Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

tallus

bounty wrote:

if i was president of israel, i'd invade, occupy and regime change those lebanese terrorists

Isn't that what's happening there right now?

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

100% behind the slaughter of innocent people including women & children?

A crass & childish response ..............please read 'My' last sentence again.

Bookee

[QUOTE=bounty those lebanese terrorists[/QUOTE]

...So ALL Lebanese are Terrorists .... ?
That must mean (in your world) that all Irish are "Terrorists" (thanks George foe re-introducing that word.....!) :rolleyes:

LordSutch

Bookee wrote:

Then surely you can't have BALANCED view unless you've also lived & worked in Lebanon/Palestine....? !!:)

I dont claim to have a balanced view, but what I am tryng to do is to 'counterbalance' all the Pro-Hizbolla propaganda swanning around this thread & the Irish media in general ........

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote:

A crass & childish response ..............please read 'My' last sentence again.

An apt question imo. If you are 100% supporting of Israel, you must be 100% behind their current slaughter of civilians? If you are not 100% supporting of their slaughter, how can you be 100% supporting of Israel?

bounty

Bookee wrote:

...So ALL Lebanese are Terrorists .... ?
That must mean (in your world) that all Irish are "Terrorists" (thanks George foe re-introducing that word.....!) :rolleyes:

yea bookee

Bookee

ArthurF wrote:

I dont claim to have a balanced view, but what I am tryng to do is to 'counterbalance' all the Pro-Hizbolla propaganda swanning around this thread & the Irish media in general ........

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote:

I dont claim to have a balanced view, but what I am tryng to do is to 'counterbalance' all the Pro-Hizbolla propaganda swanning around this thread & the Irish media in general ........

Condemning Israeli slaughter of civilians is pro-hizbolla? Show us how?

Bookee

bounty wrote:

yea bookee

.....Whatever....

Bookee

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Condemning Israeli slaughter of civilians is pro-hizbolla? Show us how?

He's dissagreeing, for the sake of it - Because he knows a couple of Israelis ... Fair enough :rolleyes:

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Condemning Israeli slaughter of civilians is pro-hizbolla? Show us how?

Nobody said that Condemming Israeli slaughter of civilians was Pro-hizbolla!

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote:

Nobody said that Condemming Israeli slaughter of civilians was Pro-hizbolla!

Ok show examples of the 'Pro-Hizbolla propaganda swanning around this thread & the Irish media in general' that led you to offer your 100% support of Israel.

LordSutch

There is, and always has been a general air of Anti-Israeli sentiment in this State and well you know it, or do you want to argue that point also?
I have read plenty of Anti Israeli letters in the papers, I have heard Pro-Hizbolla remarks in the pub, & comments along the lines that the Israeil's need 'pay back' and I might also point out, that if one takes the time to trawl throught this thread alone, you will definately find plenty of "Anti- Israeli" guff .................. which in effect is "Pro" their current enemy in Lebannon, namely (Hizbolla)!

A Dub in Glasgo

So no examples then? If a poster posts an anti-Israeli comment (I presume this includes being anti killing civilians), does that make the poster pro-hizbolla?

Guys please discuss the pro's and cons of the war rather than the likes and dislikes and/or political leanings of the posters here.
Thats not what this thread should be about.
Please make some effort to remain on topic.

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

So no examples then? If a poster posts an anti-Israeli comment (I presume this includes being anti killing civilians), does that make the poster pro-hizbolla?

I have said what I have said in previous comments, if in doubt read them again ~ nuff said.

Slainte70

Some previous posts have gone a little bit further than just being anti-israel/anti killing civilians comments....

Down with Zionazi terror against the Palestinians.

Unless this changes Israel will drag the world into WW3 in the name of creating a "Greater Israel/Israeli Reich".

The Nazis believed in territorial expansion - like Israel. The Nazis believed in killing the peoples of the occupied territory - which Israel does. The Nazis were anti-semitic and the Israeli state is anti-Arab. Israel is behaving with a Herrenvolk mentality and is the modern version of Nazi Germany

nuttz

ArthurF wrote:

There is, and always has been a general air of Anti-Israeli sentiment in this State and well you know it, or do you want to argue that point also?
I have read plenty of Anti Israeli letters in the papers, I have heard Pro-Hizbolla remarks in the pub, & comments along the lines that the Israeil's need 'pay back' and I might also point out, that if one takes the time to trawl throught this thread alone, you will definately find plenty of "Anti- Israeli" guff .................. which in effect is "Pro" their current enemy in Lebannon, namely (Hizbolla)!

That's a grand statement "a general air of Anti-Israeli sentiment in this State" and where are you from Arthur?

I disagree with your rather presumptuous assumption that most people in this republic are anti Israeli, and Pro-Hizbollah, how did you come to that conclusion? Is it because we have some experience of conflict and it might be possible for us to see the wood from the trees with regard to this conflict.

There is plenty of opposition to Israel's actions, the reasons for this are well documented in the press, in the recent weeks as well in the press in the recent years. It has been obvious over the years where the US stood with regard to Israel, and them supplying Israel with weapons, (even illegal weapons as it turns out).

Open your eyes, the rest of Europe are also against Israel on this one, wake up and smell the bacon.

It's not often I am motivated by political issues but this just annoys me.
Israel has again overstepped the mark.

Hobbes

which in effect is "Pro" their current enemy in Lebannon, namely (Hizbolla)!

The world doesn't work like that. You can be anti both sides you know. The problem is that Israel forever prides itself as a kind of "Western Culture" in the middle east.

You have innocent people dying on TV while Israel says "So what", you have the US greenlighting it and Bushes comment of "This is just US policy in action".

How do you think that portrays the rest of the western world?

Israel has long since lost the good guy label in what is going on in the middle east. There is no pro/anti, there are just two sides totally fuked up and a large number of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.

The only difference is hizbollah are called terrorists yet Israels actions have been the exact same.

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

The short version goes like this.

Which is horribly wrong btw. Leaving out the whole fact that Jewish, Christians and Muslims lived in peace in the middle east some time back.

LostinBlanch

ArthurF wrote:

I have heard Pro-Hizbolla remarks in the pub

Does anyone else find this remark ironic?

LostinBlanch

I couldn't get to sleep last night so ended up watching BBC news, they switched over to an American Channel ABC I think. Anyway this reporter was doing a piece on the high tech approach that the Israelis take to the war. In it he explained that the Israelis have computer generated 3 D models of the entire south of Lebanon including all buildings. The camera then showed portion of this model and it was extremely detailed. They concentrated on the head of Hizbollahs family home saying how many rooms there were etc.

I found it a real eye opener, but it got me wondering how they could then claim that the UN observation post at Khiam was hit by mistake. Then I heard a report that the Israelis said that the UN wasn't going to be privy to the "investigation" into the attack.

Sgt. Sensible

LostinBlanch wrote:

Does anyone else find this remark ironic?

Blow up that pub.

sovtek

LostinBlanch wrote:

I found it a real eye opener, but it got me wondering how they could then claim that the UN observation post at Khiam was hit by mistake. Then I heard a report that the Israelis said that the UN wasn't going to be privy to the "investigation" into the attack.

They shelled the UN post and then were told they were shelling a UN post...then bombed it, killing four people...then attacked the rescue team. Of course there is no evidence it was deliberate.

bonkey

LostinBlanch wrote:

I found it a real eye opener, but it got me wondering how they could then claim that the UN observation post at Khiam was hit by mistake. Then I heard a report that the Israelis said that the UN wasn't going to be privy to the "investigation" into the attack.

I'm guessing they can claim what they claim and refuse to allow others take part in the investigation because it would match pretty-much identically with what the US did the last time it accidentally bombed UN facilities.

As a general rule, any time you hear the Israeli claim of discrimination because "other nations" would not have these demands made on them, you can replace "other nations" with "America", and "would not" with "did not, when it did the exact same thing".

What is overlooked is that the people doing the criticising almost-certainly offered the same criticism of US actions at the time. Just because nothing was done then in lieu of said criticism doesn't mean it is hypocritical or discriminatory in any way for the same people to level the same criticism at Israel for the same actions.

A simple example - I maintained at the time that invading Afghanistan in response to an act of terrorism carried out against the US was unjustified. I maintain that an Israeli invasion of Lebanon in response to what is arguably an act of terrorism also unjustified. Just because no international body took sanctions against the US doesn't make me Anti-Israeli, nor make my criticism in any way discriminatory.

jc

zen63

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf

One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa. He was operated on, and his condition is now reported as stable.

In this instance, the UN observer was injured badly enough to be evacuated to an Israeli hospital. Where they saved his life.

---

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf

This morning, Hezbollah opened small arms fire at a UNIFIL convoy consisting of two armored personnel carriers (APC) on the road between Kunin and Bint Jubayl. There was some damage to the APCs, but no casualties, and the convoy was obliged to return to Kunin.

If you read this thread you would be under the impression only Israel did this :rolleyes:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf

There were three incidents of firing close to UN positions in the last 24 hours from the Israeli side. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Marwahin, Alma Ash Shab, Bra****, and At Tiri.

What should Israel do, just ignore the attacks because Hezbollah are using UN positions?

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf

Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Bra****, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.

It is sad to see innocent people get killed for any reason. I wonder why we dont hear in the mainstream media the PROVEN fact that Hezbollah are using the UN and their citizens as human shields.

Media bias, just like the bias displayed by some posters on here?

zen63

Report from one of the actual UN soldier in Lebanon:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060719/

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

The soldiers who are getting shot at can acknowledge that its a necessity, i wonder why some people on here are blind to this?

Hobbes

zen63 wrote:

It is sad to see innocent people get killed for any reason. I wonder why we dont hear in the mainstream media the PROVEN fact that Hezbollah are using the UN and their citizens as human shields.

Actually doesn't prove that at all. All it mentions is that they were firing in and around the area of a UN base, as was the IDF. Btw there have also been reports of IDF using actual human shields.

Media bias, just like the bias displayed by some posters on here?

Define a human shield? For example IDF turned a housing estate area about the size of Tallaght into a car park up in North Lebanon. There was a report of Hizbollah being in that area, however it was something like a couple of houses and they had already evacuated.

Now would you consider all the other people who didn't evacuate human shields?

Likewise the UN people were in a Bunker under the building as the IDF had been shelling the place for hours and then finally flew in a bomber to finish the job.

Would you define that as being human shields? Get real.

The soldiers who are getting shot at can acknowledge that its a necessity, i wonder why some people on here are blind to this?

So how was dropping bombs into beruit a necessity?

zen63

It does give a differing viewpoint to the one be passed around here.

Kind of stands to reason that if Hezbollah are firing from 'the vicinity' of UN positions, that they will be targeted.

There was a insightful radio show where a Canadian military friend of one of the dead UN soildiers talked about an e-mail his friend sent before dying:

http://www.cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

Sounds like a human shield, died like a human shield - could it be ...... a human shield?

Then again - pictures like this one show just how close Hezbollah are to the UN:

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/upload/2006/07/flags.jpg

On the Beiruit issue - i didnt mention it - I was talking about the UN posts.

bonkey

zen63 wrote:

If you read this thread you would be under the impression only Israel did this :rolleyes:

You've lost me. You post a quote, which mentions Hizbollah and not Israel doing something, but say that one gets the impression that only Israel is being accused here????

How on earth do you make that out? You are disproving your own claims, or are you suggesting that if we read this thread and leave out what people like yourself are saying, then it becomes clear that only one side is being blamed?

It seems to me that there is no shortage of people trynig to make out that one side or the other is completely in the right and the other is completely in the wrong. Neither side has a monopoly on such viewpoints. Ironically, it is only these types of people who seem to be throwing around accusations of bias.

What should Israel do, just ignore the attacks because Hezbollah are using UN positions?

Ask the UN to give up their positions because they cannot guarantee their safety, and inform them that whether or not they do, they have a maximum of X amount of time after which Israel will not be held accountable for their safety?

I wonder why we dont hear in the mainstream media the PROVEN fact that Hezbollah are using the UN and their citizens as human shields.

What about the allegations that the IDF have been usnig similar tactics with civilians? Do you agree these should equally be reported in the mainstream media? After all, we wouldn't want any bias now, would we?