Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

banaman

There was an article in yesterday's Irish Times which made several salient points. The article was written by Tom Clonan(tclonan@irishtimes.ie) apparently he's a security consultant.
He stated that:-
1) Hezbollah missiles cannot be fired from inside builings or bunkers due to the "backblast" at launch (remember the pictures of the moonshots lifting off?)
2) said backblast will destroy the missile and any one close by.
3) these missiles are launched from mobile launchers either flat bed trucks or other types of 4wheel drive vehicles.
4) as soon as a missile launches Israeli satellite and other airborne detectors pick up the heat and motion so they know EXACTLY where it has launched from, so those launching it don't hang around.
5) on the ground there will be widespread charring and scorch marks on anything in the vicinity (so if the buildings hit by bombs had been so used the evidence would be obvious).

The following are my own musings:-

Since no such evidence has been produced then ergo the buildings were not launch sites.
Therefore they were not targetted to reduce the missile threat.
Next question is why, does Israel need "bunker buster" bombs?
These bombs are designed solely for use against "hardened" underground military structures.

Do Hezbollah or Hamas have any such facilities?
Given that we have seen no evidence produced that they do, and presumably Israeli Intelligence would have been only too willing to provide such evidence as justification, then what targets are there in the region that one would need such bombs for?
The only answer that I can think of are Iran's nuclear facilities.

Therefore what we are seeing is the Israeli pilots training to use said "bunker busters".
I do not believe that this is an outlandish scenario since all air forces train extensively with the different types of weapons at their disposal.
Where else can the Israeli Air Force train with out arousing suspicions?

Outlandish? Perhaps but the Israeli military does not care about Arab civilian casualties, witness their operations in Gaza or Qana or Shabra and Chatila.
And their American military sponsors have a long history of callousness to other race's civillian populations.

cik

banaman wrote:

The following are my own musings:-

Since no such evidence has been produced then ergo the buildings were not launch sites.
Therefore they were not targetted to reduce the missile threat.

If you are musing or speculating following lodgic it would be more plausible to say -
Hezbollah presumably have more rockets than people qualified to fire the rockets
...so therefore...
in the short-term it would make sense to give someone who has just fired a rocket a very high priority as target -
...remembering...
(as soon as a missile launches Israeli satellite and other airborne detectors pick up the heat and motion so they know EXACTLY where it has launched from, so those launching it don't hang around.)
...so...
if they see someone who has just fired running into a building then that building would be quite a quite high priority building...


of course I cant say thats what did happen but you are the one musing by trying to follow lodgic - I think lodgic could more plausibly lead you else where but hey its all musing anyway

Diogenes

The following are my own musings:-

Since no such evidence has been produced then ergo the buildings were not launch sites.
Therefore they were not targetted to reduce the missile threat.
Next question is why, does Israel need "bunker buster" bombs?
These bombs are designed solely for use against "hardened" underground military structures.

Do Hezbollah or Hamas have any such facilities?

Yes Hezbollah have hardened underground military structures, bunkers and arms depots.

Given that we have seen no evidence produced that they do, and presumably Israeli Intelligence would have been only too willing to provide such evidence as justification, then what targets are there in the region that one would need such bombs for?
The only answer that I can think of are Iran's nuclear facilities.

We have early on in the war Israeli tried to destroy Hezabollah's leadership in such a bunker and failed.

Therefore your speculation falls flat from then on.
Therefore what we are seeing is the Israeli pilots training to use said "bunker busters".
I do not believe that this is an outlandish scenario since all air forces train extensively with the different types of weapons at their disposal.
Where else can the Israeli Air Force train with out arousing suspicions?

Israeli pilots recieve extensive training by the US in the US and on US bases, suggesting that Israeli is inventing a war to gain some target practice is just wild speculation.

The Saint

Robert Fisks take on what happened in Qana.

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/demand/2006/july/audio/dn20060731.ra&proto=rtsp&start=

Jimboo_Jones

banaman wrote:

Therefore what we are seeing is the Israeli pilots training to use said "bunker busters".
I do not believe that this is an outlandish scenario since all air forces train extensively with the different types of weapons at their disposal.
Where else can the Israeli Air Force train with out arousing suspicions?

I doubt this is the case, I think its just a general complete lack of regard for civilians ( by both sides ) and I also suspect that the IDF want to completly destory any village or town near the boarder to make deter people from moving back.

I have noticed that there have been quite a few new posters appear on here (whoes join dates are from july) and that does arouse my suspicions ... has the board been advertised somewhere?

gandalf

Maybe someone was shouting on their Megaphone

Diogenes

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

I doubt this is the case, I think its just a general complete lack of regard for civilians ( by both sides ) and I also suspect that the IDF want to completly destory any village or town near the boarder to make deter people from moving back.

I have noticed that there have been quite a few new posters appear on here (whoes join dates are from july) and that does arouse my suspicions ... has the board been advertised somewhere?

There was a recent guardian or observer article about Israeli mounting a team of volunteer web activists campaigning and using RSS feeds to spot any website were "anti Israeli" sentiments were expressed.

I tried searching for it but cannot find it online.

Morlar

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

I have noticed that there have been quite a few new posters appear on here (whoes join dates are from july) and that does arouse my suspicions ... has the board been advertised somewhere?

I had noticed that too - check this out from the other israel thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51810323&postcount=61

&
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html

Do any admins here have a view on this ?

Zulu

Personally, I for one, would like to welcome our friends from Mossad, and remind them that I think all actions taken by Israel are evidently balanced and in the best intrests of the chil.... I mean terrorists involved.

Gordon

I don't understand how the general population in Lebanon is getting hit from these Israeli bombs if they are being bombed due to mobile launchers in Lebanon. If I was living in Lebanon I'd be watching out for any Hezbullah launchers aiming at Israel and if I saw one I'd run a mile knowing that Israel would be retaliating.

Hobbes

cik wrote:

where are you getting this idea from?

Here is why I am getting the idea. Trying to justify "Hezbollah are using human shields so its there fault" argument is crap.

Are they doing this? Israel have shown footage of 2-3 instances where they have attacked Hizbollah being in buildings where other people are.

However the sheer actions of destroying the whole infrastructure of the country, telling people to leave towns and then shelling/missile attacks on them when they do leave and then claiming because they haven't left they must be a terorrist and a visual target..

This just tells me that the IDF are being pretty indiscriminate and are only coming up with excuses because they are being pulled up on it.

Trying to argue if Hizbollah use human shields or not is a pretty fuking tiny point when the sheer majority of people dead are not Hizbollah and that majority of stuff destroyed is infrastructure and not military/militia in nature.

Morlar wrote:

Do any admins here have a view on this ?

We have had pitch invasions before. Generally no problem them being here as long as they follow the charter rules. although actual Shills are generally frowned apon.

Morlar

Hobbes wrote:

We have had pitch invasions before. Generally no problem them being here as long as they follow the charter rules. although actual Shills are generally frowned apon.

I just think it feels like trying to hold a conversation with an atm machine. Shills we can do without imo whether they are promoting a brand/product or justifying the latest round of ethnic cleansing.

cik

Hobbes wrote:

Here is why I am getting the idea. Trying to justify "Hezbollah are using human shields so its there fault" argument is crap.

Using a strawman argument really is the most transparently weak debating point there is - first you said I implied something when I did not (and havent backed it up), now you say that I said its 'there (their?) fault'...when I didnt

I really would have expected better

Hobbes wrote:

Trying to argue if Hizbollah use human shields or not is a pretty fuking tiny point when the sheer majority of people dead are not Hizbollah and that majority of stuff destroyed is infrastructure and not military/militia in nature.

This begs the question as to why you are so very determined to lose a debate on this 'pretty fuking tiny point'

I'll ask again, have you read the UN accounts criticising Hezbollah for using such tactics?

gandalf

Diogenes wrote:

There was a recent guardian or observer article about Israeli mounting a team of volunteer web activists campaigning and using RSS feeds to spot any website were "anti Israeli" sentiments were expressed.

I tried searching for it but cannot find it online.

This is the software they were talking about http://giyus.org/

Hobbes

cik wrote:

I really would have expected better

I really don't understand what your problem is?

This begs the question as to why you are so very determined to lose a debate on this 'pretty fuking tiny point'

Loose what debate exactly?

I'll ask again, have you read the UN accounts criticising Hezbollah for using such tactics?

You must be new here. I have read the reports. I can dig out the links for you if you haven't read them. I have also seen the footage of a couple of mobile launchers being hit.

What is your point?

Hobbes

gandalf wrote:

This is the software they were talking about http://giyus.org/

According to Licence agreement your giving them full access to your machine by installing software. No mention of giving positive/negative opinions using the software but the software does report back what you are writing.

gandalf

I wonder does it forward you co-ordinates to a Hellfire missile if you vote the wrong way

cik

Hobbes wrote:

I really don't understand what your problem is?

Its quite simple, I made a point and instead of tackling that point directly you introduced a strawman - if I had of known you were going to that I wouldnt have bothered replying to you. That is why I was disappointed, I felt I wasted my time - a disclaimer would be nice the next time - something like I reserved the right to deploy a strawman argument

Hobbes wrote:

Loose what debate exactly?

a couple of pages ago FYI wasnt convinced that Hezbollah were using human shield tactics and you said

Hizbollah hide in with civillians? Sure, there have been reports of that. There have also been reports of Hizbollah purposely avoiding civilians due to being ratted out.
seemingly you werent convinced either or the issue was in doubt...and you continued later with
Are they doing this? Israel have shown footage of 2-3 instances where they have attacked Hizbollah being in buildings where other people are.
Im saying (and presumably you knew this but choose not to mentioned it then when you just cited Israeli allegations of the tactic) that the tactic is so widely used by Hezbollah that the UN have criticised them directly for it many times - are you convinced yet that Hezbollah operate frequently using human shield tactics?

Jimboo_Jones

gandalf wrote:

I wonder does it forward you co-ordinates to a Hellfire missile if you vote the wrong way

Maybe you get a prize like a trip in an IDF plane for every 100 positive IDF posts you make

all seems a little strange to me

Hobbes

cik wrote:

Its quite simple, I made a point and instead of tackling that point directly you introduced a strawman

What strawman exactly?

As I pointed out, while there are reports and footage of Hezbollah being within civilians, the actual number of those reports vs what has been destroyed in Lebanon would suggest that either

(a) Them hiding in civilians is not the norm.

(b) Israel are indiscriminatly targetting and using the "Human shield" as an excuse.

(c) Israel can't aim for crap and have horrible intel.

are you convinced yet that Hezbollah operate frequently using human shield tactics?

Actually at the moment. No I am not convinced. If they were the number of Hizbollah dead would be much higher and Israel wouldn't have to level whole housing estates to hit a target.

But my point which you so happly seem to be dancing over is that regardless if they are using human shields or not is Israel justified in killing so many civilians?

Also how do you explain away destroying the countries infrastructure as "targetting hizbollah"?

Oh and my last question is, do you have Megaphone installed?

cik

Hobbes wrote:

Actually at the moment. No I am not convinced.

ok

Hobbes wrote:

If they were the number of Hizbollah dead would be much higher

how do you know when a Hezbollah fighter is killed?

Hobbes wrote:

and Israel wouldn't have to level whole housing estates to hit a target.

eh? human shields mean hiding in civilian population - not outside

Hobbes wrote:

But my point which you so happly seem to be dancing over is that regardless if they are using human shields or not is Israel justified in killing so many civilians?

Im happy to dance around it because I was talking only about the context of fighting rather than whether the fighting was right or wrong - if we cant agree on whats happening there how can we possibly agree on whether it is right or wrong?
I happen to believe that understanding the context is vital

Hobbes wrote:

Oh and my last question is, do you have Megaphone installed?

well... I am the Napleon of internet propaganda

Morlar

cik wrote:

Originally Posted by Hobbes
Oh and my last question is, do you have Megaphone installed?

well... I am the Napleon of internet propaganda

Dont quite follow that, hope you can clarify - are you saying that you use the 'megaphone' software as available at

http://giyus.org/

and that you are in fact a shill for the idf /israel ?

Hobbes

cik wrote:

how do you know when a Hezbollah fighter is killed?

How does Israel know there is a Hezbollah fighter there to begin with?

eh? human shields mean hiding in civilian population - not outside

Israel have already shown through footage that they can take out a single target with extreme accuracy yet we are somehow to believe that taking out housing estates the size of Tallaght, airports, ports that those whole areas where swarming with Hezbollah.

Im happy to dance around it because I was talking only about the context of fighting rather than whether the fighting was right or wrong

Still haven't answered the question though. Are you saying that intentionally killing civilians is right?

well... I am the Napleon of internet propaganda

The only reason I ask is that you only appeared on this thread around the same time as the inception of the tool. Your clearly very new to the forum or you wouldn't ask me something "Did you read the reports", when in fact not only did I read them but I also broke them down earlier in the thread for another person who was using the exact same argument as you only to justify hitting UN posts.

Now you can continue to go around in circles about Human shields and what not but the simple truth is that Israel have hit so much of Lebanon to say that each instance was due to human shields that civilians died is just taking the p!ss.

cik

Hobbes wrote:

How does Israel know there is a Hezbollah fighter there to begin with?

That is a good question but I think you should answer my question first

Hobbes wrote:

Now you can continue to go around in circles about Human shields and what not but the simple truth is that Israel have hit so much of Lebanon to say that each instance was due to human shields that civilians died is just taking the p!ss.

nobody I seen is saying this, what I have seen is people saying that they arent convinced Hezbollah use the tactic

Hobbes wrote:

Still haven't answered the question though. Are you saying that intentionally killing civilians is right?

cant we establish the context without judging?
Im sure that you would love me to answer one way or the other but I was only interested in challenging those who deny that Hezbollah are using despicable human shield tactics, as the UN has claimed/reported/established
if I had denied Israel were using despicable tactics we could have that conversation, but I have not

Hobbes wrote:

Israel have already shown through footage that they can take out a single target with extreme accuracy yet we are somehow to believe that taking out housing estates the size of Tallaght, airports, ports that those whole areas where swarming with Hezbollah.

are you really trying to say that because Israel blew up the airport that Hezbollah arent using human shield tactics? because that doesnt follow...
if I has said Israel are only targeting Hezbollah then your point would be relevant

Hobbes

cik wrote:

That is a good question but I think you should answer my question first

UN reports, Media reports, IDF + Hezbollah reports.

Your turn.

nobody I seen is saying this, what I have seen is people saying that they arent convinced Hezbollah use the tactic

There is footage showing Hezbollah going into populated areas (if you can call it that and firing missiles), as well as UN reports. However if you were to equate those to what Israel has done as being justified we aren't even in the same ballpark.

cant we establish the context without judging?

No. And I am sure your reluctance to answer the question is more that you feel Israel is justified in its actions. But its a bit harder to say so when you know they are intentionally killing civilians.

are you really trying to say that because Israel blew up the airport that Hezbollah arent using human shield tactics?

Again, what I am saying is that Israels actions are reprehensible. The comments of "they were using human shields" or "they were firing close to civilians" is a cop out and a pretty sad one at that.

if I has said Israel are only targeting Hezbollah then your point would be relevant

Actually this is what Israel are saying they are doing. So the point is relevant.

cik

Hobbes wrote:

UN reports, Media reports, IDF + Hezbollah reports.

so you will agree that it very difficult when the UN and journalists are not allowed to investigate on the ground and report independently of what Hezbollah show them

Hobbes wrote:

Your turn.

I would guess surveillence and intelligence

Hobbes wrote:

Again, what I am saying is that Israels actions are reprehensible. The comments of "they were using human shields" or "they were firing close to civilians" is a cop out and a pretty sad one at that.

See this is exactly were we have a problem, you seem to think that when I simply challenge someone who is denying a largely established feature of the conflict (something that its seems we both seem to largely agree is happening) then Im doing something unworthy or sinister

For the last time, I didnt say 'its ok because Hezbollah are...'
Im saying 'Hezbollah are...' in response to someone who said 'Im not convinced Hezbollah are...'

you seem to think that is not fair comment but thats your problem

Hobbes

cik wrote:

so you will agree that it very difficult when the UN and journalists are not allowed to investigate on the ground and report independently of what Hezbollah show them

So you are saying that of all the people dead so far there are much more Hezbollah in that population? Currently to date that hasn't even been remotely correct based on the confirmed dead figures.

See this is exactly were we have a problem, you seem to think that when I simply challenge someone who is denying a largely established feature of the conflict

Ok you have established that this may go on. So what is your point beyond that? Or are you just arguing this point for the sake of it?

[/quote]you seem to think that is not fair comment but thats your problem[/QUOTE]

Its not that its not a fair comment, its that it is totally pointless to the issue at hand. Which is Israels actions in Lebanon justified.

cik

Hobbes wrote:

So you are saying that of all the people dead so far there are much more Hezbollah in that population? Currently to date that hasn't even been remotely correct based on the confirmed dead figures.

Im merely saying we largely have to rely Hezbollah for the number of dead Hezbollah

Hobbes wrote:

Ok you have established that this may go on. So what is your point beyond that? Or are you just arguing this point for the sake of it? ...
Its not that its not a fair comment, its that it is totally pointless to the issue at hand. Which is Israels actions in Lebanon justified.

Pointless? I think it is a major feature of the conflict, imagine for just one minute what the conflict would look like if Hezbollah didnt use this tactic... i shouldnt have to describe it for you... it should be obvious to you that it is very significant

juliuspret

Has anyone written a program similar to that at:
giyus.org

but for support of the civilian lebanese being killed at a 10:1 ratio?

Lemming

cik wrote:

Im merely saying we largely have to rely Hezbollah for the number of dead Hezbollah

Tell me cik .... and I am going to apply the exact same criteria to israel as applied to the British government's attempts to combat paramilitar yactivity in Northern ireland ... exactly where is Israel getting all these fantastist figures of "two thirds of hezbollah's military capabilities" etc. from?

Given that over 1500 rockets have been fired into Israel at varying targets over the last two weeks, I'd say Hezbollah aren't looking at "two thirds" damage or anywhere close to that ... so someone somewhere is speaking out their @rse. And judging from the responses to Israel's military campaign of ethnic cleansing (call it what you like, I'm going to call it what it is by its text-book definition criteria) I'd say that some "two thirds" (or whatever figure it's claimed to be now) is somewhat an over-exageration of facts as they would appear to be. I have no doubt that Hezbollah are also down-playing what they have lost, but I find it unusual that an entity such as Hezbollah is actually giving out precise figures on its dead (at least so far as they are claiming)

I believe the term is "propoganda" (from both sides), with the reality sitting somewhere in-between.

Do Hezbollah members run around with white tshirts with "I am a member of Hezbollah adn all i got was a stinking tshirt" emblazoned on them in big bold red letters so that Israel can target them? So, with that in mind, I question these "intelligence" reports of massive hezbollah damage. Unless, of course, everything and everyone inside southern lebanon is a terrorist target according to varying Israeli government officials ..... *cough*