Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

Hobbes

Also appears the bunker where the UN staff where held up was hit by a precision guided missile.

Bad aiming or what?!

Jimboo_Jones

Well, the cynic in me would say that this could have done to delay the likelihood of an international force being created in the near future. Thus giving Isreal more time to pound lebanon.

Jimboo_Jones

Manic Moran wrote:

Really makes one wonder what the ROEs are for UNIFIL. If I were the UN with Hezbullah that close and attracting Israeli fire, I'd probably be shooting them if I had a choice.

NTM

The UN observers where unarmed.

LostinBlanch

Manic Moran wrote:

Probably wouldn't have shown up in a thermal imager/flir. Just playing Devil's Advocate.

NTM

Manic,

I don't know if you heard Tom Clonan on the radio this morning (Newstalk) he said that all UN observation posts are lit up at night, powered by underground diesel generators. Given the situation with the majority of civilians run out of south Lebanon these are practically the only lighted structures in the landscape.

Also the Israelis have used these posts as reference points in training excercises i.e they orient themselves by sight using these observation posts. They also know the exact references of these posts (most of which have been in place for at least 30 years, others even go back as far as 1948). These references are input into the computers which guide their artillery. Tom Clonan said that the references are 12 digit references i..e. are acccurate down to the last meter.

If I was playing the Devils Advocate then I would be asking myself what is it that the IDF don't want the UN to observe?

Hobbes

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

The UN observers where unarmed.

and also in a bunker.

But LostinBlanch makes the best point. The location of this structure would be clearly known by the military even if they weren't being told over and over. Also the footage of IDF bombing single moving targets (bus of people leaving the area, a car turning into a hospital) it is quite clear if they wanted to be precise with thier targetting they could be so.

Frederico

straight from fox news..

U.S. Blocks Security Council Statement Condemning Israel for Bombing U.N. Post
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205844,00.html

Sgt. Sensible

Manic Moran wrote:

Really makes one wonder what the ROEs are for UNIFIL. If I were the UN with Hezbullah that close and attracting Israeli fire, I'd probably be shooting them if I had a choice.

NTM

Hezbollah did not attack the unarmed UN observers for hours from the ground and air, then fire on the rescue team. It was the Israelis, who have a long record of attacking UN posts in south Lebanon. Are you suggesting it's time to retaliate? Put on your devil's advocate hat for that one.

Frederico

The Israelis have no problem doing these kinda things..

About 40 years ago they attacked a US ship with unmarked jets to try the Americans into thinking they were being attacked by the Egyptians. The Americans promptly loaded an F4 with a nuke and sent it on its way to Cairo, luckily it was turned back.

cik

This is my understanding of the situation -

-4 unarmed UN observers occupied a two or three story outpost
-this outpost as well as being long established and well marked was in a vital strategic elevated position
-the most fierce fighting in the whole war was happening in this area

put your Hezbollah hat on for just a minute, you would be crazy not to exploit this position...as the firing became more intense you might even use it as refuge or maybe even exploit it as a strategic position...
Im not saying this is what happened but does that scenario make logical sense to everyone?

These 4 guys were unarmed in a relatively big compound, they would have been unable to defend it from Hezbollah - if your were in that position and if Hezbollah decide to bunk in with you what would you do? what could you do?

If, and this is the huge if, Hezbollah were in the compound would it have been justified for the IDF to target it?
If Hezbollah were directly outside the compound and abusing it would it have been justified for the IDF to target it?

Morlar

I had a feeling that sooner or later there would be assertions that it was somehow magically mystically hizbollah's fault and not israel. I am surprised the UN havent been blamed for this yet.

Calina

cik wrote:

These 4 guys were unarmed in a relatively big compound, they would have been unable to defend it from Hezbollah - if your were in that position and if Hezbollah decide to bunk in with you what would you do? what could you do?

If, and this is the huge if, Hezbollah were in the compound would it have been justified for the IDF to target it?
If Hezbollah were directly outside the compound and abusing it would it have been justified for the IDF to target it?

No. That brings them down to the levels and further of their enemies. There is no high moral ground to be gained in taking out a UN position, regardless of whether your enemies are already on the low moral ground of trying. Israel is screaming for the high moral ground all over this and then they pull a stunt like this. They knew exactly what they were doing and they are taking nowhere near as much flack for this as they should be getting.

gandalf

Well it looks like our modern day Chamberlains have give the Waffen IDF the green light to level Lebanon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

The slaughter of those UN observers was clearly designed to delay or stop the formation of an International force. The Isreali's have overstepped the mark but as long as the US (that wonderful bastion of freedom :rolleyes:) backs them up nothing will be done to them.

Whatever sympathy people would have had for them has been estingushed with this Blitzkreig being unleased on mainly innocent civilians.

They whinge about the UN doing nothing when they and the US have eroded any power the UN has had over the last 30 years by ignoring and/or blocking resolutions like the blocking of the condemnation of bombing the UN post.

Well you reap what you sow.

Sgt. Sensible

Frederico wrote:

The Israelis have no problem doing these kinda things..

About 40 years ago they attacked a US ship with unmarked jets to try the Americans into thinking they were being attacked by the Egyptians. The Americans promptly loaded an F4 with a nuke and sent it on its way to Cairo, luckily it was turned back.

I'm still waiting to find out for certain if the Israeli troops were captured on their side of the border or on the Lebanese side as Hezbollah claimed. I don't believe anything either of them say.

Calina

gandalf wrote:

Well you reap what you sow.

I just hope the rest of us don't wind up reaping what they sowed as well.

Calina

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

I'm still waiting to find out for certain if the Israeli troops were captured on their side of the border or on the Lebanese side as Hezbollah claimed. I don't believe anything either of them say.

so whose word are you going to be able to take then? I suspect you will never actually know in that case.

Morlar

Calina wrote:

I just hope the rest of us don't wind up reaping what they sowed as well.

Jesus christ - have you seen this part ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

Israel says diplomats' decision not to call for a halt to its Lebanon offensive at a Middle East summit has given it the green light to continue.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.

Speaking on Israeli army radio, Mr Ramon - a close confidant of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert - said "everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror".

He said that in order to prevent casualties amongst Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in.
. . . .
He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

Thats not from some zionist wacko settler thats their Justice minister and confidant of olmert speaking there.

cik

Calina wrote:

No. That brings them down to the levels and further of their enemies. There is no high moral ground to be gained in taking out a UN position, regardless of whether your enemies are already on the low moral ground of trying.

So it would be unacceptable for Israel to return fire on a UN compound that Hezbollah were using - I accept your opinion, I just thought that the question should be considered.
If men in UN uniforms were trying to capture IDF troops from the same border area would those IDF have the right to defend themselves by shooting the men UN uniforms?

gandalf

Calina wrote:

I just hope the rest of us don't wind up reaping what they sowed as well.

Well if our spineless government don't start checking what is on those planes coming through Shannon from the US we may have blood on our hands by helping supply precision guiding ordenance that could be used on civilians, UN observers, Red Cross workers or maybe even the odd terrorist.

But given the kill stats so far, for Isreal to "take out" the estimated 10000 Hezbollah terrorists they will have to kill approx 350,000 Lebanese civilians.

Sgt. Sensible

Calina wrote:

so whose word are you going to be able to take then? I suspect you will never actually know in that case.

Some concrete evidence would be nice. I have a suspicion that the Israeli troops that ended up killed and captured may have been sent over the border to invite a clash with Hezbollah that would provide justification for what Israel is doing now. But that's pure speculation on my part.

gandalf

cik wrote:

So it would be unacceptable for Israel to return fire on a UN compound that Hezbollah were using - I accept your opinion, I just thought that the question should be considered.
If men in UN uniforms were trying to capture IDF troops from the same border area would those IDF have the right to defend themselves by shooting the men UN uniforms?

Is there even a shread of truth in this I doubt it severely. I also am very interested that your first two posts on this thread and on boards is an attempt and a weak one at that at mis-direction.

Attempting to justify a slaughter.

cik

gandalf wrote:

Is there even a shread of truth in this I doubt it severely.

Have you read the UNFIL daily press releases?
Yesterdays, the one the covers the deaths of the four officers, says 'It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Bra****, and At Tiri.'

Have you read the report 3 days from Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie (RIP) that said Israel about this activity 'The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.'
Im not sure why he would say the IDF fired there out of tactical necessity....

gandalf wrote:

I also am very interested that your first two posts on this thread and on boards is an attempt and a weak one at that at mis-direction.

This is kind of ad hominem attack isnt it?

gandalf wrote:

Attempting to justify a slaughter.

Was I more asking questions or offering an opinion?

cik

Im sorry, it seems I made an error, Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie is the person who received the e-mail report, not the poor soldier who died.
Sorry for the coonfusion.

Jimboo_Jones

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm

'All southerners terrorists'

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

Nice, seems that if there are anyone left in the south of lebanon are terrorist, regardless of age or if they have been unable to leave. I suppose by that logic the killing of the UN observers fits nicely in.

fly_agaric

gandalf wrote:

The Isreali's have overstepped the mark but as long as the US (that wonderful bastion of freedom :rolleyes:) backs them up nothing will be done to them.

It is quite incredible and amazing to me.
Apart from the usual support of Israel (which we would always expect) it seems that the current US admin. actually views this war as an interesting experiment cooking up in the Middle East which it has no intention of trying to call a halt to. I suppose Iraq should have given me a warning about what a bunch of absolute crackpots and fruit-n-nuts we have running "the Free World" at present.

Morlar

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm

Nice, seems that if there are anyone left in the south of lebanon are terrorist, regardless of age or if they have been unable to leave. I suppose by that logic the killing of the UN observers fits nicely in.

They have just said in black and white that their intention is to flatten civilian areas- -no doubt 10 seconds afterwards their apologists in israel will hit the web and try and blame hizbollah /UN/ biased media etc etc etc

cik

Morlar wrote:

I had a feeling that sooner or later there would be assertions that it was somehow magically mystically hizbollah's fault and not israel. I am surprised the UN havent been blamed for this yet.

How can you be so sure of the fact one day after the event?
What other sacred cows are not allowed to be questioned?

Have you read the UNFIL press releases in recent days?
and the Canadian Major Generals information that he had received from the deceased soldier 3 days before he died?

What other sacred cows are not allowed to be questioned?

Sgt. Sensible

It's going spectacularly bad for the Israelis. They should have rolled over Hezbollah by now and they know it. Even if they do ethnically cleanse southern Lebanon and create a "buffer zone", hezbollah can still pull back and keep firing 100 rockets a day at their positions. Their only options then are to retreat or get sucked deeper into Lebanon.

gandalf

cik wrote:

Have you read the UNFIL daily press releases?
Yesterdays, the one the covers the deaths of the four officers, says 'It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Bra****, and At Tiri.'

Have you read the report 3 days from Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie (RIP) that said Israel about this activity 'The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.'
Im not sure why he would say the IDF fired there out of tactical necessity....

And the link to this report is where. And regardless of the fact they stated this the IDF were well aware that the post was occupied by UN personel and they still dropped a precision munition on it. It was a slaughter no matter how much they and you state otherwise.

This is kind of ad hominem attack isnt it?

That is my opinion as a moderator here.

Was I more asking questions or offering an opinion?

No you are quite obviously asking loaded questions with an agenda.

Now get that link up.

cik

gandalf wrote:

And the link to this report is where.

OK I'll try give you the links, here are the UNFIL reports, its worth reading all of them from the last days, but yesterday is the one I referred to
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

this is the report from the Canadian
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

gandalf wrote:

And regardless of the fact they stated this the IDF were well aware that the post was occupied by UN personel and they still dropped a precision munition on it. It was a slaughter no matter how much they and you state otherwise.

So lets be clear, are you totally confident that no matter what 100% of the blame lies with the Israelis and 0% lies with Hezbollah?
Im asking for clarification (not putting words in your mouth)
as as far as I can see you didnt answer my original question directly

gandalf wrote:

That is my opinion as a moderator here.

Fair enough I thought you were trying to take away from the merit of my questions because it was I, a newbie, who posted them

gandalf wrote:

No you are quite obviously asking loaded questions with an agenda.

I am asking them because I think that it is useful to do so, people seem to think that there is no way that such a think could be justified Im checking how fully thought through that conviction is.

wes

keano_afc wrote:

Sorry wes but Islam does preach violence. Its the reason for its existence. The extermination of Israel and the conversion of the whole world, by any means possible, is the message of Islam. It makes me mad that the world is so blind to this murderous cult. How else can you interpret verses that encourage followers to kill unbelievers?

What and people haven't used the Bible as an excuse to kill people? Not every Muslim wants to kill people, its a small number of fanatics. The message of Islam is peace and some others use it to inspire violence.

Religion through out history has been used to inspire violence. You can't single out one religiona and say its a murderous cult. I would say Christinanity is a murderous cult, because some Chiristians have murdered people. Your generalisation is insulting to peaceful Muslims.