Bring back terracing!

therecklessone

Said this before, but the more I've read the last week the more I've been convinced it should happen.

This is The Wall @ Dortmund

Not the greatest pic, but you get the idea

It holds 24000...:eek: Biggest standing area in Europe.

This is an interesting reply from an FA customer relations rep to a letter sent by UK lobby group Stand Up Sit Down:

With regards to the FA Cup Final, a request was made on the back of the match ticket for fans to remain seated at all times, i.e. around the stadium. However, as I'm sure you can appreciate, this would be very difficult for stewards to implement and maintain when large numbers of fans refuse to co-operate'.

‘I can assure you that al concerned with safety in football grounds are doing what they can to solve the problem, but if supporters are determined to stand up, experience has shown that it is very difficult for the club stewards and/or police to get them to remain seated throughout the game. Deploying stewards or police to eject possibly large numbers of supporters could provoke an even greater threat to the safety of spectators and the stewards/police.

Source

So they've admitted the policy is largely unworkable. Time for an overhaul of the policy methinks. I've stood at Wigan, Bolton, Boro, Fulham and Chelsea last season, and have to say the atmosphere has been electric. We took 5000 to Wigan in the PL last November and stood for the 90 minutes, had a ball, there was zero trouble, just a great bunch of travelling support behind their team.

therecklessone

p.s. that Dortumd picture was from their friendly agaisnt Spurs last Saturday. What a turnout...

KdjaCL

http://elitrix.net/saints/album_pic.php?pic_id=29

Bring back what now?


I actually dread the day it goes, a lot may say progress etc: all seater stadia etc:

Cant beat a good solid chunk of concrete with steps on it.


kdjac

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

http://elitrix.net/saints/album_pic.php?pic_id=29

Bring back what now?


I actually dread the day it goes, a lot may say progress etc: all seater stadia etc:

Cant beat a good solid chunk of concrete with steps on it.


kdjac

Sorry chap, got my Spurs hat on this evening...:D

How could you not be impressed by that Dortmund terrace? And they're allowed drink beer while watching the game...

KdjaCL

Its ok to stand in a seated area as the seats keep the fans apart in case of a push, the Wall i dunno if you noticed when it was empty had little barriers to make cages so its actually safe to stand in it.

Man U fans tried it before and i think were stamped out. But standing ares could easily be made safe just doubt you will see it in England any time soon.


kdjac

Kingp35

I absolutely love terraces. I get tickets for Hill 16 for every Dublin game and the atmosphere is just amazing. Same goes for Ireland Rugby games when you are in the terraces. If done right then there will be no safety issue. Hill 16 has been around for so long and is always full of people half drunk and there is never any safety issues.

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

Its ok to stand in a seated area as the seats keep the fans apart in case of a push, the Wall i dunno if you noticed when it was empty had little barriers to make cages so its actually safe to stand in it.

Man U fans tried it before and i think were stamped out. But standing ares could easily be made safe just doubt you will see it in England any time soon.


kdjac

Thats the thing, nobody wants a return to the bad old days. The science of crowd control ahs come on leaps and bounds, people can be safely accomodated in terraced areas, as things currently stand (pardon the pun ), standing in seated areas suits nobody...not those who want to stand but occassionally get grief from stewards, and not those who want to sit but are forced to stand because they can't see.

therecklessone

Kingp35 wrote:

I absolutely love terraces. I get tickets for Hill 16 for every Dublin game and the atmosphere is just amazing. Same goes for Ireland Rugby games when you are in the terraces. If done right then there will be no safety issue. Hill 16 has been around for so long and is always full of people half drunk and there is never any safety issues.

My old man was at the All-Ireland Dublin-Cork semi in Croker in 83, started behind the goals ended up beside the Cusack. Told me he was never terrified at a match apart from that day.

That said, when I was a kid going with him in the late 80s, I used to be more afraid of the crush on the way down to the turnstiles then I was in the ground...:D

el rabitos

yeah, lets bring them back and have people squashed to death.

seating is 10 times better, the biggest plus being u dont have some giraffe of an over grown lump standing in ur way when ur trying to see some akshun u paid big bills to see.

losing them hasnt detracted too badly from the atmosphere in stadiums, so their pointless imo

therecklessone

el rabitos wrote:

yeah, lets bring them back and have people squashed to death.

Way to miss the point. Safe terracing exists, like I said above, the science of crowd control has advanced hugely since the tragedy at Hillsborough.

Unless your suggesting that the Bundesliega is an unsafe league to watch football in?

I can't compare and contrast since I was a wee nipper the last time terracing was allowed in England, but from talking to old timers who've seen it all they say the stadiums are like morgues compared to pre-Taylor report years.

Try asking Liverpool fans who stood on the Kop what they think of all seater arenas.

Kingp35

el rabitos wrote:

yeah, lets bring them back and have people squashed to death.

Yeah sure you here of so many people squashed to death in Croker and Landsdowne :rolleyes:

If safe terracing is implemented in these sports then it can be the same for soccer and is in the case of Dortmund.

Guy:Incognito

therecklessone wrote:

Way to miss the point. Safe terracing exists, like I said above, the science of crowd control has advanced hugely since the tragedy at Hillsborough.

Unless your suggesting that the Bundesliega is an unsafe league to watch football in?

I can't compare and contrast since I was a wee nipper the last time terracing was allowed in England, but from talking to old timers who've seen it all they say the stadiums are like morgues compared to pre-Taylor report years.

Try asking Liverpool fans who stood on the Kop what they think of all seater arenas.

Do UEFA allow them to use the terraced section in Europe?

therecklessone

Stekelly wrote:

Do UEFA allow them to use the terraced section in Europe?

No, they install seating for European games.

therecklessone

Interesting Guardian article

"My lovely son Kevin did not die because of standing on terraces, he died because of the lack of control and care by South Yorkshire Police. I believe terraces are safe without perimeter fences. Standing never killed anybody, cages and treating people like animals did."

Anne Williams, chair of Hillsborough Justice Campaign, mother of 15-year-old Kevin, who died in pen three.

The Football Licensing Authority are unwilling to even allow discussion on the possibility of limited standing returning, maybe because they are predisposed to view football fans as hooligans who need to be strictly controlled?

"It's a question of culture, the way the fans behave here compared to the way they do there," says de Quidt. [FLA chief exectutive] "It tends to be a defined sort of crowd that we get at football games here." No mention, strangely, of the German fans who went on the rampage little more than a fortnight ago in Slovenia, smashing cars, throwing flares, and clashing with policemen.

"Standing would change the whole character of football crowds these days," he went on. "You're likely to lose the women and older people who tend to be a civilising force on the crowd, and be left with masses of testosterone-fuelled young men."

Except nobody wants to return to the pre-Taylor days. Most pressure groups accept that a lot of people want to sit at games, and not just women and children. What they're asking for is consideration of the introduction of limited safe standing areas for fans who currently stand at their alloted seat anyway.

standing accommodation is not intrinsically unsafe

Who said that? Lord Justice Taylor of Gosforth, author of the Taylor Report.

Andrew 83

In the Nou Camp they have a little rail in front of each seat. I assumed it was there for standing, didn't seem any other reason why it should have been there though it was handy to lean on while sitting too.

Personally I would not be exactly thrilled to have terracing back in large numbers given the accidents of the past but as it has been proven elsewhere that safety is possible, I wouldn't have a problem with small specific areas being set aside, particularly with an age restriction.


(With regards to alcohol, I've been to stadiums in Spain - Camp Nou and Vicente Calderon - where it is allowed but I wouldn't support it in English grounds, I think it's asking for trouble)

The Rooster

therecklessone wrote:

My old man was at the All-Ireland Dublin-Cork semi in Croker in 83, started behind the goals ended up beside the Cusack. Told me he was never terrified at a match apart from that day.

The Hill was not safe in 1983.

It has since been rebuilt and is now perfectly safe. Any terrace with the correct amount of barriers properly positioned and walkways and entrances/exits properly stewarded would be absolutely safe from crush.

People who say "terracing is not safe - look at hillsborough" don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Töpher

Can't watch football sitting down, just can't. Well, obviously it can be done, but its generally much more enjoyable standing.

LostinBlanch

KdjaC wrote:

Man U fans tried it before and i think were stamped out. But standing ares could easily be made safe just doubt you will see it in England any time soon.
kdjac

Easy for other clubs to ban United fans safe in the knowledge that they are practically assured of selling out all seats. Boro and Charlton come to mind. Charlton are actually advertising

But the club has also threatened to ban away fans for also standing, among other things. Easy target, that way they don't have to give away tickets for the likes of Arsenal, Pool, Chelsea etc to the hardcore fans who actually support the team through thick and thin. Instead the away allocation goes to corporates and day trippers who will pay more for these tickets. Never mind the loss of support for the team. Charlton reduced Uniteds allocation and are now offering tickets to corporate fans.

And if you think it'sjust a United thing, wait and see what'll happen when other clubs see that there's more money to be made from this. Not a good thing, not good at all.

RE*AC*TOR

Can't see it happening. EVER. Too many people have died.

The Rooster

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Can't see it happening. EVER. Too many people have died.

Totally irrelevant, but I agree that it is the biggest factor preventing the return of terraces to soccer.

Just because some terraces used to be dangerous, does not mean that all terraces are dangerous. But thats a concept a lot of people can't comprehend.

iregk

Well as a Milan fan I've been in the San Siro many times and seats are purely extra cusioning for the feet. Most italian stadiums have the small plastic seats on top of concrete for a reason, most fans stand on them! I hate sitting at football games, it just feels wrong and its so much easier to get athmostphere going when your standing as you can jump and dance then as well.

Going to an ireland game for a friendly I always go into the terraces, much better craic when your on your feet.

Andrew 83

iregk wrote:

Going to an ireland game for a friendly I always go into the terraces, much better craic when your on your feet.

While I understand what you're saying you get a much better view and can follow the intricacies of the game much better from the East/West stands. But for each his own preference, the atmosphere can sometimes be completely dead there.

kensutz

No matter what ground you go to in England the majority of away fans are standing. Every game I've been to at Carrow Road, the away fans stand and are well policed. Also they sit in the South Stand which is a brand new part of the ground and view points are second to none so they cant complain about not seeing anything if seated.

When I do away trips we are standing. You'll have some stewards come up to you and tell you to sit down but try saying that to 2000 + away supporters and it's proved pointless. Fans love standing and will always look for terracing to come back. It adds to the atmosphere and if done properly can be a huge success. Cardiff still have terracing in the away end along with a few other grounds.

Bateman

People should take the time to read up on the seating jobs that were done in English grounds, the company that did 90% of them, and the links between them and people in the FA, who wouldn't at all have been dissapointed when Taylor published his recommendations.

I can't see safe standing coming back anytime soon in England. The clubs are doing fine with all-seaters, they are selling plenty of tickets to shirt-wearing families, and I wouldn't imagine they are interested in changing. The fans will have to present more of a case than they have done so far, but to be honest I don't think there's a whole lot more they can do to convince on the issue. As long as there are still people ignorant enough to come out with Maud Flanders type rubbish about people getting crushed, then there is still a long way to go.

iregk

Bateman wrote:

As long as there are still people ignorant enough to come out with Maud Flanders type rubbish about people getting crushed, then there is still a long way to go.

Won't somebody please think of the children!!!

DerekD Goldfish

he clubs are doing fine with all-seaters, they are selling plenty of tickets to shirt-wearing families,

Obvioulsy not enough if attendances in the Premiership are falling (altough this is partaly due to some bigger teams going down)

PHB

Standing - Requires the Police to control the crowd effectivly to make safe
Seated - Even without effective Police control, it is still safe

One allows the possibility of human error which causes death, one doesn't.
It's a pretty simple choice to any government officials.

p.s. I'm very much in favour of safe-standing.

Zebra3

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Can't see it happening. EVER. Too many people have died.

And when people die in a seated area, will seats be banned then? Everyone will have to sit at home and watch games on tv. Wouldn't affect a lot of people in fairness....

Maybe ban cars too. Lots of people die cos of them. :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Zebra3 wrote:

And when people die in a seated area, will seats be banned then? Everyone will have to sit at home and watch games on tv. Wouldn't affect a lot of people in fairness....

Maybe ban cars too. Lots of people die cos of them. :rolleyes:

Your argueing for the sake of it now. How exactly could a crush start in seating when peole cant get withing 1-2 feet of each other. Plus , overcrowding cant occur with seats.

I have to say, I respect peoples views that they want to stand,but personally I prefer to be seated. I only stood once, at an Ireland rugby game in Landsdowne a few years back. I didnt enjoy it at all. Coulnt see properly and the "jostlying" meant I couldnt get settled. I like to be able to see all the action and watch the game properly for my €30-€50. If I want to have banter and jump about , I'll watch the game at home or in the pub with mates.

therecklessone

Stekelly wrote:

I have to say, I respect peoples views that they want to stand,but personally I prefer to be seated. I only stood once, at an Ireland rugby game in Landsdowne a few years back. I didnt enjoy it at all. Coulnt see properly and the "jostlying" meant I couldnt get settled. I like to be able to see all the action and watch the game properly for my €30-€50. If I want to have banter and jump about , I'll watch the game at home or in the pub with mates.

You're entitled to your opinion, which is why the suggested solution is safe standing areas in some parts of the ground. Nobody wants to make football grounds all standing, just allow some terracing with the proper controls.

Kingp35

Stekelly wrote:

Plus , overcrowding cant occur with seats.

Overcrowding shouldnt occur anyway if the club has the cop on not to oversell the terraces.

applehunter

i think the loss of the terrace has destroyed much of the atmosphere at English games. Speaking from my experience at Anfield I was repeatedly told to sit down during the game.

This is alien to me cause I always stand at matches at home.

Since the loss of the "Shed" at Turners Cross there has been a marked loss of atmosphere. Its also not as fun anymore. Part of being in the terrace is the banter and the humour.

English clubs should do what they do in Germany IMO.

Guy:Incognito

applehunter wrote:

i think the loss of the terrace has destroyed much of the atmosphere at English games. Speaking from my experience at Anfield I was repeatedly told to sit down during the game.

This is alien to me cause I always stand at matches at home.

Since the loss of the "Shed" at Turners Cross there has been a marked loss of atmosphere. Its also not as fun anymore. Part of being in the terrace is the banter and the humour.

English clubs should do what they do in Germany IMO.

The atmosphere in Anfield is gone to pot because of the people in it. I was over twice last season, the first I was in the kop and the atmosphere was electric. The 2nd I was in the main stand surrounded by heaps of spanish and other fairweather fans who just werent interested in singing or building any atmosphere and only cheered when alonso came down the lin eto warm up. The atmosphere on European nights is generally good because the stadium isnt filled with weekenders and is mostly the core fans.