Troublesome situation

LegacyUser

Hi,

Just want to find out some information.

Scenario: You've been back to a house with an accomplice and things get a bit frisky. Both of you move to the bedroom and engage in foreplay. While this is going on and both are undressed the other person decides themselves to take it upon them to engage in a sexual activity while putting your health at risk. This person asks you if you want to go ahead and you say NO but they decide to go ahead anyway. What would this be classed as? Rape? Assault?

Dragan

The simply fact is that no means no. It's up to you where you want to take it from here.

Nalz

I Second that . As mild and straight forward as you put it this is a serious matter, a very serious matter.

aidan24326

A bit more info. would be helpful.

When you say 'sexual activity that could put health at risk' I presume you mean full intercourse without any protection?

When you said no, what exactly happened then? He carried on regardless, did you say NO quite forcibly and repeatedly leaving no room for any doubt? Did you try to push him away? Were you powerless to do anything about it? Did he become aggressive? Did he hold you down? What happened afterwards? Do you know this guy or was it someone you'd only met that night?

Sorry for all the questions but your description of what happened is a bit vague. It does sound very dodgy to be fair, but it's difficult to say what else it was/wasn't with the limited information in your post. If you do feel that this was a rape/assault you will have to go to the gardai, but unfortunately you will need to be a good deal more specific about what actually took place.

turbot

To recap:

You are in a house with someone, and as you said, it got frisky.

Then you moved to a bedroom and took all your clothes off.

This usually means you're likely to engage in some kind of sexual activitiy... whether or not that includes intercourse.

I don't know how old you are, and I suspect you're rather young.

It's not unusual in the course of an evening for girls to tease and test guys by saying no, without meaning it. Many women if they were honest said at some point during the proceedings, they have said no, and then changed their minds.

Usually if you only say no to sexual activity when you have all your clothes off, you're not being very clear, to say the least.

So you haven't given us enough information to give you good advice.

Please describe exactly what happened, so we can help you.

Otherwise, based upon your description, it sounds like you are worried about this, while also exploring how to understand what happened.

I don't think that means it was rape or sexual assualt, unless you very clearly expressed no, when you were naked. IF you said no midly, then continued yourself, to me it would appear you behaved with full consent.

The morale of the story is to be responsible, and take responsibility for your own actions in such things.

up for anything

Would this not be classed as date rape?

Nevyn

There are many sexual activies can be classed as being a health risk.
more information is needed before any one jumps to conclusion.

LundiMardi

why are people assuming the OP is a female?

To be honest the first thing i thought of when reading the op was that some girl went down on him.

LegacyUser

Hi guys, what happened was I was pinned down with no way of actually freeing myself except a swift kick in the groin to get him off me. He asked if I wanted to go ahead and I said no quite clearly which could not be mistaken. He then proceeded to engage in intercourse to which I was disgusted. The whole manner of the situation left me with a rotten feeling. I know the guy and he thought I was joking when I said no. I however was not in any mood to be joking and am concerned because yes he did not have any protection which left me exposed. I'm tempted to seek legal advice about this because I think it is a serious matter.

@ turbot; I'm sick with the worry and yes I'm trying to come to terms with the whole matter.

Nevyn

Quandry I would suggest getting in touch with the rape crisis centre they deal with cases of sexual assualt as well and they can advise you.

No does mean no esp when it comes to unprotected sex as it puts your life and health at risk.
I would susgest you talk to your dr about getting screened for sti to put your mind at rest about that issue.

It is a serious matter and I wish you well in finding a way to resovle this issue.

LundiMardi

Quandry wrote:

Hi guys, what happened was I was pinned down with no way of actually freeing myself except a swift kick in the groin to get him off me. He asked if I wanted to go ahead and I said no quite clearly which could not be mistaken. He then proceeded to engage in intercourse to which I was disgusted. The whole manner of the situation left me with a rotten feeling. I know the guy and he thought I was joking when I said no. I however was not in any mood to be joking and am concerned because yes he did not have any protection which left me exposed. I'm tempted to seek legal advice about this because I think it is a serious matter.

@ turbot; I'm sick with the worry and yes I'm trying to come to terms with the whole matter.

May i ask at what point he actually stopped?

Nevyn

LundiMardi wrote:

May i ask at what point he actually stopped?

Why does this matter ?
The act of peneration which is not consensual is in fact considered to be rape.

takola

That is rape. I agree with Thaedydal, Contact the Rape Crisus Centre and go to your doctor to get checked for sti's.

They'll be able to give you better advice than any of us here.

up for anything

Hugs, Quandry. Did you actually kick him to stop him? I'd echo the others and suggest the Rape Crisis Centre. You sound too calm and detached about the event and it would probably do you a lot of good to talk it out with someone who has been there.

Moojuice

Quandry, that is a clearly rape, he pinned you down and you said no. It is a terrible thing to happen to anyone. Contact the rape crisis centre, they are in a better position to help you than anyone here. I feel so bad for you, no one should have to go through that. I hope it has not affected you too much (mentally and physically) Let us know what you decide/ how you get on.

aidan24326

Quandry wrote:

Hi guys, what happened was I was pinned down with no way of actually freeing myself except a swift kick in the groin to get him off me. He asked if I wanted to go ahead and I said no quite clearly which could not be mistaken. He then proceeded to engage in intercourse to which I was disgusted. The whole manner of the situation left me with a rotten feeling. I know the guy and he thought I was joking when I said no. I however was not in any mood to be joking and am concerned because yes he did not have any protection which left me exposed. I'm tempted to seek legal advice about this because I think it is a serious matter.

@ turbot; I'm sick with the worry and yes I'm trying to come to terms with the whole matter.

Did you tell the guy at the time that you felt he had just assaulted you? Is he aware of your feelings/disgust?

Also you mention being concerned about sti's, but what about pregnancy? I'm pretty sure you can get 'morning after pill' up to about 72 hours after the event. It's something else you may need to consider.

Speak with Rape Crisis Centre freephone 1800 778888 website www.drcc.ie, or even go along to a GP and tell him/her what happened.

LundiMardi

Thaedydal wrote:

Why does this matter ?
The act of peneration which is not consensual is in fact considered to be rape.

hmmm, i agree. But i still think it's relevant how it actually came to an end, did she start screaming for help, did he realise she wasn't joking and then stop realising his mistake? etc etc...

AngryBadger

If you say no and he proceeds it's rape, as has been advised the RCC is a good place to go for some proper advice.

Nevyn

LundiMardi wrote:

hmmm, i agree. But i still think it's relevant how it actually came to an end, did she start screaming for help, did he realise she wasn't joking and then stop realising his mistake? etc etc...

Sounds more like you want more of the story and retelling it may be tramatic enough for the op so it is best not to pressurise them but to encourage them to get professional help.

kittex

I'm disheartened by the number of posters who see grey areas here.

The girl said no. End of story. Men and women have the right to say no at any stage in the proceedings.
She now deserves support and advice, not probing questions.

Quandry, I wish you all the best with this issue. Please do contact Rape Crisis and arrange to speak to a counsellor. They can help you decide what to do. Even if you decide not to do anything in terms of charging the man, they can continue to offer support.

LundiMardi

Thaedydal wrote:

Sounds more like you want more of the story and retelling it may be tramatic enough for the op so it is best not to pressurise them but to encourage them to get professional help.

Fair enough.

OP, like other people have said, you said no yet he continued. It is rape, be sure to talk to a professional about it.

Black Swan

Thaedydal wrote:

Quandry I would suggest getting in touch with the rape crisis centre they deal with cases of sexual assualt as well and they can advise you.

No does mean no esp when it comes to unprotected sex as it puts your life and health at risk.
I would susgest you talk to your dr about getting screened for sti to put your mind at rest about that issue.

It is a serious matter and I wish you well in finding a way to resovle this issue.

Good advice!

the_syco

No means no, but I'd ask the OP not to put themselves in a position where they are unable to physically stop someone. TBH, if it was against your will, him tying you to a bed, and f*cking you after you saying no, I'd say you'd have a good case on your side.

Don't answer the following, as you don't have to, but I ask as I'm curious: why did you let him tie you up, or did you let him? ie: did he tie you down by force?

lostone

Yep if you said no then the he should have stopped...It bothers me so much that guys do things like this...I cant fathom it...get help and i wish you all the best that guy is scum and shouldnt be allowed near another female....

Chinafoot

the_syco wrote:

Don't answer the following, as you don't have to, but I ask as I'm curious: why did you let him tie you up, or did you let him? ie: did he tie you down by force?

From her second post I got the impression that he didn't actually tie her down but rather had her pinned using his bodyweight. Hence the swift kick being the only way to get him off her.

OP: It's rape. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you screamed your head off in fear or if you lay there unable to speak after you've said no.

Contact the RCC and as hard as it is, don't let him get away with it. Regardless of how consentual the foreplay was, once you said no and he continued, he crossed the line. Too many people get away with this.

turbot

Quandry,

I appreciate you say you were pinned down with no way of escaping without being violent, but you also said you got to this position by starting off being frisky, then going to the bedroom, and then getting naked.

This sequence of events usually ends up with intercourse, though hopefully you're sober and wise enough to use protection well, and choose carefully who you have sex with.

So the issues are right now to help you make sense of the situation:

1) What can you do to safeguard your health?
**********************************

a) it's probably smart that you have an STI test. That way you can determine any health implications. Keep in mind that if you haven't had one recently, then if you do test positive, he may not be to blame. Go private, at a cost of 150 ish euros, and you'll get results within a week.

b) if you haven't already, and this happened less than 72 hours ago, you should immediately take the morning after pill (which can be effective for up to 72 hours after sex as I understand).

c) how can you learn from this situation to prevent it from happening again?


2) How can you explore and understand the situation to make sense of it?
*******************************************************

I think the questions you need to ask yourself are:

- To what extent did your actions prior to this event imply to him you were probably going to have sex?

- What level of sexual experience do you have? What prior sexual history did you have with this guy?

- How sober / intoxicated were you? To what extent could the shock of what happened cloud your rationale judgement of what's fair and smart in this situation?

- When you said no, did you make it sufficiently clear, to him, that you really meant no? How could he have thought you were joking, if you were
screaming and struggling NO, STOP?

- Based on how you communicated at that point, and everything that went before, is it reasonable that you didn't communicate responsibly?

- Did you struggle / cry while he had intercourse, or partially enjoy it and kiss him back, only to afterwards realise you did something you hadn't intended, and freak out as you thought about potential consequences?

- Have you spoken to him about it?

- Was it a risky time of the month?

It may be helpful for you to talk this through with someone on a helpline, to get smarter perspective on it. For the sake of fairness and freedom and everything that may mean to a persons life, be honest with yourself and whomever you talk to. Recall and explore what happened before judging.


Kittex:

I'm disheartened with the number of women who are willing to assume rape without properly understanding what happened, and especially without taking responsibility for their role in the proceedings.

Given the oft quoted statistic that words account for only 7% of the communication, NO means NO when it's accompanied by congruent action.
Without being aware of the details, saying no, when someone is on top of you, and you've both got consensually naked, while kissing, may not be clearly interpretted.

It's ridiculous on your behalf and in my view, immature, that you think this isn't a grey area, when you've only heard one persons story, and a vague recount at that, through a written medium, wherein you can't guage the persons body language or anything else that helps you make sense of the quality of what they are saying.

Men and women play sexual power games all the time.
Many women are more apt at playing these psychological guys than guys, its in their nature. Because of this:

- Many women flirt a lot, so guys will buy them drinks.
- Many women use their attractiveness to get what they want, from skipping queues to manipulating parking attendants to being promoted.
- Many women will tease guys, offering the prospect of sex, to get what they want, test their skills and even boost their egos.

Despite all this:

- Many women know they can be good at controlling guys, yet scoff when a situation where a guy loses control of himself, if you call it that, and does what he's genetically programmed to do.

What can be disheartening is that some women like to harbor and enjoy a monopoly on sexual power, without the graciousness to only use their power with wisdom for all concerned.

There are some cases of rape that are black and white and obviously non consensual.

At the same time, there are many situations that are grey areas.

In the latter, the the problem doesn't usually occur at the point when someone says yes or no; it occurs when people aren't responsible for their own sexuality, or understanding and exploring it, so they can use it wisely, and express themselves congruently.

To cope with this, in america, many celebrities now use sexual consent sheets, to attain signed waivers that someone will sleep with them.

metrovelvet

turbot wrote:

I think the questions you need to ask yourself are:

- To what extent did your actions prior to this event imply to him you were probably going to have sex? .

What has that got to do with anything? Are you saying she led him on? So therefore its not rape?

turbot wrote:

- What level of sexual experience do you have? What prior sexual history did you have with this guy? .

Irrelevant.

turbot wrote:

- When you said no, did you make it sufficiently clear, to him, that you really meant no? How could he have thought you were joking, if you were
screaming and struggling NO, STOP? .

Are you watching too many westerns with girls tied to train tracks. Oh please.

turbot wrote:

- Based on how you communicated at that point, and everything that went before, is it reasonable that you didn't communicate responsibly? .

More blame the victim tripe.

turbot wrote:

- Did you struggle / cry while he had intercourse, or partially enjoy it and kiss him back, only to afterwards realise you did something you hadn't intended, and freak out as you thought about potential consequences? .

There are no words to describe how I would like to respond to this.

turbot wrote:

- Have you spoken to him about it?.

Newsflash. Most women dont like talking to their rapists.

turbot wrote:

Given the oft quoted statistic that words account for only 7% of the communication, NO means NO when it's accompanied by congruent action.
Without being aware of the details, saying no, when someone is on top of you, and you've both got consensually naked, while kissing, may not be clearly interpretted. ?.

No. Anyone with half a brain knows that in sexual consent you cannot go by body language. There are class and cultural differences, not to mention alcohol influences ones which makes it not the best bet to go on. No means no.

turbot wrote:

Men and women play sexual power games all the time.
Many women are more apt at playing these psychological guys than guys, its in their nature. ?.

Excuse me? What exactly is that supposed to mean? "Because of their nature."

turbot wrote:

- Many women flirt a lot, so guys will buy them drinks. ?.
- Many women use their attractiveness to get what they want, from skipping queues to manipulating parking attendants to being promoted.
- Many women will tease guys, offering the prospect of sex, to get what they want, test their skills and even boost their egos. ?.

What utter mysogynistic tripe. That you could write this on a thread about a possible rape is grossly insensitve and reflects more on your attitude to women then on any truth related to rape or male/female relations.

Despite all this:

turbot wrote:

- Many women know they can be good at controlling guys, yet scoff when a situation where a guy loses control of himself, if you call it that, and does what he's genetically programmed to do. ?.

Yeah thats why women have been stuck in kitchens for centuries, burnt at for witchery, make half as much money as men do, etc etc.

turbot wrote:

What can be disheartening is that some women like to harbor and enjoy a monopoly on sexual power, without the graciousness to only use their power with wisdom for all concerned.?.

Whats your point? How is this germaine to the OPs dilemna?

And there are some men who like to rape women. There are some men who like to manipulate and emotionally blackmail women into sex. There are some men who go out of their way to pick the drunkest woman in the pub to rape because she will lack credibilty when the rape charge is made.

Nevyn

Right stop it right there if you want to debate such things start a thread in humanities as the last two post are not helpful to the op at all.
Any one going off topic will be banned imediatly.

Marksie

He asked, you said no. It should have finished there.
OP: get to the RCC and get yourself checked out. Have some professional advise and someone who you can talk to.

turbot

Thaedydal,

The questions I posted were to help the OP / Quandry explore and understand what happened for herself, so she can be wiser about the whole situation.

Given she's asking how to understand it, good questions are useful.


MetroVelvet,

You criticize the questions I asked, yet this whole matter ought to be handled delicately and wisely.

Quandry has said that she's sick with worry (initially about potential health issues).

She also said that, after getting frisky, then moving to a bedroom, and getting naked, at some point she clearly expressed no, and he thought she was joking. I don't understand how, if she clearly expressed herself, he could have thought she was joking. Though I accept she may have only understood this afterwards, yet if she was aware he thought she was joking, then I don't understand why she didn't express herself more powerfully.

There is a saying "The meaning of your communication is the response you elicit".

Given that she describes she consensually was frisky, then consensually moved to the bedroom and got naked, this whole topic is about a detail of what happened. This detail is totally relevant and worth making sense of.

Since she is exploring this to understand it better, to give reasonable advice, understanding the context around this detail is important, including exactly what she said and how she communicated, and what happened leading up to this.

Jumping to conclusions before gathering detailed information, as you seem to be, is surely more reactionary instead of decent. I've asked these questions to gather detailed information.


As to the rest of this post to Kittex, this was a response to her.
I said some women, which is different to all.
These points are relevant because they help put in context the standard reaction of agreeing with the alledged victim, before sufficient details have been gathered.

Some of my best friends are women, who are very open about their interactions with guys, including what they can get away with.

Quandry,

I encourage you to be balanced and wise in whatever you do next.

Marksie

turbot wrote:

Thaedydal,

The questions I posted were to help the OP / Quandry explore and understand what happened for herself, so she can be wiser about the whole situation.

Given she's asking how to understand it, good questions are useful.


MetroVelvet,

You criticize the questions I asked, yet this whole matter ought to be handled delicately and wisely.

Quandry has said that she's sick with worry (initially about potential health issues).

She also said that, after getting frisky, then moving to a bedroom, and getting naked, at some point she clearly expressed no, and he thought she was joking. I don't understand how, if she clearly expressed herself, he could have thought she was joking. Though I accept she may have only understood this afterwards, yet if she was aware he thought she was joking, then I don't understand why she didn't express herself more powerfully.

There is a saying "The meaning of your communication is the response you elicit".

Given that she describes she consensually was frisky, then consensually moved to the bedroom and got naked, this whole topic is about a detail of what happened. This detail is totally relevant and worth making sense of.

Since she is exploring this to understand it better, to give reasonable advice, understanding the context around this detail is important, including exactly what she said and how she communicated, and what happened leading up to this.

Jumping to conclusions before gathering detailed information, as you seem to be, is surely more reactionary instead of decent. I've asked these questions to gather detailed information.


As to the rest of this post to Kittex, this was a response to her.
I said some women, which is different to all.
These points are relevant because they help put in context the standard reaction of agreeing with the alledged victim, before sufficient details have been gathered.

Some of my best friends are women, who are very open about their interactions with guys, including what they can get away with.

Quandry,

I encourage you to be balanced and wise in whatever you do next.

It is probably best, that the OP talks this through with trained councillors/advisors before deciding on a course of action.
It should be done sooner than later. Particlualry if a medical exam (as compared to an STI screen) may be required.

Jim10000

Just to support the OP and to balance some of the opinions that have been given already I would like to agree that in the kind of situation the OP described 'no' means 'no'. There is no grey area. I don't see how there can be any confusion. There is a line crossed between foreplay and penetrative sex and it sounds like the man in this situation crossed the line after the OP said no. No excuses, such he thought she was joking, are good enough.

Nor should what a man does in these circumstances be influenced by anything else, like what has happened before for instance, his knowledge of 'the games women play' or any other misogynistic views he might have.

Without jumping to any conclusions, I'd agree with others who said the the OP should get some professional help and I hope she's able to put her fears behind her.

kittex

I think enough response to turbot has been made, I need to say no more. In fact, I'd better not or I'll likely lose it.

Although I would like to strongly agree with the moderater's note that asking such detailed questions of the OP is not needed.
This is likely an emotional enough situation without having to justify herself and give gory details for people to pass judgement on the internet.

Best discussed with Rape Crisis.