'Plot to blow up planes' foiled

kenny11

I cant believe that so many appearently intelligent people see a conspiracy against the general population behind every door and are so eager to pander to the muslim commmunity.

People have been killed in New york, Bali Twice, Madrid and London in the last five years by muslim terrorists. Other attacks have been prevented by the US and Britain, I am glad that at least there is someone out there helping to ensure that the general law abaiding population are kept safe. If that means that a small minority are upset by that then so be it.

New_Departure06

Congrats to the Brits on foiling this monstrous and diabolic terrorist plot. However on another note, this confirms that American, British and Israeli foreign policies are stoking up anti-Western feeling in the Muslim world and creating fertile ground for extremism and terrorism. They need to wake up and see sense. A more neutral policy on the Middle East is urgently needed, as is a withdrawl from Iraq.

aidan24326

Tyrone wrote:

In my honest opinion you will get the straight story from fox news 99% of the time.

I trust that was intended as a joke.

dathi1

People have been killed in New york, Bali Twice, Madrid and London in the last five years by muslim terrorists. Other attacks have been prevented by the US and Britain, I am glad that at least there is someone out there helping to ensure that the general law abaiding population are kept safe. If that means that a small minority are upset by that then so be it.

You'd swear that a thousand Lebanese people weren’t murdered in the last 2 weeks by the biggest, vicious, land grabbing, terrorist state that ever existed reading that last statement. I beginning to think Amadinijad isn’t too far off the mark.

Flukey

Tyrone wrote:

Flukey, Flukey, Flukey, those pristine Twin Towers were the "WORLD TRADE CENTER" People from many nations had offices there. Many of the people that died were not Americans. It was not just a shot at Americans, it was a shot at the whole world.

I know what they were Tyrone and the multitude of various people represented in them. Give me some credit. It was a shot at Western Capitalism and a major symbol for America, and done on American soil. They were hardly going to go around looking for a building with exclusively Americans working in it, but the attack was primarily aimed at America. Don't forget where the other two planes were heading, one apparently reaching its target.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

To answer your question I'm not comparing chalk with cheese I'm questioning the reliability of the intelligence organisations who we know in the past lied and mislead the public.

You are because its the police,the anti terrorist branch of the police who arrested those people today and they must openly go through the due legal process.Thats completely different to the set up for the Iraq war.

Of course the public need to be warned on genuine threats. I just want to know if this particular threat is genuine or if it was hyped up for political reasons.

What possible reason could Blair have to hype up a threat like this? It's not to save his skin because in reality,the tories, the only alternative UK government are and always have been more Go Go USA than the labour party.

I only question it because fear has been used for political purposes quite a lot recently by the UK and US to justify the war on terror and until I know more about what actually happened today I will withhold judgment.

Actually I see the opposite.I think people are more and more seeing the threat that Alqueda are but also increasingly seeing that the way out is not the Bush Blair way out.

another mod (Billy I think) asked questions about the timing of the threat and if it was a cover to deflect pressure you seemed to address his concerns in a very respectable and less confrontational manner compared to your reply to me. I'm sure it was probably just due to my own poor illustration of my points.

Probably because he only posted one line... ergo he got a one line answer.You on the other hand posted some long posts which required longer replies.
Oh and by the way you shouldnt confuse disagreeing with you with disrespecting you,they're chalk and cheese

kenny11

The people of Lebannon have supported and still support Hezbollah, it is sad that so many people have died there but Israel is only protecting itself. Once again ia country is slated for taking self protection measures.

dathi1

dathi1 wrote:

You'd swear that a thousand Lebanese people weren’t murdered in the last 2 weeks by the biggest, vicious, land grabbing, terrorist state that ever existed reading that last statement. I beginning to think Amadinijad isn’t too far off the mark.

While I'd go along with you to the extent that I think Israel are going about this very very wrongly,I'd rather you didnt go down the road of using this board as a soapbox for the advocation of the destruction of israel like amadinijad.
So I'll formally tell you here and anyone else thats tempted that you are not to do this.
We are here to discuss things and not to go about advocating the distruction of Jews muslims,Christians,non believers,their countries, their states etc etc etc.

So discuss politics here please without advocating violence.

This instruction is also directed at Tyrone by the way.

dathi1

Earthman,
You're over modding. Amadinejad said he would wipe the Zionist regime off the map. The Persian translation was deliberately hyped by western media. cbsnews interview on Sunday puts this to rest. Advocating violence goes both ways...If you support Israeli actions or whatever.

metrovelvet

I wonder what plots are still out there - that they havent foiled. I dont want to die in the subways with the rats.

Lirange

Maybe at one time a government scare tactic like this could mould public opinion favourably in mobilising against the "war on terrror." But that time has passed. If anything it just further demonstrates how incompetent the US/UK governments have been. It undercuts Bush's idiotic claim about the Iraq charade, "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here."

After the reports of the foiled plot on NYC bridges recently Bush's ratings didn't improve. They went south. I doubt this is a goverment ploy. Moreover, these days they are likely to be more hurt by something like this than aided. If the evidence turns out to be shoddy or incomplete it will only undermine them more. Such drastic steps also risk economic damage.

dathi1

dathi1 wrote:

Earthman,
You're over modding.

You can take that to feedback if you wish.
One thing I'm not going to allow on this board is any advocation of violence when I see it,either towards other posters,other countries or soap boxing terrorism.
This place is not meant to be used as a soap box ESPCIALLY for wiping out countries.
I've warned Tyrone for the same reason I'm warning you.

Any further discussion of this in this thread and I will issue a 1 week ban.

Flukey

kenny11 wrote:

The people of Lebannon have supported and still support Hezbollah, it is sad that so many people have died there but Israel is only protecting itself. Once again ia country is slated for taking self protection measures.

That is not quite the case. A country can defend itself, as Israel has the right to do, without firing a shot at anyone. Israel is currently attacking, not defending. If it did only defend itself, that would be fine, but it is not. It can put a range of measures into place to defend itself, without a single shot being fired.

A lot of people in Lebanon do not support Hezbollah and never will, but the current wave of bombing on Lebanon is creating more support for them. If you were in Lebanon, and not a fan of Hezbollah, and your house was bombed, would you be more likely to thank the Israelis for trying to get Hezbollah, or feel like getting revenge on those that have just destroyed your home? That is the position that many people find themselves in now, and some of them will support or even join Hezbollah, having never considered doing so in the past.

Israel's tactics is head of the hydra stuff. They cut one head off and two more grow in its place. It should indeed defend itself, but not in the way it is now. If anything it is making them more vulnerable. So you see a lot of people saying that they should stop are not necessarily saying so because they are against Israel, but because it would be of more benefit to all concerned, on both sides. It will give space for new tactics to be employed, to solve all this. Hezbollah, a terrorist organisation, is doing what we expect of it, attacking civilians. We expect more from a sovereign government though, not it employing similar tactics. They are the party to this that we expect more responsibility from, so that is why they must be expected to make the first move. Peace is the best way of defending itself.

Flukey

Much of the day we saw the suburb in England where they arrested suspected terrorists. So, a question for those supporting Israel's response to Hezbollah: Is this where we go in with an airstrike and blow the whole suburb away to get the terrorists that may still be there?

metrovelvet

Wait - Are they thinking this is Al Q or Hezbollah?

metrovelvet

InFront wrote:

Almost definitely, the most offensive, ill-thought out, downright stupid comment in politics recently, from a poster who AFAIR has otherwise tended to express her opinions with a bit of sense.

Look. I cannot be objective about this. I live in NYC and at the moment am very very frightened.

Flukey

metrovelvet wrote:

Wait - Are they thinking this is Al Q or Hezbollah?

To those that advocate going in and blowing the hell out of them, minor details such as that, or the fact that they may be innocent civilians, makes no difference. As I've been saying all along going in and blowing up people is not the solution. It is strange that those who are afraid of people blowing up people are advocating policies of going in and blowing up people. A bit of a contradiction, wouldn't you say?

Oh and Metrovelvet, the very fact that you are frightened is all the more reason to be objective about this. Ill-thought out knee jerk reactions will only make things worse.

metrovelvet

Huh?

I just want to know who they think is behind the plots.

Flukey

Al Q'aida doesn't exist as such. It is a very loosely aligned, if connected at all, group of various organisations. There is a perception that it is some highly structured organisation with Osama Bin Laden sitting at the top handing down orders and people planning out attacks. For all we know the people that did this are quite possibly purely acting on their own initiative. It could be just a group of guys with no affiliations to anyone. The government and media may paint it otherwise, but that may be all it is.

metrovelvet

I didnt ask you for your theories. I want to know who the officials are pointing to, not who arbitrary teen age conspiracy theorists think it is.

Flukey

I am not an arbitrary teenage conspiracy theorist. My teenage days are long gone. I can't give you a list of names or affiliations of these people any more than you can. Actually, some of them may be teenagers it has been reported, funnily enough. More than that, I can't tell you. Just don't necessarily believe everything that they do tell you. We can never know for sure. We are still waiting to find out who shot JFK don't forget.

InFront

There is such an obsession with the idea of 'whudunnit'. We don't need an inquiry or a trial or an American led invasion to teach us that the people 'whudunnit' are sparse, diffuse individuals, just like Mohammad Sidique Khan and the other London bombers. Finger pointing at al-Queda, or Hezbollah, or attempting to bring down Ahmedinijad is missing the point, and is a silly attempt at localising the problem to one or a few quarters.

The new ideology of extremism is everywhere. Surely the London bombings taught us that. I've always argued that Islam in Ireland is as peaceful as Catholicism, and it is. But I feel that opinions of some (young) people, as regards this War on terror and religious politics are starting to change. Now, to say there are people here on the level of Shehzad Tanweer or Jacksy Fiaz, willing to commit themselves to fanaticism is blatant exaggeration. Today, in Ireland, however, it is reasonably easy to find a young Muslim boy or man who has very disappointing ideas of Islam in terms of violent activism, and sympathises with the actions of the militant mujahideen. Now that is a new thing, and you cant tell me it was always here. It has come from something. What?

Today, I re-read the transcripts of videotapes from Khan and Tanweer. Both of them refer to the violent actions of the USA abroad. Sidique Khan:

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.

I for one find the transcripts haunting and frightening. I think that the suicide bombers were very confused and in many ways, child-like in their philosophy, stupid.
But we have to wake up to the fact, that it was not religion that stirred in them to cause such atrocities, nor was it skin colour nor was it their parents' nationalities. It was a very deep anger. That anger is not going to be resolved by bombing the life out of a city or bringing down a regime, never. It won't be alleviated by blasting hezbollah to Hell, and it won't go away with al-Qaeda.
Bombing a country for the acts of individual terrorists has been compared to bombing a website, and it is a suitable comparison. Terrorism goes far deeper than borders and towns and organisations, it's door-to-door. It is the ghost of a deeper problem in a society, almost a reflection. Why has it sprung up all of a sudden? Where were the militant mujahideen in 1970 when these boys' parents were first come to the West? Why is it that classic "Islamic" terrorism is only being seen in the US and the UK? These are very serious questions and I feel that the solutions to the current rise in terrorism lie somewhere therein.

Finally, while I think that recent American foreign policy has awoken a dead volcano with regard to religious militants, these people are still responsible for their own actions and it is they themselves who have chosen to act as such. The USA is not responsible for causing 7-7; OR 9-11. This was the work of extremists acting alone and unjustified.
However, when it comes to assessing the most effective way of annhilating extremism, we need some clear thinking. You need a solution that doesnt alienate your average 16 year old Muslim in Bradford or London or Birmingham, or Dublin. That is what has gotten us into this mess as it is.

Sorry that was such a long posting. But I think it is pointless trying to localise this issue to any city, state or militant group. It is much more complicated than that.

Mike...

Good day to get rid of bad news was the term used....on Sept 11.
Wonder what else happened today.

How many innocent people did the Israeli's Slaughter?
What crazy new legislation has W introduced?
How many trips in the Air Ambulance did Mary Harney make to the off licence while pushing mammy up the queue?

Only time will tell

nuttz

*mono* wrote:

Good day to get rid of bad news was the term used....on Sept 11.
Wonder what else happened today.

How many innocent people did the Israeli's Slaughter?
What crazy new legislation has W introduced?
How many trips in the Air Ambulance did Mary harney make to the office licence while pushing mammy up the queue?

Only time will tell

Although you may be trying to contribute to the discussion, it seems you are trolling by your many questions and little opinion.

Mike...

nuttz wrote:

Although you may be trying to contribute to the discussion, it seems you are trolling by your many questions and little opinion.

Nuttz,

I really think today is about taking the heat off the Israeli's so they can continue to attack innocent people.

Hobbes

nuttz wrote:

Although you may be trying to contribute to the discussion, it seems you are trolling by your many questions and little opinion.

Actually he has a point, and even British PM got fired for trying to do this during 9/11.

Here is what I think...

Two AQ holded up in their cave (yay sterotypes).
AQ1: Hey I bet you I can get those evil american dogs to take off thier shoes getting onto plane.
AQ2: I Don't believe. Ok I bet you 2 goats.
... time passes after shoe bomber incident ...
AQ1: Ok I bet you I can make so they can't bring any hand luggage onto the plane.
AQ2: Oooh thats too easy, no goats for you!
AQ1: Ok then how about make them eat thier own babies food before getting onto the plane.
AQ2: Heh! Ok 2 goats again it is!

Can't wait for the next installement. Probably no clothes at all.

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

There is such an obsession with the idea of 'whudunnit'. We don't need an inquiry or a trial or an American led invasion to teach us that the people 'whudunnit' are sparse, diffuse individuals, just like Mohammad Sidique Khan and the other London bombers. Finger pointing at al-Queda, or Hezbollah, or attempting to bring down Ahmedinijad is missing the point, and is a silly attempt at localising the problem to one or a few quarters.

Exactly. There's no single boogyman organisation out there. That thinking went out with the fall of the berlin wall.

The new ideology of extremism is everywhere. Surely the London bombings taught us that. I've always argued that Islam in Ireland is as peaceful as Catholicism, and it is. But I feel that opinions of some (young) people, as regards this War on terror and religious politics are starting to change.

That's the worry and not too surprising either. Lines are being drawn.

Today, in Ireland, however, it is reasonably easy to find a young Muslim boy or man who has very disappointing ideas of Islam in terms of violent activism,

Again I wouldn't be too surprised

Now that is a new thing, and you cant tell me it was always here.

As I said in my last post, you will always get the usual moaning from any group that is even slightly outside the mainstream of any society. I knew Muslims back in the 80's and you would hear some of that even then. The west is decadent etc, but it was a hell of a lot less, it was from fewer quarters and it was more religiously based and not as politicised(some even came here because their parents thought of Ireland as a more "religious" European country, which it was in many ways). The world wide ummah concept seemed at least to me much less.

Where were the militant mujahideen in 1970 when these boys' parents were first come to the West?

True. Most Arabic terrorist/freedom fighter(delete as applicable) in 1970 were actually quite left wing and secular. They had connections in Europe at least with the far left wing groups. For me the islamist angle only really came to the fore with the deposing of the Shah in Iran. Afghanistan really kicked it off. Islam became the rallying point for many reasons.

Why is it that classic "Islamic" terrorism is only being seen in the US and the UK?

This I'm not too sure of. There are many examples of "islamist" terrorists beyond those two places. The far east and Africa spring readily. The perception of the US "empire" has certainly galvanised the islamists worldwide so I get your point.

However, when it comes to assessing the most effective way of annhilating extremism, we need some clear thinking. You need a solution that doesnt alienate your average 16 year old Muslim in Bradford or London or Birmingham, or Dublin. That is what has gotten us into this mess as it is.

True and as I said, we need to engage the nutjobs too(though addressing them as same may not be helpful )

growler

InFront wrote:

Why is it that classic "Islamic" terrorism is only being seen in the US and the UK? .

or Spain

or Bali

or Egypt

or Morocco

or Kenya

or Chechnya

or Russia

and the planned attack on Germany, Canada etc.


You seem to think the west is to blame for radicalising these idiots, I blame the idiots and the culture that allows them, even encourages them to blow themselves up in the name of god.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

Actually he has a point,

Not too far off at all.

Here is what I think.../..
AQ2: Heh! Ok 2 goats again it is!

metrovelvet wrote:

Wait - Are they thinking this is Al Q or Hezbollah?

No offence, but if you're even asking this question you really need to get informed about this stuff.

I didnt ask you for your theories. I want to know who the officials are pointing to, not who arbitrary teen age conspiracy theorists think it is.

Re read Flukeys previous post. The line "Al Q'aida doesn't exist as such" is the pertinent bit. Read more background.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Can't wait for the next installement. Probably no clothes at all.

You've got me thinking there Hobbes.I was behind Samantha mumba recently boarding an ei flight to heathrow...