'Plot to blow up planes' foiled

Heinrich

metrovelvet wrote:

And what did you do about it to stop it in your 30 years of conflict?

Read the history books.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

No. I didnt say they were blaming Hezbollah... I said there was some talk of it being Hezbollah.

and I said I have seen absolutly nothing to that effect which is why I asked you to point us to it so we could see for ourselves.

People in Ireland have not dealt with it on the same scale. I can learn alot from the Irish attitudes? lol. Thanks Hobbes. I needed a laugh today.

I would recommend doing a bit of research before engaging mouth again. You can read about the history of Irish troubles here (best and least biased)

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/

metrovelvet wrote:

And what did you do about it to stop it in your 30 years of conflict?

Well after you read the document you will find any instance where civil liberties where damaged it actually caused the issues to blow up in the UKs faces. Things like picking up people for "being Irish" and torturing them/holding them without rights, beating up and shooting people demonstrating and so on.

IRA before this mess while still a terrorist organisation had very little if any support from Irish people. After civil rights abuses they got more support then they should have.

Resolving those civil rights abuses rather then combatting the IRA head on helped bring about a somewhat peaceful solution. Is terrorism gone in Ireland? No but it is now at a level that can be dealt with and has the support of the civilians to combat this terrorism.

I strongly suggest you read the link as there are a large number of parallels to what is going on in the US/Middle East. Based on that your looking at well over 30 years of continued violence.

fly_agaric

Sovtek wrote:

So we are supposed to just accept that the "foiled plot" was just that and not keep an open mind. It's all like the government(s) told us:

Sovtek, some peoples minds' are so open the flies have gotten in and laid eggs. Poor maggots won't find anything too good eat inside though!

Its rather telling that some of the people who are crying "don't believe what the govt. tells you", "there's nothing to be afraid of really, its all hysteria whipped up to control us" etc have been known to post conspiracy drivel elsewhere about Sept. 11th.

Much as I dislike Blair and what's he's done this past few years, absent further info, I'd rather listen to the UK govt. and police than a bunch of raving tinfoil hatters.

At present, the UK govt. and police say there was a big plot, and the increase in security/disruptions caused are regrettable but necessary.

BTW - Richard Reid did actually try to blow up a plane in the air and there was a ricin plot, and Zacharias did wish he was a big-shot Islamic Terrorist raining destruction on the old EvilWest. You should be on your knees thanking God for incompetence and not saying there is nothing to fear when disasters are averted by it.

[edited for clarity and sense]

The_Scary_Man

Trode wrote:

Wait, I did what? Sovtek said that believing the governments version of events was not open-minded, so I asked if not believing them was. I then asked which version he thought more likely, given that, in the absence of proof either way, it seems logical to go with the least unlikely one. If the evidence changes which one that is, than it's all to the good. I didn't even give my clear and succint version of the truth. I'm not denying anyone their right to scepticism.

Ok I take your point that you were trying to demonstrate the fact that logic would point to the simplest answer but you put;

Government mounts huge scam operation, shutting down airports and costing millions to themselves and business, managing to keep the fact that it's all a lie secret, just to provoke some vague fear in their citizens and make themselves less popular

against;

Police stop crime

Sovtek in his previous posts didn't seem to me to be advocating either of these view points but rather asking people to keep an open mind. Asking people to be a little more discerning before swallowing what the government dishes out to us.

Well, the British government never claimed that Menenzes was a suicide bomber(some police officers made and incorrect snap decision based on incompetent surveillance, but he was never accused of anything) or that Richard Reid was effective(although exploding shoes puts him in the dangerous category). I don't think they've actually commented on Moussaoui 's level of involvement one way or the other, though they did hand over their information on him to the Americans after Sept 11, that was on request. They didn't categorically say that 7/7 wasn't connected to Iraq, Blair said Iraq was no excuse for terrorism, which implies they acknowledge some level of causality.Finally, I doubt they said the 'kill us and convert us' thing. I'm open to correction here(as with all of the above statements), but in general British statements on these things tend to be more sensitive to ordinary Muslims, and talk of inclusion and uniting against terror rather than Bush's 'Us or Them' rhteoric.

Everything you say here is true. The British govt has taken a back seat in making the kind of accusations and remarks that seem to come all too easily to US politicians. I would say however that press releases are not the governments only mode of disseminating information and while freedom of the press from government intrusion is not as much an issue on this side of the pond as it is in America a belief that the press here is free from state manipulation wouldn't serve us too well. In truth the media are more to blame for these kinds of stories than the UK government but to think that they don't influence these stories and how they are reported would be naive. Sovtek also refers to governments not the british govt making these statements.

I'm sorry if I came over antagonistic, I just get wound up with posts that question the validity of one posters opinion without offering some points of their own to back up their criticism.

The fact of the matter is that the art of propaganda has come a long way since the WWII poster campaigns, its a lot more insidious now. It's spread through third party PR firms, lazy journalists, disingenuous news items or through the testimony of "experts" through the media. We are bombarded with it every day and if we don't try to seperate the meaningful from the meaningless then we lose any control we have over the government

tonyj

The terrorist attacks or threats we have seen in recent years have been Islamic extremists targetting public transportation (planes, trains, busses) for maximum civilian casualties.

Therefore a short-term ban on Muslims using public transport seems a logical option.

The Muslim community would feel discriminated against, perhaps - but this is a small price to pay if it means the rest of us can have our freedom and rights restored.

A travel ban would also have the effect of encouraging Muslims to root-out the extremists from their communities. How can 24 Muslims in the UK have plotted such a big attack without others in their community at least having some suspicion of what was happening?

Hobbes

fly_agaric wrote:

Its rather telling that some of the people who are crying "don't believe what the govt. tells you", "there's nothing to be afraid of really, its all hysteria whipped up to control us" etc have been known to post conspiracy drivel elsewhere about Sept. 11th.

Its not so much that. Lets look at previous cases.
- Lied on Iraq war.
- Innocent man shot multiple times at point blank range. Police let off.
- Two guys detained (one shot) are found innocent. House destroyed. Police let off.

Not a good track record. Now we have a group of people who where detained with not enough evidence to convict them and no proof there was an attack planned for yesterday (all reports I have seen where for the weekend).

Are they doing thier job? Of course. Over-reacting. Absolutly.

Once your changing your lifestyle to such an extent then the terrorists win.

I mean the level of craziness for example. If you buy a certain amount of peaches in a supermarket you will be flagged as a terrorist. Yet there is nothing to say buying the same amount over a week and not being flagged.

Therefore a short-term ban on Muslims using public transport seems a logical option.

Maybe a better solution would be to move them all to one town/city in England so that they can all be together nice and fine. Or prehaps how about have them wear badges so we can spot the Muslims easier on public transport?

:rolleyes:

The_Scary_Man

tonyj wrote:

The terrorist attacks or threats we have seen in recent years have been Islamic extremists targetting public transportation (planes, trains, busses) for maximum civilian casualties.

Therefore a short-term ban on Muslims using public transport seems a logical option.

The Muslim community would feel discriminated against, perhaps - but this is a small price to pay if it means the rest of us can have our freedom and rights restored.

A travel ban would also have the effect of encouraging Muslims to root-out the extremists from their communities. How can 24 Muslims in the UK have plotted such a big attack without others in their community at least having some suspicion of what was happening?

How can you advocate this kind of behaviour? If the IRA were still involved in a bombing campaign in the UK would you advocate segregation of Irish people then?

The fact that people are putting these kinds of ideas froward in this day and age is testament to the strength of the US/UK propaganda machine all on its own. If they spent half as much time and money propogating the ideals of inclusion and equality the world wouldn't be as messed up as it is today.

RedPlanet

tonyj wrote:

The terrorist attacks or threats we have seen in recent years have been Islamic extremists targetting public transportation (planes, trains, busses) for maximum civilian casualties.

Therefore a short-term ban on Muslims using public transport seems a logical option.

The Muslim community would feel discriminated against, perhaps - but this is a small price to pay if it means the rest of us can have our freedom and rights restored.

A travel ban would also have the effect of encouraging Muslims to root-out the extremists from their communities. How can 24 Muslims in the UK have plotted such a big attack without others in their community at least having some suspicion of what was happening?

The British attempted community punishment in this country more than once. It always failed miserably.
For one, it made the irish cling even more to Catholicism and again in 1972 it drove folks into the ranks of the IRA.
Think again.

Schuhart

RedPlanet wrote:

According to PM's Official Spokesman at a Press Briefing on July 12th, "it was a fact that terrorism of the kind that we had seen in London . . . was a factor before the Iraq war. Therefore it was naive frankly to believe that you could say that this kind of terrorism was due to the Iraq war . . . Therfore to put it down to the Iraq was misplaced." Fast forward a couple of weeks and Blair is now denying that he denied that Iraq had any influence on the bombings!

Clearly this is just spin, aimed at countering an obvious line of criticism.

However, there an inadvertent element of truth in what they are saying. To see this as a response to Iraq is misplaced. The motivation for UK born Muslims - at least one of which seems to have been a convert - to plot a terrorist attack has more to do with things happening in their own lives. I'm not clear in my own mind where that leads us. But I do feel its where the exploration has to start.

Trode

RedPlanet wrote:

You may (or may not) find this interesting:
In the House of Parliament days after the attack he (Tony Blair) had rejected any link between foreign policy and the threat of terrorism, stating that this was "a form of terrorism aimed at our way of life, not at any particular Government or policy." According to PM's Official Spokesman at a Press Briefing on July 12th, "it was a fact that terrorism of the kind that we had seen in London . . . was a factor before the Iraq war. Therefore it was naive frankly to believe that you could say that this kind of terrorism was due to the Iraq war . . . Therfore to put it down to the Iraq was misplaced." Fast forward a couple of weeks and Blair is now denying that he denied that Iraq had any influence on the bombings!

from: http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchism/writers/anarcho/war/london/rewrite.html

Didn't know that, thanks. Love the way he takes a logical point to it's utterly illogical conclusion. From 'terrorism existed before Iraq' (fine) to 'therefore this attack was not due solely to Iraq(probably true) to 'Iraq has nothing to do with it' (WHOA NELLY!).

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

and I said I have seen absolutly nothing to that effect which is why I asked you to point us to it so we could see for ourselves.



I would recommend doing a bit of research before engaging mouth again. You can read about the history of Irish troubles here (best and least biased)

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/



Well after you read the document you will find any instance where civil liberties where damaged it actually caused the issues to blow up in the UKs faces. Things like picking up people for "being Irish" and torturing them/holding them without rights, beating up and shooting people demonstrating and so on.

IRA before this mess while still a terrorist organisation had very little if any support from Irish people. After civil rights abuses they got more support then they should have.

Resolving those civil rights abuses rather then combatting the IRA head on helped bring about a somewhat peaceful solution. Is terrorism gone in Ireland? No but it is now at a level that can be dealt with and has the support of the civilians to combat this terrorism.

I strongly suggest you read the link as there are a large number of parallels to what is going on in the US/Middle East. Based on that your looking at well over 30 years of continued violence.

But wasnt that only with US intervention?

fly_agaric

Schuhart wrote:

...
Have we any picture of what's missing from the lives of young Muslims that makes them want to fill it with these experiences? I'm not confident we'll make much progress until we can answer that question.

Interesting post.

Perhaps there is something about the modern (Western)-type "You are a consumer/economic dot whose purpose is to feed the machine" lifestyle that has the potential to drive people crazy.

If they decide not to buy into it, they may go nihilist instead.
Maybe muslims in the West are experiencing it more than most by dint of their religion/culture being so much at odds with this kind of lifestyle.
And the ideology currently being given power and relevence by the US/UK's foriegn policy is out there waiting for them.

Also, the very nature of the modern world provides the potential for little groups of crazies united by common ideology to cause more havok than they might have done before.

Metrovelvet wrote:

I can learn alot from the Irish attitudes? lol. Thanks Hobbes. I needed a laugh today.

Why do you post here, on this thread, then?
Is it to educate the Irish fools who just don't have any of the wonderful insights into terrorism + how to defeat it that you have?

metrovelvet

If I get an arrogant response I will give one right back.

sovtek

metrovelvet wrote:

People in Ireland have not dealt with it on the same scale. I can learn alot from the Irish attitudes? lol. Thanks Hobbes. I needed a laugh today.

Being that the Irish have had a 30 year sustained danger of being victims, I would agree with you. They have had to deal with it on a much larger and more dangerous scale.
Incidentally you can learn alot from people in all parts of the world. It's probably why the average Joe in Ireland is far more aware of whats going on in the world than your average American.
Read my sig please.

sovtek

metrovelvet wrote:

But wasnt that only with US intervention?

Many could argue that down but even if it's true...what's your point?

Ciaran500

metrovelvet wrote:

But wasnt that only with US intervention?

Clinton came over and had some talks with party leaders in favour of the peace process. Not really US intervention.

fly_agaric

tonyj wrote:

The terrorist attacks or threats we have seen in recent years have been Islamic extremists targetting public transportation (planes, trains, busses) for maximum civilian casualties.

Therefore a short-term ban on Muslims using public transport seems a logical option.

The day it ever comes to that kind of rubbish in the US or the UK is the day all the right-wing US crap about "wars of civilisations" [seemingly to replace/augment the now old-hat/boring "war on the reds/pinkos"] has come true.

Heinrich

Will these persons who have been arrested be charged and tried?

What might the charges be and will there be proof that all were involved?

Will it end up like this?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_pub_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maguire_Seven

sovtek

fly_agaric wrote:

Sovtek, some peoples minds' are so open the flies have gotten in and laid eggs. Poor maggots won't find anything too good eat inside though!

Speaking of drivel

Its rather telling that some of the people who are crying "don't believe what the govt. tells you", "there's nothing to be afraid of really, its all hysteria whipped up to control us" etc have been known to post conspiracy drivel elsewhere about Sept. 11th.

I'm not talking about what other people are posting.

Much as I dislike Blair and what's he's done this past few years, absent further info, I'd rather listen to the UK govt. and police than a bunch of raving tinfoil hatters.

So you'd rather listen to people that have consistantly lied to you and make up your mind on what they claim rather than demand evidence before hand?

At present, the UK govt. and police say there was a big plot, and the increase in security/disruptions caused are regrettable but necessary.

They also stressed how we MUST invade Iraq...etc etc

BTW - Richard Reid did actually try to blow up a plane in the air and there was a ricin plot,

Reid couldn't even light the fuse and there was no Ricin plot.

and Zacharias did wish he was a big-shot Islamic Terrorist raining destruction on the old EvilWest.

I wish I was a violin virtuoso

You should be on your knees thanking God for incompetence and not saying there is nothing to fear when disasters are averted by it.

[edited for clarity and sense]

I thank Allah for imcompetance on Reids part...what I don't feel to comfortable about is the displayed incompetance of the people that are supposed to protect us and their inability to only catch the incompetant ones or harrass/kill innocent people

banaman

Here we go again.
There was, it is alleged by the, of course unbiased and free, British press a plot to bomb civilian air travel.
Numerous persons have been detained (terrorists we are assured, the only white one is "a convert to Islam") all of whom have been labelled Islamic terrorists.
They are innocent till proven guilty. Their religious beliefs are irrelevant and to criminalise them in such terms is racist.
No-one was caught anywhere near Heathrow with a bomb or any explosives, yet as a collective punishment on air travellers and the British people we have seen the imposition of controls that criminalise everyone.
Because of their waging of an illegal war, in Afghanistan and Iraq, by the US, and their loyal poodle the British Government, the British and American peoples find themselves the target of a fanatical minority of adherents of one of the world's major faiths.
In order to assuage their paranoia and to dampen fears at home they (the US and UK governments) are increasinlgy imposing a police state system of controls both in their own countries and even worse throughout the world. Rather than activelty seeking to support moderate and reasonable people in the countries which are producing the fanatics and their ideology.

And what does the free and sovereign government of Ireland do? Does it protest at the erosion of liberty and freedom? Does it maintain its hard won neutrality?
I think not.

One tabloid on sale this morning had emblazoned across its front page "Ireland a soft entry into Uk for terrorists".
Is there any proof to support such scaremongering?
No!
All it does is make it more likely the government and ourselves will supinely accept "temporary" draconian infringements of our rights as law-abiding and free citizens in a sovereign democratic society.
I am NOT a terrorist. I absolutely condemn the killing of civilians whether its by freedom fighters, alleged terrorists, police or by the military.
However both my grandfathers fought in the 1st and 2nd world wars to grant me certain rights as a citizen of a democratic society and I find the unquestioning acceptance of the suspension of these freedoms to be the most worrying aspect of the whole affair.

Flukey

Metrovelvet wrote:

Actually, here in NYC, people got blown to bits already when two jets crashed into two skyscrapers. It has happened, whereas being blown to bits by a meteor hasnt.

A fatal meteor strike hasn't happened? So tell us then, where are all the dinosaurs? What about that big crater in Arizona too? There is a massive one in Russia too, and many others around the planet. Right now there is a meteor shower going on. I've seen plenty in the last week. I even saw a fireball.

It is highly unlikely that any given individual will win the lottery, but it happens. If I was in New York like you, I would be worried. It is far more likely that you will be mugged or hit by a car or hit by a bit of falling masonry while passing a building site than being the victim of a terrorist attack. Gun crime in America is a far bigger threat to the average resident than terrorism, and has far higher casualties. In Ireland last year about 300 people were killed in traffic accidents out of a very small population, which is about 10% of the people of the people that died on 9/11. That is a startling figure. So don't be worried about planes overhead. Keep your eyes focussed on the ground so you can see that car coming towards you or that mugger about to attack you. They are the bigger and more likely threat to you.

Metrovelvet wrote:

People in Ireland have not dealt with it on the same scale.

Is that so? Maybe you didn't know then that during the troubles in Northern Ireland about 3000 people were killed, although people have now pointed it out to you. It wasn't all on the same day, which in fact means that there were many attacks. So in fact you are right. We have not dealt with it on the same scale, as people have said. We've dealt with it on a far higher one! Now please do be careful on the way to the library to do your research on all of these issues that you are posting about. We don't want you to be involved in a traffic accident.

metrovelvet

There's no need to get nasty. Take it easy.

Schuhart

I can’t quite figure out your post, but suspect you are going off the edge. This comment

banaman wrote:

There was, it is alleged by the, of course unbiased and free, British press a plot to bomb civilian air travel. Numerous persons have been detained (terrorists we are assured, the only white one is "a convert to Islam") all of whom have been labelled Islamic terrorists. They are innocent till proven guilty.

is reasonable, to the extent that it reminds us that no-one has been convicted of anything in this specific case. However, this comment

banaman wrote:

Because of their waging of an illegal war, in Afghanistan and Iraq, by the US, and their loyal poodle the British Government, the British and American peoples find themselves the target of a fanatical minority of adherents of one of the world's major faiths.

suggests you accept there is a substantive threat from terrorists who regard themselves as Muslims.

Can you explain whether your view is that UK authorities are fabricating this whole Islamic terror thing, or whether you feel they actually are under threat because of their involvement in Iraq et al? You seem to be saying both.

Heinrich

Schuhart wrote:

I can’t quite figure out your post, but suspect you are going off the edge. This comment is reasonable, to the extent that it reminds us that no-one has been convicted of anything in this specific case. However, this comment suggests you accept there is a substantive threat from terrorists who regard themselves as Muslims.

Can you explain whether your view is that UK authorities are fabricating this whole Islamic terror thing, or whether you feel they actually are under threat because of their involvement in Iraq et al? You seem to be saying both.

Because of their waging of an illegal war, in Afghanistan and Iraq, by the US, and their loyal poodle the British Government, the British and American peoples find themselves the target of a fanatical minority of adherents of one of the world's major faiths.

Find themselves being the operative phrase. He could also say "believe that they are..."

Schuhart

Heinrich wrote:

Find themselves being the operative phrase. He could also say "believe that they are..."

I don't agree 'find' is the same as 'believe' in this context. The poster actually seems to be saying that the US and UK populations are exposed to real threat because of their Government's actions. His further statement

Rather than activelty seeking to support moderate and reasonable people in the countries which are producing the fanatics and their ideology.

also suggests he is talking about a threat he sees as being real - i.e. that there are actually fanatics with an ideology.

The post is confused, and needs to be clarified.

Heinrich

Schuhart wrote:

I don't agree 'find' is the same as 'believe' in this context. The poster actually seems to be saying that the US and UK populations are exposed to real threat because of their Government's actions. His further statementalso suggests he is talking about a threat he sees as being real - i.e. that there are actually fanatics with an ideology.

The post is confused, and needs to be clarified.

Let's see what he has to add. I don't think it's confusing at all. Just try reading the lines as there is only blank space between them...

Flukey

metrovelvet wrote:

There's no need to get nasty. Take it easy.

I am anything but that. I am just giving you the facts and indeed I expressed concern for your welfare in relation to the biggest threats to you in New York, of which terrorism is way down if not bottom of the list. That is hardly being nasty. So as I said, keep an eye out for those cars. Look after yourself carefully.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

But wasnt that only with US intervention?

I take it you didn't read the site then? Which intevention is that then?

You do know that many believe that if the US did more to stop funding of the IRA from its citizens that less people would of died.

Saying that the US resolved the issue is not only a horrible over-simplificaton but an insult to many others that helped bring about the peace process.

metrovelvet

I have never been mugged, raped or hit by a car here. I know how to look after myself.

I have however lost people in 911. Everyone here is connected to someone who has died in that.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

I take it you didn't read the site then? Which intevention is that then?

You do know that many believe that if the US did more to stop funding of the IRA from its citizens that less people would of died. .

I would agree with that. Irish America has alot to answer for.

Hobbes wrote:

Saying that the US resolved the issue is not only a horrible over-simplificaton but an insult to many others that helped bring about the peace process.

Yes but thats not what I said.