Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

Hobbes

zen63 wrote:

Kind of stands to reason that if Hezbollah are firing from 'the vicinity' of UN positions, that they will be targeted.

Define vicinity? How close do they have to be

Sounds like a human shield, died like a human shield - could it be ...... a human shield?

Sounds like you have no clue. A human shield is a person put in the way of your current infrastructure or you to take the damage first. During the shelling time there were no reports of Hizbollah within the UN compound.

Then again - pictures like this one show just how close Hezbollah are to the UN:

Wow a flag close to another. Do you even have a context to that picture?

On the Beiruit issue - i didnt mention it - I was talking about the UN posts.

I know, you neglected to leave it out. I will ask again, how was bombing Beruit a necessity?

Here is a list of what IDF have destroyed to date. Feel free to find some reason as to how destroying these stops rocket attacks

Beirut International Airport
Qaleiat domestic Airport
Rayak military Airport

Beirut Port
Tripoli Port
Jounieh Port

Beirut Lighthouse

Bridges: 62
Fuel stations: 22
Overpasses: 72
Dams: 3
Roads: 600km

Lebonese Military
Radar installations: 4
Army barracks: 1

Civilian
Private homes: 5,000

Commercial
Tissue paper factory, Bekaa
Bottle factory, Bekaa
Other businesses: 150

Communications
Hezbollah's al-Manar TV station, Haret Hreik, Beirut
MTC mobile phone antenna, Dahr al-Baidar
Utilities
Jiyeh power plant
Sibline power station
Sewage plant, Dair al-Zahrani

People dead
425 Lebenese (confirmed, estimates are higher) Of that around 100 or less are actual Hizbollah and a large number of those are children.
51 Israelis, 18 of those civilians.

The rocket attacks are taking place from the south of Lebanon, yet bomb attacks have been all over the country, and still Hizbollah are continuing to fire rockets.

Please feel free to try and apologize/explain how all this is justified.

[edit] I am sure this will try and be spun as "you love hizbollah". The fact of the matter is I think that the IDF are as much terrorists as Hizbollah are. Only they have better weapons.

zen63

Ask the UN to give up their positions because they cannot guarantee their safety, and inform them that whether or not they do, they have a maximum of X amount of time after which Israel will not be held accountable for their safety?

It would be nice if Hezbollah would be agreeable and stop shooting from these positions in the mean time. To summarise your point, Israel should wait, get shot at for a while, then attack? Hezbollah in the mean time, should be allowed to do as they want?

Hmmmmmm history repeating, wasnt the same asked when Israel left Lebanon?

What about the allegations that the IDF have been usnig similar tactics with civilians? Do you agree these should equally be reported in the mainstream media? After all, we wouldn't want any bias now, would we?

Ohhhhhhhh allegations, like the ones that residents in the southern towns have had gun fights with Hezbollah becuase they are not being allowed to leave their towns? Or like the ones that tell of the UN being unable to enter towns to verify the situation, becuase Hezbollah is blocking access? Perhaps the one that the photos of ambulances are being staged for the media?

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

I know, you neglected to leave it out. I will ask again, how was bombing Beruit a necessity?

Hobbes, it was you that introduced Beruit. Zen63 didn't even mention Beruit until you did, so how did he neglect to leave it out?

zen63

Define vicinity? How close do they have to be

Well 3 meters, as in the news report I pasted. There are other which go so far as to say they share phone lines and other resources.

The Saint

zen63 wrote:

It would be nice if Hezbollah would be agreeable and stop shooting from these positions in the mean time. To summarise your point, Israel should wait, get shot at for a while, then attack? Hezbollah in the mean time, should be allowed to do as they want?

How about if the IDF was going to bomb this position then they shouldn't have repeatedly told the UN observers that that they would stop shelling their position when requested by the UN observers. As Bonkey already said, if Israel were to continue shelling the UN position for whatever reason they should have made the UN observers aware of this during one of the many phone calls betwwen the IDF and UN observers. This however was not the case. They told the UN observers repeatedly that the shelling would stop.

The fact that Hezbollah were operating in around the UN outpost does not explain why the position was targeted when the IDF told the UN observers that it wouldn't be and then was.

I still don't get how you manage to mistakenly directly hit a position with a precision guided missile. Apparantly the outpost was there for around 20 years and is on all Israeli military maps. I'm not saying that it was deliberatly done and I'll reserve jusdement until more information comes out. I'm not holding out too much hope for the IDF's internal inquiry. Internal inquiries generally and Istaeli specifically are generally seen as whitewashes.

The IDF generally don't have a good record anyway when it comes to hitting UN positions and ambulances.

Morlar

zen63 wrote:

There are other which go so far as to say they share phone lines and other resources.

You have just hinted that the UN are in collaboration with the hisbollah (sharing phone lines and other resources) - do you have a shred of proof for that ?

Or are you just trying to misdirect people here by planting doubts as to the independence of the UN by saying - 'well you know - some people say . .. '

Proof on that ? Any links to your sources ? Or is this something you overheard in a cafe somewhere.

Jimboo_Jones

zen63 wrote:

I

Ohhhhhhhh allegations, like the ones that residents in the southern towns have had gun fights with Hezbollah becuase they are not being allowed to leave their towns? Or like the ones that tell of the UN being unable to enter towns to verify the situation, becuase Hezbollah is blocking access? Perhaps the one that the photos of ambulances are being staged for the media?

maybe he ment the allegations that came from Gaza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5212870.stm

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Hobbes, it was you that introduced Beruit. Zen63 didn't even mention Beruit until you did, so how did he neglect to leave it out?

Because I asked him. He is going on about how UN are being used as human shields, so by that defination every attack by Israel on innocent civilians has been because they are human shields?

The suggestion is laughable. The fact of the matter was the UN bunker told IDF forces for hours that they were attacking too close to them. The UN guys where held up in a bunker while this was going on which was offering protection from the shelling until the IDF decieded to send in bombers with precision bombs.

Also if you read the reports you posted you would see that the UN guys where basically trapped in the compound due to IDF fighting and the fact that the IDF had blown out all the nearby infrastructures (roads/bridges).

Well 3 meters, as in the news report I pasted. There are other which go so far as to say they share phone lines and other resources.

You mean a report by a single Canadian solider. Which incidently you can be punished for using the UN as human shields despite what he said.

Btw can you post links to the sharing phone lines and resources.

Oh and if you go through all the PDFs from where you posted from you can see that UN where asking for resources to pull out for days while Israel where bombing the infrastructure around them and even near them.

You will also find that a large number of the people inside the various compounds are refugees from neighbouring villages.

zen63

Sorry to be glib hobbes, but I strongly suspect that the missiles don’t grow on trees in southern Lebanon. They are brought into the country along various routes, they are subsequently moved along other routes, and serviced using resources. These routes and resources are called infrastructure. That accounts for most of what you pasted.

The private homes are another matter, but I place the root blame for this on Hezbollah for 'embedding' with normal citizens. I also blame UNIFIL for completely failing to remove the threat of these missiles from the south, and to oust Hezbollah when Israel left. Let’s not forget, without Hezbollah this war would not be happening, and no one would be dying - can you at least agree on that?

Wow a flag close to another. Do you even have a context to that picture?

Yes it is a picture from an editorial Wall Street Journal of a UN border Post which has a Hezbollah post right next to it.

The U.N.'s years-long record on the Israel-Lebanon border makes mockery of the term "peacekeeping." On page 155 of my book, "Inside the Asylum," is a picture of a U.N. outpost on that border. The U.N. flag and the Hezbollah flag fly side by side. Observers told me the U.N. and Hezbollah personnel share water and telephones, and that the U.N. presence serves as a shield against Israeli strikes against the terrorists.

Morlar

zen63 wrote:

Yes it is a picture from an editorial Wall Street Journal of a UN border Post which has a Hezbollah post right next to it.


Quote:
The U.N.'s years-long record on the Israel-Lebanon border makes mockery of the term "peacekeeping." On page 155 of my book, "Inside the Asylum," is a picture of a U.N. outpost on that border. The U.N. flag and the Hezbollah flag fly side by side. Observers told me the U.N. and Hezbollah personnel share water and telephones, and that the U.N. presence serves as a shield against Israeli strikes against the terrorists.

Can you provide a link to that ?

Manic Moran

You mean a report by a single Canadian solider. Which incidently you can be punished for using the UN as human shields despite what he said

I quoted an official UN report as 10 meters a while back. Also pretty close.
I know the UN in Lebanon has weapons. I've seen them. Why they didn't use them to enforce their own neutrality is beyond me.

NTM

zen63

Can you provide a link to that ?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008672

cik

bonkey wrote:

Ask the UN to give up their positions because they cannot guarantee their safety, and inform them that whether or not they do, they have a maximum of X amount of time after which Israel will not be held accountable for their safety?

That seems lodgical, incidently the IDF have good reason to believe that the UN would be lets say uncooperative...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Conflict_in_South_Lebanon

In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya.

People can quibble all they like but to view the tragic incident of 4 UN soldiers without the context of Hezbollah abusing UN soldiers posts and severely comprimising the UN soldiers safety is undeniably dishonest.
The most reliable of sources reported such activity at many UN outposts and one, now deceased, soldier described such activity at the very compound just three days before.
That is not to obsolve the IDF of guilt.
The context is paramount and without it credibility is severely diminished.

The Saint

Manic Moran wrote:

I quoted an official UN report as 10 meters a while back. Also pretty close.
I know the UN in Lebanon has weapons. I've seen them. Why they didn't use them to enforce their own neutrality is beyond me.

NTM

It's been repeatedly said that they were unarmed UN observers. This means they're not in a position to do anything other than observe. They don't have a mandate to do anything other than observe.

Well precision bombs apparantly have an accuracy of up to 2 metres. So why then was there a direct hit on the UN position when Hezbollah were 10 metres away?

zen63

Of course another take on the UN story is the same as the Canadian PM has taken:

Harper said he would like to know why the post, hit by a bomb in an Israeli airstrike on Tuesday, still had UN staff working there even though it was in the midst of a conflict zone.

Jimboo_Jones

Manic Moran wrote:

I quoted an official UN report as 10 meters a while back. Also pretty close.
I know the UN in Lebanon has weapons. I've seen them. Why they didn't use them to enforce their own neutrality is beyond me.

NTM

as pointed out before - the observers where unarmed why you keep ingnoring this fact is beyond me.

ohh by the way - I loved that quote of yours earlier about religious wars

Morlar

zen63 wrote:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008672

Ok so your source for that is :

The American Spectator contributing editor Jed Babbin served as a deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration. He writes the "Loose Canons" column for TAS Online and often appears as a talking warhead on television and radio. He is the author of Inside the Asylum: Why the UN and Old Europe are Worse Than You Think.

Thanks for clarifying that.

The Saint

cik wrote:

That seems lodgical, incidently the IDF have good reason to believe that the UN would be lets say uncooperative...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Conflict_in_South_Lebanon

In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya.

People can quibble all they like but to view the tragic incident of 4 UN soldiers without the context of Hezbollah abusing UN soldiers posts and severely comprimising the UN soldiers safety is undeniably dishonest.
The most reliable of sources reported such activity at many UN outposts and one, now deceased, soldier described such activity at the very compound just three days before.
That is not to obsolve the IDF of guilt.
The context is paramount and without it credibility is severely diminished.

Thats a nice little story but what does that have to do with the UN? The UN couldn't force Hezbollah to remove the IED. What should they have done?

No one is denying that Hezbollah being close to UN positions compromises that position but in the chain of events that lead up to the 'precision' strike on the outpost leads one to believe that there were some very troubling mistakes made on the IDF side which lead to the deaths of the four UN observers.

Jimboo_Jones

cik wrote:

That seems lodgical, incidently the IDF have good reason to believe that the UN would be lets say uncooperative...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Conflict_in_South_Lebanon

In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged “improvised explosive devices” (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then “requested” that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the “Zionist” border, it was up to the “Zionists” to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer’s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya.

humm I dont see your point to be honest. Whats the UN done wrong here?

zen63

humm I dont see your point to be honest. Whats the UN done wrong here?

I dont know perhaps deal with the Hezbolah situation when Israel left?

Hobbes

zen63 wrote:

Of course another take on the UN story is the same as the Canadian PM has taken:

Harper said he would like to know why the post, hit by a bomb in an Israeli airstrike on Tuesday, still had UN staff working there even though it was in the midst of a conflict zone.

Hmm, if only Harper had read the PDFs that you linked to where it pointed out that they were trapped because there was no way out of the zone and while there were trying to administer humanitarian aid to refugees caught in the fights as well.

Oooh those Evil UN.

zen63 wrote:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008672

Ooh I see this is the same guy that claimed that Iraq was shipping weapons to Syria, that Iraq had ties to AQ and said that ISG had found WMD in Iraq when in fact they hadn't. This was all based on his own fantasy world.

Also the same guy that accused the UN of being a terorrist organisation and that the US should pull out of the UN.

You have any real proof to back up what you are saying?

cik

The Saint wrote:

Thats a nice little story but what does that have to do with the UN? The UN couldn't force Hezbollah to remove the IED. What should they have done?

Jimbo Jones wrote:

humm I dont see your point to be honest. Whats the UN done wrong here?

Lads, have lost all concept of context?
the UN reason for being there is to help the Lebanese troops disarm Hezbollah therefore they should have contacted the Lebanese government, instead they were uncooperative and were manipulated by Hezbollah with tradic results...
It seems to me that their presence de facto helps Hezbollah rather than hinders them for example in the last couple of days they have repaired roads and the like...

Get it?

The Saint

zen63 wrote:

I dont know perhaps deal with the Hezbolah situation when Israel left?

OK, lets try this once more. They did not have a mandate to do anything other than observe. If the had a peace making mandate then they could have done something. Otherwise they were in no position and didn't have the authority to do anything.

metrovelvet

Question. Who's paying for these UN troops and how much do they cost per annum?

zen63

Hmm, if only Harper had read the PDFs that you linked to where it pointed out that they were trapped because there was no way out of the zone and while there were trying to administer humanitarian aid to refugees caught in the fights as well.

None of the quotes from the reports I posted mentioned being trapped, im not even sure the word is mentioned anywhere in any of the UN reports. M-O-O-N spells SPIN.

Ooh I see this is the same guy that claimed that Iraq was shipping weapons to Syria, that Iraq had ties to AQ and said that ISG had found WMD in Iraq when in fact they hadn't. This was all based on his own fantasy world.

You dont like one source, fine - but dont discount the others based on that.

The Saint

metrovelvet wrote:

Question. Who's paying for these UN troops and how much do they cost per annum?

General UN expendature.


Financial Aspects Method of financing
Assessments in respect of a Special Account
Approved budget:
1 July 2005 - 30 June 2006: $99.23 million (gross)

Morlar

Dont forget that even if the UN were 'sharing water' with hisbollah is that good reason for the israelis to target and kill them ?

The unifil were there for 20 years keeping the peace - dont you think that in all that time that it would have been in their (unifiil & un) interests to get to know the hisbollah people on a sociable basis ?
That doesnt seem outlandish or unacceptable to me - definitely not justification for israel to kill them.

Probably worth remembering this (from wikkipedia btw)
"
Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings but also boasts an extensive social development programme. The civilian wing also runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign ('Jihad al-Bina') is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructural development projects in Lebanon.[7][8] The group currently operates at least four hospitals, 12 clinics, 12 schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance programme. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members"

Also:
"
Hezbollah has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United States,[94] Canada,[95] Israel,[96] and Australia.[97]

The United Kingdom and Netherlands do not consider Hezbollah itself to be a terrorist group, but they list the Hezballah External Security Organisation (ESO) as terrorist.
. . . . .

The European Union

The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization"

Hobbes

zen63 wrote:

None of the quotes from the reports I posted mentioned being trapped, im not even sure the word is mentioned anywhere in any of the UN reports.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr01.pdf
- Freedom of movement restricted due to fighting.
- Numerous requests to IDF to allow safe passage ignored.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr02.pdf
- Reports roads and bridges destroyed stopping supplies getting in.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr03.pdf
- Several reports of being shelled by the IDF.
- Reports movement being restricted.
- UN staff member and spouse reported missing. Thier house was bombed.
- Unable to get to house in question to investigate due to fighting.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr04.pdf
- 31 reported hits near UN compounds. One compound hit.
- Still reports unable to move due to restrictions.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr05.pdf
- Seven incidents of shells hitting close to UN compounds.
- 3 UN compounds hit.
- Reports unable to move again.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr06.pdf
- 15 incidents of IDF hitting close UN compounds.
- 1 output abandoned due to numerous hits.
- Still reporting not able to move but some relief supplies delivered.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr07.pdf
- 7 incidents of IDF hitting close to UN compounds, mainly aerial bombardment.
- Some humanitarian aid delivered to civilians.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf
- 1 UN observer injured by Hizbollah
- Reports bridges and roads destroyed.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf
- 4 UN observers injured by IDF tank round hitting thier compound.
- Hizbollah attack UN convoy.
- Reports serious restrictions of movement.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
- 4 UN observers killed by bomb hitting compound.
- 14 incidents of shelling near the compound.
- 4 shells directly hitting the compound.
- UN observer and wife found after house was checked. Both dead.
- Hizbollah fire mortar round into compound. Doesn't go off.
- 3 resupply convoys, a medivac and other humanitarian functions carried out.


http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr011.pdf
At this point the UN are able to evac a load of people. This is about the time the world knows about the deaths.


I have read all PR01 to PR011 PDF files and they are filled with more or less the same.

So as I said the reports you linked to clearly stated that the UN people where unable to move and had tried to contact the IDF to allow them passage and that the infrastructure around them was destroyed.

You dont like one source, fine - but dont discount the others based on that.

I'm saying your source is full of crap. I had a look at page 115. He talks about a visit to one UN output where "Observers" told him that they were sharing the outpost.

You would think that a UN output being shared resources so much would of come up in more then one report then just a sentance in his book that doesn't even quote sources but says "Hey look I have a picture of a flag near another flag, it must be true".

Like I said, your information is bunk. Please feel free to research it though and find something more official.

As for "discount others" you haven't posted any other proof that the UN is sharing resources with a terrorist organisation.

metrovelvet wrote:

Question. Who's paying for these UN troops and how much do they cost per annum?

You don't need to worry, its not like the US has paid for the upkeep in a long time for the UN.

Manic Moran

The Saint wrote:

the observers where unarmed why you keep ingnoring this fact is beyond me.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm questioning the policy which has obviously been in place for a year plus and has been known to be dangerous, by the UN's own report.

UNIFIL does have weapons in its armouries, unless something has drastically changed in the last year or two. The fact that the UN OP in question was unarmed leads to the following question.

Why on Earth were they unarmed in the first place? If UNIFIL as a monitoring force was deemed worthy of having armoured cars, heavy machineguns, anti-tank weapons and so on, why have an OP way up top of a hill with nothing? A very fundamental rule of neutrality is that if you are unable or unwilling to enforce your own neutrality, you run an inherent risk of being swept into an action against your will. This applies equally at the ground level as at international level.


Conversation at IDF HQ, my guess.

"Yes, Irish Colonel. I will immediately tell our soldiers to stop shelling the UN OP"
(On radio)
"Any units currently shelling an OP at grid 123456 are to immediately stop."
"This is Unit Alpha. It's not us! We're shelling Hezbullah at grid 123457"
"Oh. OK. Carry on."

NTM

metrovelvet

The Saint wrote:

General UN expendature.


Financial Aspects Method of financing
Assessments in respect of a Special Account
Approved budget:
1 July 2005 - 30 June 2006: $99.23 million (gross)

But where does the money come from? Who's footing the bill?

I found this which says:

The UNIFIL operation has an annual operating budget of $99.3 million, approximately one quarter of which (as with all U.N. operations) is paid by the American taxpayer

I cant find who is paying for the other 3/4ths.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2UxZjI3MTRhNGM5YTc1MDkyM2NkZmVhZjdiYzUzODU=