Shooting Cats?

Umiq88

A discussion is one thing this is an argument you've taken alot of stuff out of context and twisted them. You are obviously from the city and have made up your own mind about what goes on and happens in the country side.

FranknFurter

psittacosis wrote:

A discussion is one thing this is an argument you've taken alot of stuff out of context and twisted them. You are obviously from the city and have made up your own mind about what goes on and happens in the country side.

Actually, if you read back you will see I have twisted nothing. Also I have no opinion as such as to "what happens in the countryside" specifically in the context of this discussion. Law is law, and farmers are not above it, and just as it is illegal to do somthing in the city it is also illegal to do the same "in the countryside".

B

Umiq88

Taking me out of context again up there i was in no way comparing a road accident to someone purposly setting out the kill an animal. The subject was neglegence and how and animal can be injured from a badly taken shot just as a person can be injured/killed from a bad incompetant driver the common thing here the person responsable not taking the care to be practiced and competant behind their device and consequently causing harm/unnessecary damage

So you think if a farmer has a problem with a wild cat taking some of his chickens he should ring the ring up the guards and have them call out to dispose of the cat. Rather than using his legally aquired firearm to humanly dispatch of vermin which by definition is "Various small animals or insects, such as rats or cockroaches, that are destructive, annoying, or injurious to health OR Animals that prey on game, such as foxes or weasels." which is mentioned on a gun licence as an acceptable reason for owning a firearm and a firearm is an acceptable method of dispatch. You go down to a guarda station and ask them which is the better option.

civdef

Law is law, and farmers are not above it, and just as it is illegal to do somthing in the city it is also illegal to do the same "in the countryside".

There is no law being broken by shooting feral cats in a manner that does not endanger public safety.

Hellrazer

This thread just shows the typical stupid mindedness of farmers and hunters.

I rescued one of these so called "feral" cats after a farmer shot the mother for absolutely no reason whatsoever-just walked up to where the cats were bedding down and shot the mother with the comment that the rest would die now that theyve no food.

That cat is still with me years on and any of the others I found homes for are the same--all are perfectly happy pets.

The sooner the better we have a ban on all guns and all forms of cruel so called "sports" the better.
But it will never happen as the fooking farmers have too much say in the running of this country.
Im not even going to go into shooting for "sports"

If I had my way Id set all you hunters off running in a field and gun you lot down with a few farmers thrown in for the "sport"
Would be better than shooting innocent animals.

And while Im ranting the "shooting" forum may aswell be called the "Animal abuse" forum now with all the "Feral cats/goats/hens" threads and the best method of shooting them.Im sickened that the mods have let those threads continue.

WallysWorld

Hellrazer wrote:

This thread just shows the typical stupid mindedness of farmers and hunters.

This post just shows your stupid mindedness.

Hellrazer wrote:

I rescued one of these so called "feral" cats after a farmer shot the mother for absolutely no reason whatsoever-just walked up to where the cats were bedding down and shot the mother with the comment that the rest would die now that theyve no food.
That cat is still with me years on and any of the others I found homes for are the same--all are perfectly happy pets.

I live in the country, I hunt but my family have also taken in the odd stray cat over the years, Im not a heartless b*astard either but every stray cat in the country cant be taken in, even if they could find enough people it still wouldnt work many of these cats are too wild to be domesticated, unless maybe you find them young.

Hellrazer wrote:

The sooner the better we have a ban on all guns and all forms of cruel so called "sports" the better.
But it will never happen as the fooking farmers have too much say in the running of this country.
Im not even going to go into shooting for "sports"

Yeah this is your opinion thats fine, I dont ever expect everyone in the country to like shooting, but maybe your opinion on the matter would matter a bit more to me and other people if you didnt come out with stuff like whats quoted below.

Hellrazer wrote:

If I had my way Id set all you hunters off running in a field and gun you lot down with a few farmers thrown in for the "sport"
Would be better than shooting innocent animals.

Death threats?!!, fair enough you probably dont have a gun to carry through on this but its still a bit much, your a mod for f*cks sake act like one and try to argue your point, FranknFurter while I dont agree with him (or her) hes at least kept it above the level of idle threats.

Hellrazer wrote:

And while Im ranting the "shooting" forum may aswell be called the "Animal abuse" forum now with all the "Feral cats/goats/hens" threads and the best method of shooting them.Im sickened that the mods have let those threads continue.

The mods let them continue because its a shooting forum, where we talk about shooting:rolleyes: , if you dont like it dont read it.

Hellrazer

WallysWorld wrote:

This post just shows your stupid mindedness.

Your opinion--Ill stick to mine.

I live in the country, I hunt but my family have also taken in the odd stray cat over the years, Im not a heartless b*astard either but every stray cat in the country cant be taken in, even if they could find enough people it still wouldnt work many of these cats are too wild to be domesticated, unless maybe you find them young.

Maybe you`re not a heartless bastard but from spending most of my summers in the country a lot of what I saw is downright cruelty to animals--horse gets a bad leg--its shot,dog worries sheep--its shot,a sheep falls--its shot and the list goes on and on.

Yeah this is your opinion thats fine, I dont ever expect everyone in the country to like shooting, but maybe your opinion on the matter would matter a bit more to me and other people if you didnt come out with stuff like whats quoted below.

Im not anti-shooting.Im anti-shooting animals just for the fun of it.

Death threats?!!, fair enough you probably dont have a gun to carry through on this but its still a bit much, your a mod for f*cks sake act like one and try to argue your point, FranknFurter while I dont agree with him (or her) hes at least kept it above the level of idle threats.

Come on seriously--youre taking that as a death threat(ever hear of sarcasm??).Enough said really.Its obvious that you take you`re shooting seriously-Well I take my stance on animal cruelty seriously so much to the point that I made that statement(which by the way is not a death threat although saying that maybe I was wrong to say Id like to take pot shots at you lot---releasing the hounds might be a better option and let the animals get their own back(hint--sarcasm again in case you dont get it this time) and if you notice the very first post in this thread states the same point.

The mods let them continue because its a shooting forum, where we talk about shooting:rolleyes: , if you dont like it dont read it.

Well if you dont like my stance on animal cruelty then dont bother posting your support of it here.
Richie

Garth

The facts are that

1. it's been proven time and time again that simply killing domestic felines (as a species) is ineffective at controlling the populations.

2. no matter how many times you say this, show the studies, offer alternatives, people will guns persist in killing them, and saying they're doing it to "control" pest populations. DESPITE it being completely ineffective.

Pissing in the wind. Essentially. Or they enjoy it, which most deny.

Somebody is lying or deluding themselves.

Look at it this way.

Two scenarios

1.

You look out your window and there's a cat. You see him around a number of times. There are birds, mice, etc in the area so the cat stays and perhaps a female joins him. Soon enough, there are kittens. The next year you have 8 cats in your back field. They soon mate (the whole brother/sister/father/mother thing means little to the feline world) and you have, oh -- (assuming 4 are female) approx 16 new cats, bringing you to a frustrating 24 total. Now, you're finding faeces everywhere, you can't sleep for the fighting and mating and the neighbours (or hens, whatever) are complaining.

The cats are also skinny and sickly, and sometimes you find ones that have simply died of natural causes. There isn't enough food to go around anymore.

So you shoot them, but scare a couple away with the noise and next year, you have 10 again.

So you shoot them, but more wander over. You shoot cats again this year.

It becomes an annual thing. Seems fairly futile if you have a brain in your head at all.

2.

You notice a cat in your back field. You see him a number of times. He's not tame, but he keeps the mice at bay, so you don't mind. You borrow a humane trap off your local veterinarian and in two days have the old boy back on his patch -- only he's not spraying anymore. He also doesn't really fight much, or have the desire to mate.

One or two more cats join the area and you have them spayed/neutered as well. It hasn't cost you much, and they aren't reproducing. What they are doing, however, is defending their territory. No other cats are arriving.

At your vets advice you stick food out once every couple months with wormer in it, to keep the cats healthy and minimise risks associated with cat faeces.

---

If everybody TNR'd their cats, we'd be in the same situation as in many countries now where all kittens born are wanted ones, and there simply are not any unwanted domestic felines.

People have been shooting cats for years, it obviously has not worked as the stray cat problem is worse than ever.

Gordon Gekko

Excellent post.

WallysWorld

Hellrazer wrote:

Maybe you`re not a heartless bastard but from spending most of my summers in the country a lot of what I saw is downright cruelty to animals--horse gets a bad leg--its shot,dog worries sheep--its shot,a sheep falls--its shot and the list goes on and on.

Horse gets a bad leg and suffers until it dies of starvation because it cant move around enough to graze, a horse's leg say if it was broken is extremly difficult to heal and probably very expensive too, the average farmer would not be able to afford it so whats the alternative? Is the suffering and slowly dieing preferable to a quick painless death?

A dog worries sheep until the sheep has a heart attack from fright and exhaustion and dies, the dog starts chasing another sheep, whats more important the sheep or the dog? whats crueler a dog dieing or a sheep dieing?

A sheep falls you just stand it up again! (sheep aren't very bright) I dont really know where you got that example.

Farmers and people in the country have to make hard choices about animals and their welfare, its not so cut and dried.

Hellrazer wrote:

Come on seriously--youre taking that as a death threat(ever hear of sarcasm)

Yeah it was sarcasm, I know. What I meant was your a mod, I thought your job was to keep boards free of the sort of posts where you just insult everyone and make no real relavant point whatsoever, like your first post on the subject.

Hellrazer wrote:

Well if you dont like my stance on animal cruelty then dont bother posting your support of it here.
Richie

I just wanted to make the above points. I have no doubt that you spent your summers in the country but I also have no doubt you understood very little of what was going on there

Hellrazer

WallysWorld wrote:

Horse gets a bad leg and suffers until it dies of starvation because it cant move around enough to graze, a horse's leg say if it was broken is extremly difficult to heal and probably very expensive too, the average farmer would not be able to afford it so whats the alternative? Is the suffering and slowly dieing preferable to a quick painless death?

Typical country response that one is anyway--Cant afford it???Most of the farmers I know are not the poor people they`re made out to be.
I offered to take a horse from a farmer and pay for the Vets bills and he refused and went out and shot the poor thing.

A dog worries sheep until the sheep has a heart attack from fright and exhaustion and dies, the dog starts chasing another sheep, whats more important the sheep or the dog? whats crueler a dog dieing or a sheep dieing?

Well in my opinion the dog is only doing whats natural,wheras the farmer gets his shotgun and blows away a family pet.In 2 instances Ive seen the dog that was shot was accused in the wrong.Bit late when the dog is dead to apologise.
And yeah a dog is more important than a sheep.More loyal as a pet,protector and friend.

A sheep falls you just stand it up again! (sheep aren't very bright) I dont really know where you got that example.

I dont either

Farmers and people in the country have to make hard choices about animals and their welfare, its not so cut and dried.

Maybe its not so "cut and dried" its just that I personally find a lot of the way farmers deal with their animals to be extremely cruel--Thats the point Im trying to make.

Yeah it was sarcasm, I know. What I meant was your a mod, I thought your job was to keep boards free of the sort of posts where you just insult everyone and make no real relavant point whatsoever, like your first post on the subject.

So a mod is not allowed to have an opinion now are they not.When someone posts in the form that I moderate on a subject that I feel so strongly about Im going to post my feelings wheter Im a mod or not.And while we`re on the subject of insults I think you should go back and read a few of the threads in the shooting forum where posters from here have been insulted.As well as one post in particular about myself

holy **** we stirred up a right wasps nest over there on pets forum, even the moderator is screeching like shot cat

I particulary find that post offensive.

I just wanted to make the above points. I have no doubt that you spent your summers in the country but I also have no doubt you understood very little of what was going on there

No I understand completely what is going on there.There is a lot of out and out cruelty being carried out by farmers in this country.

WallysWorld

Hellrazer wrote:

Typical country response that one is anyway--Cant afford it???Most of the farmers I know are not the poor people they`re made out to be.

A typical city response that, there seems to be this opinion that farmers are all more well off than they let on, there not poor but neither are they rolling in cash, the same as the majority in the country. Im talkin thousands of pounds with no garantee of succsess, in fact quite a small chance of it ever healing properly.

Hellrazer wrote:

I offered to take a horse from a farmer and pay for the Vets bills and he refused and went out and shot the poor thing.

Take it and put it where? I assume your a city dweller, correct me if im wrong. If you really did have somewhere to keep it then probably the farmer was wrong and should have let you have it though perhaps he thought it would be prolonging its suffering.[/QUOTE]

Hellrazer wrote:

Well in my opinion the dog is only doing whats natural,wheras the farmer gets his shotgun and blows away a family pet.In 2 instances Ive seen the dog that was shot was accused in the wrong.Bit late when the dog is dead to apologise.
And yeah a dog is more important than a sheep.More loyal as a pet,protector and friend.

If its a domesticated dog, its wild instincts or what comes naturally to it that are dangerous should be trained out of it for its own sake, if it was a family pet and it was let worry sheep then it was neglected or at least not minded responsibly and the owners have to accept the lions share of the blame, which is I think the law on the matter. What were the circumstances surrounding the two dogs shot in the wrong?
To the farmer the sheep is also very important its literally his livelyhood dieing in the field, if the ewe was pregnant then it could be hundreds of euros lost because some fella let his dog down and didnt look after it. Its opening a can of worms trying say one animals life is more important than another.

Hellrazer wrote:

Maybe its not so "cut and dried" its just that I personally find a lot of the way farmers deal with their animals to be extremely cruel--Thats the point Im trying to make.

I get the what your saying but what you personally find to be cruel might be the only practical option open to a farmer, I know of no farmer I have ever known who would purposly be cruel to an animal, there may be exceptions but theres bad apples in every walk of life.

Hellrazer wrote:

So a mod is not allowed to have an opinion now are they not.When someone posts in the form that I moderate on a subject that I feel so strongly about Im going to post my feelings wheter Im a mod or not.And while we`re on the subject of insults I think you should go back and read a few of the threads in the shooting forum where posters from here have been insulted.As well as one post in particular about myself

No you can have an opinion, fair enough judt because your a moderator dosnt mean you cant say these things its not that important, just responding to insult with an insult just makes for a crappy thread - descends into flames - tears in the morning etc. etc.

Hellrazer

WallysWorld wrote:

A typical city response that, there seems to be this opinion that farmers are all more well off than they let on, there not poor but neither are they rolling in cash, the same as the majority in the country. Im talkin thousands of pounds with no garantee of succsess, in fact quite a small chance of it ever healing properly.

Ok Ill not argue the point of whether farmers are well off or not anymore with you but every farmer that I know of in the South East where my wife is from have made millions from selling sites to us Dubs and thats a fact not a generalisation.

Take it and put it where? I assume your a city dweller, correct me if im wrong. If you really did have somewhere to keep it then probably the farmer was wrong and should have let you have it though perhaps he thought it would be prolonging its suffering.

As I said my wifes family is from the South East and they were willing to let me keep the horse on their land indefinately.

If its a domesticated dog, its wild instincts or what comes naturally to it that are dangerous should be trained out of it for its own sake, if it was a family pet and it was let worry sheep then it was neglected or at least not minded responsibly and the owners have to accept the lions share of the blame, which is I think the law on the matter. What were the circumstances surrounding the two dogs shot in the wrong?
To the farmer the sheep is also very important its literally his livelyhood dieing in the field, if the ewe was pregnant then it could be hundreds of euros lost because some fella let his dog down and didnt look after it. Its opening a can of worms trying say one animals life is more important than another.

The circumstances surrounding the shooting of the 2 dogs was a case of mistaken identity.
Two dogs were caught "worrying" sheep of a similar breed to the ones my wifes brother owned.The farmer in question came up to the house wherethe farmer told my brother in law told him that the dogs were the ones that killed the sheep which was totally impossible as the dogs were locked in their run at the time.

Farmer came back later that night and shot the 2 dogs in front of the kids who were in bed when he thought there was no one home.Then sent a bill for 2000 euro for the lost sheep.
Worst part of it was that he lost 2 more sheep to the same dogs a couple of nights later and he has still not apologised or offered compensation for the lost pets.

I get the what your saying but what you personally find to be cruel might be the only practical option open to a farmer, I know of no farmer I have ever known who would purposly be cruel to an animal, there may be exceptions but theres bad apples in every walk of life.

Fair point---Im just saying it as Ive seen it.Maybe there are a few bad apples but from my observations farming can be quite cruel.

No you can have an opinion, fair enough judt because your a moderator dosnt mean you cant say these things its not that important, just responding to insult with an insult just makes for a crappy thread - descends into flames - tears in the morning etc. etc.

As I said before what you picked up as an insult was sarcasm.I have already admitted that I am totally anti-blood sports and I stand by my feelings on that matter.
And theres insulting going on from both sides of the argument--Animal lovers are now "Animal Nazis" according to someone else on the Shooting forum.

I suppose in a way all Im trying to say that there are other ways of culling "vermin" than discussing openly the best "bullets" to kill a goat/chicken,"insert name of innocent animal here"

TempestSabre

Nature is cruel.

peasant

Hellrazer wrote:

Farmer came back later that night and shot the 2 dogs in front of the kids who were in bed when he thought there was no one home.Then sent a bill for 2000 euro for the lost sheep.
Worst part of it was that he lost 2 more sheep to the same dogs a couple of nights later and he has still not apologised or offered compensation for the lost pets.

I take it said farmer was taken by the scruff of his neck down to the next garda station, banned from ever owning a gun again and subsequently prosecuted and fined ??

I do know that a farmer has the right to shoot dogs that worry his livestock ...but only if those dogs are caught in the act and on his land. I don't particularly like that law, but can see where it is coming from.

Trespassing onto somebody elses property and subsequently shooting their dogs on the other hand is a criminal offence ...nothing more nothing less.

Garth

peasant wrote:

I take it said farmer was taken by the scruff of his neck down to the next garda station, banned from ever owning a gun again and subsequently prosecuted and fined ??

Yeah, right. Can you imagine trying to ban a farmer from owning a gun (or doing anything he damn well feels like?).

Not here. Farmers are practically worshipped as saints.

civdef

Actually, the gardai will take any complaints involving misuse of a firearm seriously, and will not hesitate to take a gun off someone if they have been using it in an unsafe or criminal manner, farmers very much included.

If the case mentioned took place as described above, I hope the owners of the dog alerted the Gardai.

Dyr

WallysWorld wrote:

the average farmer would not be able to afford it so whats the alternative? I

Most my mothers family were farmers, they moaned about their finances when my parents were barely keeping their heads above water, they had'nt a clue what "poor" actually meant.

The average farmer in this country can well afford it. Whats more likely is that the average farmer is not going to pay a vet's bill when he can just pull a trigger. I've seen people on welfare taking serious whacks for vets bills because they cared enough about their animal's wellbeing to do the right thing "cant afford it" actually means "won't pay it"

fits

Garth wrote:

Yeah, right. Can you imagine trying to ban a farmer from owning a gun (or doing anything he damn well feels like?).

Not here. Farmers are practically worshipped as saints.

There is so much crap being written on this thread on both sides, its unreal!

All farmers are cruel, all city people know nothing...

The gardai do actually take misuse of a firearm seriously. My own dad lost sheep and lambs to a neighbours alsation. He saw the dog worrying sheep constantly. One day he arrived to find more sheep and lambs injured and dead and lost his temper, went home, got his shotgun and shot the dog in the neighbours yard. He was taken to court and lost his license. The neighbour conceded there was a problem with the dog, but quite rightly, wasnt going to let him away with behaviour like that.

Euthanising sick or injured animals such as a horse with a bad leg isnt always such a bad thing. Each individual case is different. Farmers do have to balance the books the same as the rest of us, and most try and do that with trying to treat their animals in the best way possible.

Hellrazer

civdef wrote:

If the case mentioned took place as described above, I hope the owners of the dog alerted the Gardai.

Nope..

They couldnt alert the garda as they were in the process of buying a site off the same fella to extend their house and were afraid that he`d pull out of the deal if they did and which he did threaten to do anyway.

And he kept quoting that he was well within his right to shoot the dogs.My brother in law wasnt even sure if he was lying or not.
And to be totally honest the two of them dont even speak anymore after the land deal went through despite them living 200 yards from each other.

I think this bloke has it in for them cos hes threatened to shoot the new dogs aswell if he caught them loose despite there being a radio fence up now surrounding the property and a huge run for the 2 of them when theres no one home.

FranknFurter

fits wrote:

Euthanising sick or injured animals such as a horse with a bad leg isnt always such a bad thing. Each individual case is different. Farmers do have to balance the books the same as the rest of us, and most try and do that with trying to treat their animals in the best way possible.

Their own animals yes, most do.

As somone said above, there are plenty of people below the poverty line who, by hook or by crook, manage to get proper vetinary assistance if an animal needs it.
Farmers are not vets, they have no right to "euthanise" any animal as far as I am concerned. Any who do are obviously doing it for nothing more than being stingey. IMO

B

fits

FranknFurter wrote:

Farmers are not vets, they have no right to "euthanise" any animal as far as I am concerned.

I dont think they should do it themselves either. Theres nothing wrong with asking a vet to do it though.

Making decisions about when your animals life is over is all part of farming isnt it?