Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

Morlar

cik wrote:

and out comes the strawman

Make that 423 dead Lebanese

Manic Moran

cik wrote:

So it merely just comes down to tactical necessity - some times ot would be justified - I think this was the most covet post in the region?

It seems to be, but there are other ways of dealing with the problem.

Given that Israel has commenced open ground operations a few miles into Lebanon, I think it quite likely that the weight of the IDF would be capable of taking and holding the hill using direct fire and an infantry assault. Unless there were a particular reason that any Hezbullah fighters using the UN position as a cover must be removed right now (eg, they're laying down accurate mortar fire from that position, or some such), I don't think it would be required to put UN personnel at risk and add the subsequent political problems. This is all, of course, on the assumption that Hezbullah were indeed using the UN position as a shield.

Which now I think of it brings up the more conspiratorial issue of deliberate targetting to conceal future Israeli moves: The same result could again be obtained for much less political fallout by simply driving up and taking control of the hill instead of obliterating it.

NTM

Jimboo_Jones

Manic Moran wrote:

Unless there were a particular reason that any Hezbullah fighters using the UN position as a cover must be removed right now (eg, they're laying down accurate mortar fire from that position, or some such)
NTM

which doesn't tie up with your earlier statement

Manic Moran wrote:

There is the thought that if Israel really did want the UN compound destroyed, it wouldn't have taken them 6 hours to do it.

I really don't have a clue what happend, it does smell of something rather nasty though.

And heres another thought, if it was an accident, with all the signposts, warnings etc. Then what hope is there for the civ population in that area. Of course Isreal has said that everyone in the south is a terrorist, regardless of age etc, so I guess that solves the problem for them.

banaman

Don't know if this helps, but it suggests a background of grab and counter grab followed by negotiations.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060731&s=nasrallah_game

tallus

banaman wrote:

Don't know if this helps, but it suggests a background of grab and counter grab followed by negotiations.
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060731&s=nasrallah_game

I assumed they were going to try to use them as bargaining tools to get palestinians released from Israeli jails.

Manic Moran

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

which doesn't tie up with your earlier statement

How so? I'm not saying it was the case, I was merely making a hypothesis were that the case. I would have thought that if Hezbullah were actually lobbing mortars from close by the UN compound, someone in the compound might have thought to tell their superiors and we'd know about it, so I don't believe the hypothesis has practical application in this particular case.

NTM

cik

Manic Moran wrote:

How so? I'm not saying it was the case, I was merely making a hypothesis were that the case. I would have thought that if Hezbullah were actually lobbing mortars from close by the UN compound, someone in the compound might have thought to tell their superiors and we'd know about it, so I don't believe the hypothesis has practical application in this particular case.

NTM

STILL SPECTUALATING
You would think so wouldnt you? but the UN are neutral in the fight, they have mentioned Hezbollah firing from the vicinity of their outposts in recent days but thats it - a press release seems to be the price of that valuable cover...
Previously when its all gone FUBAR the UN has, lets say, not been quick to come up with the truth...
In Schrenbrica the soldiers went home and were not quick to tell about the massacre they let happen...now that you would think we would here about the next day!
When UN Indian troops witnessed Hezbollah (dressed as UN troops) kidnapping IDF troops in 2000 they did nothing and initially denied having video footage of the event or witnessing anything and preformed a investagtion that was so close to a cover up it was shocking...but the real eye opener was admitting to having the video tape (after some was destroyed I think) but refusing to give it to the Israelis because they were neutral between the IDF and Hezbollah - when they finally were coercied into giving it up they blocked out the faces of the Hezbollah guys dressed up as UN troops!!!


First of all Kofi was sure it was deliberate, then he calmed down a bit and restated that he accepted the Israeli position...that is partly why I dont think its open and shut...unlike some people I will reserve judgement for now

Jimboo_Jones

Manic Moran wrote:

How so? NTM

just that one statement you are saying that if they wanted the base destorying, they would'nt have taken 6 hours to do it. Then the next statement is that they may have needed to take it out stright away.

cik wrote:

STILL SPECTUALATING

Well it is a forum and thats kind of what we do on them.

My speculation is that the IDF want all the UN observers out of the area so they can have a completely free hand in what they are doing. I think that they probably thought that the UN observers had ran off after 6 hours of bombing ... I really can not believe that even the IDF would blow up 4 unarmed UN observers, but I also do not think that they are so incompetent that they did it completly on error.

Of course this will mean that the international force for the area will take longer to get together.

It's a shame that one of the budding democracies which was becoming more moderate is under attack, I will be bet anything that the anti-isreal parties will gain in their next election.

I will also think that as one of the UN observers was from China that the chances of getting them to agree to take a tough line against Iran may be a bit harder now.

Morlar

cik wrote:

Previously when its all gone FUBAR the UN has, lets say, not been quick to come up with the truth...
In Schrenbrica the soldiers went home and were not quick to tell about the massacre they let happen...now that you would think we would here about the next day!

You mentioned that the UN were unable to prevent massacres in other missions in the past but is that really a road you want to go down ?

How many massacres did they actually facilitate, encourage or carry out ? Now compare their human rights record to that of the IDF if your not sure.

nuttz

cik wrote:

First of all Kofi was sure it was deliberate, then he calmed down a bit and restated that he accepted the Israeli position...that is partly why I dont think its open and shut...unlike some people I will reserve judgement for now

It is very possible that the UN post was targeted by Israel as a means of deterring the UN countries from keeping their troops in the area or deploying more troops there.

Manic Moran

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

just that one statement you are saying that if they wanted the base destorying, they would'nt have taken 6 hours to do it. Then the next statement is that they may have needed to take it out stright away.

OK, must have been a misinterpretation then. I was saying that there could theoretically be a situation which would involve a need to have it taken out straight away, and if so, they could have done it easily enough. I was not saying that that was the case in this instance, because I have no data to go on.

NTM

Sand

Sample quotes from Gandalf:

it looks like our modern day Chamberlains have give the Waffen IDF the green light to level Lebanon....Whatever sympathy people would have had for them has been estingushed with this Blitzkreig ..... Isreal gets to continue its genocidial blizkrieg of Lebanon uniterupted ..... It was a slaughter no matter how much they and you state otherwise.

Thank you I will look at them [Links to UN reports of Hizbollah using UN positions as shields and retired Canadian peackeeper citing communication with dead Canadian UN observer on Hizbollah in the vicinty of their position].

With an open mind, right Gandalf?

Ok read the report and it did not say that Hezbollah were firing from the vicinity of Khiyam

Thats the intriguing thing. All mention of the fighting around Khiyam has vanished from reports of the deaths of the UN observers. Ive only seen it mentioned once, in the news report cited back on Page 35 or so, that the Israeli shelling/bombing was against Hizbullah positions around Khiyam. This little nugget of information has completely vanished from any news report Ive seen today in the papers or the BBC website. I suppose the proper lack of context is required for this story.

Well you reap what you sow.

This is unfortunately true. Hizbullah, and the people of Lebanon are suffering for the attacks on Israel. You do indeed reap what you sow. A shame there was no priority on disarming Hizbollah back in 2000 as was agreed as part of the IDF withdrawal from South Lebanon.

It is very possible that the UN post was targeted by Israel as a means of deterring the UN countries from keeping their troops in the area or deploying more troops there.

The UN position reported near hits 14 times over the 48 hours prior to the direct hit. This is not beyond reason given that South Lebanon is a war zone, there was fighting going on around Khiyam and Hizbollah often operate very close to UN positions. As Manic Moran has already noted, if they wanted to destroy the UN position they could have done so far faster with the firepower available to them. Never assume malice when mere incompetence will suffice to explain?

nuttz

Sand wrote:

Never assume malice when mere incompetence will suffice to explain?

It could be mere incompetence that it took them 6 hours to hit the target, how long has the post been there, I think someone mentioned two years.

fly_agaric

Sand wrote:

This little nugget of information has completely vanished from any news report Ive seen today in the papers or the BBC website. I suppose the proper lack of context is required for this story.

All I see being given any prominence (1 link in from the top story) on bbc news at the moment (8pm) is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm

"The report says there was fierce fighting in the area for about six hours before the post was hit"

Sgt. Sensible

fly_agaric wrote:

All I see being given any prominence (1 link in from the top story) on bbc news at the moment (8pm) is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm

"The report says there was fierce fighting in the area for about six hours before the post was hit"

Also that "Our correspondent says the UN claims that after each call [to the IDF], it was assured the firing would stop."

Manic Moran

As an aside, some of the God Squad on other fora I frequent are viewing the discovery of that ancient manuscript in the Irish Midlands last week open at Psalm 83 (A lament to God that other countries are trying to destroy Israel) as a Sign of the Righteousness of the Israeli Cause.

"A religous war is like two people arguing over who's got the best imaginary friend." Can't remember who said that.

NTM

tallus

nuttz wrote:

It could be mere incompetence that it took them 6 hours to hit the target, how long has the post been there, I think someone mentioned two years.

It's there at least 20 years according to a mate of mine who is currently a serving member of our rdf.

Bookee

What's this about "Friendly Fire" amongst the Israelis... ?

Carcharodon

I read through most of this thread and found it very interesting, the different opinions and perspectives.

I was wondering if anyone has a good link to something or even a book that would break down the whole situation that has come about over the past few centuries.
Israel has always come across as the bad guy but i would like to see how the whole middle east crissis arrose.

Manic Moran

You can have the short version, or the long version.

The Long Version probably wouldn't fit in the Encylopaedia Britannica.

The short version goes like this.

"We are God's chosen people, our view of God is the True one, and God has chosen us to live on this land"

"The hell he did. We are God's chosen, and this is our holy land."

"Fat chance"

"Sod off"

*Biff* *Splat* *Bam*

etc.

NTM

LostinBlanch

Carcharodon,

you could do worse than read some Leon Uris.

Exodus: Covers the founding of Israel. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553258478/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-7664886-3884631?ie=UTF8

The Haj: His version of the Palestinian viewpoint. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553248642/103-7664886-3884631?v=glance&n=283155. This has drawn some complaints about it's portrayal of arabs. But maybe you can read it and make your own mind up.

Trinity: This is what he cosidered his best book (it's all about us).http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553248642/103-7664886-3884631?v=glance&n=283155

They're big books (exodus and The Haj are abetween 500 - 600 pages) but don't let that put you off. They are well written and he really tries to get inside the mindset of everyone involved.

I'd recommend his books to anyone interested in trying to understand how things have come to the state they are now.

Dirk Gently

Carcharodon wrote:

I was wondering if anyone has a good link to something or even a book that would break down the whole situation that has come about over the past few centuries.

If you find an unbiased book with no obvious slant on it please let me know. History is written by the victors and countered by the victims. It might be a case where you will have to read several different accounts and then use your own judgment to decide what it is you want to believe. Looking into the past is very necessary but it shouldn't cloud judgment when trying to find a solution for the present and future. Learn from history, don’t repeat its mistakes.

Tbh I think manic morans account in the post above is probably the best I've read. After about 10 years having an interest in politics and history and reading material constantly over that period of time I think manics account pretty much sums up the Israeli conflict better than any long winded and opinionated books I've ever read. (well not quite but it is an accurate if only very basic account none the less)

metrovelvet

Manic Moran wrote:

You can have the short version, or the long version.

The Long Version probably wouldn't fit in the Encylopaedia Britannica.

The short version goes like this.

"We are God's chosen people, our view of God is the True one, and God has chosen us to live on this land"

"The hell he did. We are God's chosen, and this is our holy land."

"Fat chance"

"Sod off"

*Biff* *Splat* *Bam*

etc.

NTM

Lol. I think we should give them all porkchops to throw at each other. And if that doesn't work bring in the menstruating women.

tallus

I read a few of Uris's books when I was younger, Battle cry and Mila 18 both excellent reads. My old man was a big fan of Leon heh

LordSutch

I know it sounds strange for an Irish person to be "Pro-Israeli" but believe me when I say I am 100% behind Israel, having lived & worked there for a whole year back in the late 80s. I can sympathise/ empathise with the Israelis cause 100%, there was feuding and a history between them & their neighbours back in the 80s just as there is today! (you can either take one side or the other), but I am firmly on the side of Israel because of my contacts & friendship with them over the years.

Six years ago the IDF vacated Lebanon on the basis that the vacuum would be filled (either by the Lebanese army or the UN) or whatever, as long as South Lebanon was safe and not a Threat to the State of Israel & I say "fair enough I say to that" but Six years later.................... Hezbollah have been deliberately spoiling for a fight (correct) by killing eight Israeli soldiers & by kidnapping another two + firing rockets into Northern Israel & by generally asking for trouble.

So what should Israel do then? keep taking this crapp from Hisbolla or turn the other cheek maybe? considering that Hezbollah & the Lebanese authorities were firmly warned over the six years that there would be serious concequences if Hisbolla filled the vacuum once again & posed a threat to the security of Israel .................

So finally, in my opinion, the sooner Hisbolla are 'cleaned out' lock stock and barrell the better for all concerned (especially the decent law abiding citizens of Lebannon) who are unwitting Hezbollah Pawns!

A Dub in Glasgo

Manic Moran wrote:

You can have the short version, or the long version.

The Long Version probably wouldn't fit in the Encylopaedia Britannica.

The short version goes like this.

"We are God's chosen people, our view of God is the True one, and God has chosen us to live on this land"

"The hell he did. We are God's chosen, and this is our holy land."

"Fat chance"

"Sod off"

*Biff* *Splat* *Bam*

etc.

NTM

Very good lol

God (who does not exist) has a lot to answer for!

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote:

I know it sounds strange for an Irish person to be "Pro-Israeli" but believe me when I say I am 100% behind Israel, having lived & worked there for a whole year back in the late 80s. I can sympathise/ empathise with the Israelis cause 100%, there was feuding & a history between them back in the 80s just as there is today (and you can either take one side or the other), but I am firmly on the side of Israel because of my contacts & friendship with them over the years.

Six years ago the IDF vacated Lebanon on the basis that the vacuum would be filled (either by the Lebanonese army or the UN) or whatever, as long as South Lebanon was safe and not a Threat to the State of Israel & I say "fair enough I say to that"
but Six years later.................... Hezbollah have been deliberately spoiling for a fight (correct) by killing eight Israeli soldiers & by kidnapping another two + firing rockets into Northern Israel & by generally asking for trouble.

So what should Israel do then? keep taking this crapp from Hisbolla or turn the other cheek maybe? considering that Hezbollah & the Lebanese authorities were firmly warned over the six years that there would be serious concequences if Hisbolla filled the vacuum once again & posed a threat to the security of Israel .................

So finally, in my opinion, the sooner Hisbolla are 'cleaned out' lock stock and barrell the better for all concerned (especially the decent law abiding citizens of Lebannon) who are unwitting Hezbollah Pawns!

100% behind the slaughter of innocent people including women & children?

Dirk Gently

ArthurF wrote:

(and you can either take one side or the other)

or you can do the sensible thing and not take sides but instead praise and encourage anyone who makes positive progressive moves and protest and condemn anyone who is counter productive and killing innocent people. When you "pick a side" you leave yourself open to having to defend actions taken by your chosen side that are wrong because if you don’t defend your side when its wrong then you will become an enemy sympathiser in the eyes of your chose side.

bounty

if i was president of israel, i'd invade, occupy and regime change those lebanese terrorists

Bookee

ArthurF wrote:

I am 100% behind Israel, having lived & worked there for a whole year back in the late 80s

Then surely you can't have BALANCED view unless you've also lived & worked in Lebanon/Palestine....? !!:)