Hip Hop Hatred

spacecoyote

As Karl is looking for more conversation based threads in here as opposed to lists i thought this was an interesting one that has recurred in conversations i've had previously on the genre!

I'm a fan of most music but my main love is Hip-Hop. What I find most irritating is that the argument I always get from average-joe-music-listener is that hip-hop music is crass, it promotes violence and objectifies women, etc, etc...Now i do realise that this is heavily down to peoples experience of the music, i.e. hearing tripe such as 50 cent or Eminem and as such they tend to write off my opinions on music due to the fact that i listen to, as my mother would put it "mother-f*cker music". What people fail to realise is that there is so much more depth to hip-hop music than whats heard in the charts. Many lesser heard-off rappers are fantastic writers and lyricists but this goes unrecognised as the commercial market is flooded with "Bling" obsessed "gansta's".

I'm sure this is experienced by anyone who has an interest in what some people regard as niche genres. Is it that easy to tar everyone & everything associated with it with the same brush?

cornbb

Its the same with many genres - people dismiss electronica as "sh*te dance music" even though there's some amazing stuff out there. I agree that most of the hip hop you see on MTV etc is tripe. I've listened to some good of the stuff, like Madlib, DJ Shadow, a few other - is that stuff even hip hop or is it just called turntablism??

Doomspell

spacecoyote wrote:

hearing tripe such as 50 cent or Eminem and as such they tend to write off my opinions on music due to the fact that i listen to, as my mother would put it "mother-f*cker music". What people fail to realise is that there is so much more depth to hip-hop music

The main problem is that some poeple are deaf to rap/hip-hop and all they hear are the words their trying to hear inorder to say this is 'unsuitable'. Also some poeple think that Eminem is full of shyte and justs talks about pointless crap, which is the complete opposite to Eminem.
Some musicians get things 'off their chest' by singing blues or rock and roll and some people use hip-hop or rap. As I said earlier some people are 'deaf' to rap/hip-hop, they just don't realise what the song is about. So therefore they jump to conclusions that the song is aload of bull. When it's actually deep and meaningful.

Karl Hungus

Well, with any genre of music, you'll have the popular crap, the congealed soup-skin on the top, to put it one way. It's nothing specific to any genre, most great music will go unrecognised in favour of the commercial garbage.

Indeed, I'll agree with cornbb about electronic music and 'That dance shoite' comparison. I listen to a fair bit of electronica, and you do get that.

One thing I don't listen to much of though is Hip-Hop, though not for a lack of hearing it. I've had a house-mate for 5 years who listened to absolutely nothing but the stuff, and while there's the odd thing that I might enjoy, there's not much there that I might love. So there's the likes of Cypress Hill, Body Count, and I've been over to friend's houses before listening to Jurassic 5, A Tribe Called Quest, not to mention some fairly cool French Hip-Hop, and of course I've been to a club in Osaka and seen some Japanese Hip-Hop live, which was great.

I also had a discussion with a pretty big Hip-Hop fan where I was asking if there were any bands who use interesting time signiatures, as the beats are practically always very simplistic 4/4 stuff. He guided me towards Blackaliscious and the song Alphebet Aerobics, which wasn't really what I was talking about, as it just increased in tempo, but it was still excellent.

I still think that Hip-Hop with more complex beats and time signiatures would be brilliant.

Anyway, that's getting a tiny bit off tangent, but while there is certainly some great stuff out there, I think there's a greater amount of **** in Rap and Hip-Hop than in other genres. Call it a signal/noise ratio, but while there's something I like in all styles of music, there's just less to like in Hip-Hop. Maybe that's just me though?

spacecoyote wrote:

Is it that easy to tar everyone & everything associated with it with the same brush?

Yep, very easy indeed. Keeping an open mind is what takes effort.

projectmayhem

not for one second would i say i'm a hip-hop/rap afficianado, but i am partial to a bit of kanye or eminem, like the street kidz from "de ballyer". i also enjoy a bit of saul williams and the roots, as well as some older stuff.

but that's not the point, the reason hip hop is hated is because while a lot of rap/hip-hop (in fact, probably most of it) is as deep and meaninful as nine inch nails or tool (using those examples as "respected" artists, as it were), it isn't hitting the charts in the same way gun-toting fools talking about making money are (50 cent i'm look at you)...

how many times is the media going to shove another kid with "a bad history" down our throats so we have to hear him talk about his crack addiction, love of guns and how he can afford more strippers now?

yes, rap's roots are deep within the crapholes of america, and that's what goes on, and as such, these kids are coming up rapping about their surroundings, but record labels are only exposing these artists (with the exception of the likes of kanye west and to a lesser extent common etc.) because it's "shocking" and hence, sells.

so, all the mass public gets to see is some beefy black guy with a gun talking about his bitches and money. if i didn't know better, i'd hate the genre too!

Makaveli

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anyway, that's getting a tiny bit off tangent, but while there is certainly some great stuff out there, I think there's a greater amount of **** in Rap and Hip-Hop than in other genres. Call it a signal/noise ratio, but while there's something I like in all styles of music, there's just less to like in Hip-Hop. Maybe that's just me though?

I'd say there's a far greater amount of crap churned out under the Dance heading than any other genre. A lot of mediocre Hip-Hop has at least one redeeming part to it. I can't say the same for what is called dance (note I'm using dance because I couldn't tell you the difference between all the different sub genres).

Karl Hungus

Makaveli wrote:

I'd say there's a far greater amount of crap churned out under the Dance heading than any other genre. A lot of mediocre Hip-Hop has at least one redeeming part to it. I can't say the same for what is called dance (note I'm using dance because I couldn't tell you the difference between all the different sub genres).

Well there's Dance, or Club music, or whatever you'd like to refer to it as, and Electronic music as a whole. I'd say 'Dance' is a sub-genre.

metrovelvet

I hear it all the time because Im in NYC. I have to say -I used to have the same criticims of it. Now I like it because we use it in dance a lot. Also I can relate more to the gritty more aggressive beats. And I hate PC so I like it for that too.

My knowledge of it is next to nil however. My favorite hip hop album is Paul's Boutique.

Its a very urban sound and Im not sure how well it relates to people who dont live in American urban centres.

Bodhidharma

I dont think rap or hip hop is something you can hear very easily unless you go out and look for it. The stuff that is on MTV is POP, pure and simple. I dislike hip hop because it places so much emphasis on money.

The fact is that the real "Rappers" sold their reputations down the line by dueting with Mariah Carey, Justin Timberlake and other embarassments. And why? MONEY.

The OP may like to say that these guys dont represent the good stuff, that may be the case but they are the face of hip hop to the casual listener and because all they do is spout s**te about bling bling and bitches, the reputation is well desreved.

Dont tell me that Jay Z, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Ice Cube, Busta Rhymes etc do not represent hip hop. They're s**t, and have sold their legacy for money. Thats why the genre has little credibility.

Dudess

Seminal hip hop track: Television - The Drug of the Nation by Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. Nearly 15 years old and its lyrics have never been so relevant.
One of my favourite bands of all time is Public Enemy. Chuck D is one of the sexiest men alive. I think what makes him particularly attractive is that its so refreshing to see an intelligent, articulate, interesting black guy being interviewed because there's so much exposure given to those tossers who just give white supremacists fodder to validate their ideologies.

Makaveli

Karl Hungus wrote:

Well there's Dance, or Club music, or whatever you'd like to refer to it as, and Electronic music as a whole. I'd say 'Dance' is a sub-genre.

I wouldn't class Dance as a sub genre, I'd class it as a genre with sub-genres within it such as House, Techno etc. Electronic is a genre in parallel which has it's own sub-genres

Bodhidharma wrote:

The fact is that the real "Rappers" sold their reputations down the line by dueting with Mariah Carey, Justin Timberlake and other embarassments. And why? MONEY.

The OP may like to say that these guys dont represent the good stuff, that may be the case but they are the face of hip hop to the casual listener and because all they do is spout s**te about bling bling and bitches, the reputation is well desreved.

Dont tell me that Jay Z, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Ice Cube, Busta Rhymes etc do not represent hip hop. They're s**t, and have sold their legacy for money. Thats why the genre has little credibility.

If they are real rappers, then who are the fake rappers?

As for the rest of your arguement, I agree to an extent. A lot of people have sold out over the years, others have come along to cash in on the newly found success of the genre and a lot of them are crap. To say the reputation of Hip-Hop is well deserved is just another case of ignorance. The same can be said for almost every genre if you were to base your entire knowledge of said genre off what MTV and its ilk broadcast.

Karl Hungus

Makaveli wrote:

I wouldn't class Dance as a sub genre, I'd class it as a genre with sub-genres within it such as House, Techno etc. Electronic is a genre in parallel which has it's own sub-genres

Fair enough so, in that case I've no high estimation for Dance or it's sub genres.

mike65

I just don't get it.

Mike.

Lust4Life

[RANT] My problem with rap music is that they "Borrow" the background music from classic bands instead of being REALLY original and writing their own music to back it up.

I'm not saying all of them do this with every single song, but those are the ones that get the most airplay in the US and it annoys me.[End Rant]

L4L

metrovelvet

Dudess wrote:

Seminal hip hop track: Television - The Drug of the Nation by Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. Nearly 15 years old and its lyrics have never been so relevant.
One of my favourite bands of all time is Public Enemy. Chuck D is one of the sexiest men alive. I think what makes him particularly attractive is that its so refreshing to see an intelligent, articulate, interesting black guy being interviewed because there's so much exposure given to those tossers who just give white supremacists fodder to validate their ideologies.

Yes Dudess. Some of the earlier hip hop, like Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, even Run DMC is so appealing.

The thing about people's objection to hip hop is that all they are listenting to are the bad words and paying no attention to what else is going on.

Quite frankly - I find hip hop easier to dance to than "dance" music. I dont know what your supposed to do with "dance" music.

pbsuxok1znja4r

I think the only rap music that has any real potency, or appeal, for me, is the 'violent' gangsta rap. I could listen to Tupac's "Hit 'Em Up" all day, but I can't listen to the laid-back shite they churn out about parties, jewellery and women. I like angry rap.
I think the absolute worst thing to happen to the genre is 50cent. He gets what, about 3 words out per minute? That's not rap. He has no rhythmical skills, mediocre lyrical skills and a weak voice. The only thing he has is a hard-man image (which invariably sells) and the torso of a bull.
It's a laugh, really. 50 couldn't make it any clearer that he's only in it for the cash and people still buy his tripe.

I like DMX. He's got a strong, coarse voice and uses it with vigor. And Lil' Jon. Isn't he supposed to have covered some Bad Brains song?

[Edit]: Oh and the signal to noise ratio is definitely worse with electronic music. Mostly because anyone with a program at home can throw together an electronic track, with little no talent necessary. (Which isn't to say there aren't many talented people making electronic music). They have automatic arpeggiators to create those trance melodies.

metrovelvet

Good point. At least it has some passion. Not like the insipid **** you hear all the time.

spacecoyote

Scouser.T you really are only scratching the surface if the range of rap you're aware of is either angry rap or rap about money or women. Yes some "angry" rap music is brilliant. I don't particularly like DMX, but i do like the fact that his anger does seem genuine and is not an attempt at being hard! As for Lil Jon, i really do find it quite painful.

L4L i can understand your criticism of sampling but that is where the genre developed from. DJs pretty much were the founders of it and as they couldn't make their own music they had to use others music. It can get out of hand. But thats what kinda goes back to my original point. You'll hear alot of sampling in the music you hear in the charts/on MTV and as a result people just pick up this perception that thats what hip-hop is all about! Groups such as The Roots are a phenomenal live act. Probably one of the best in the world. They have a full band (no DJ) so all their music is original. They have passion about their music and this comes across in their performances. Plus their video "What they do" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sv-AVpdZ8k is an absolute classic. Says it all about what people think about hip-hop!

Karl maybe check out the Roots track "Water" on the album "Phrenology" if you're looking for mixed up tempos, etc. Its a 12 minute track, fairly experimental stuff. Also I would recommended you get a listen to Cut Chemist's (DJ from Jurassic 5) new album "The Audience's Listening". Its mostly instrumentals (3/4 tracks with vocals) but is definitely hip-hop and i'd say you would enjoy it.

Tha Gopher

I like it because I can identify with it more than generic, pointless lyrics by popular bands like, lets say, The Chillis. Example: listen to the first verse of Biggie Smalls Everyday Struggle. Depression, money trouble, drinking, reminiscing about simpler carefree times, you can relate to that type of thing when you are on a downer. What do The Killers and The Chillis sing about? It just appears as a random jumble of words to me. I think the hip hop snobbery is getting a bit too heavy. I dont think that anyone is claiming that the latest crunk piece is a tad on, say, Ready to Die or Illmatic. I wish there were still albums coming out of that calibre but theyre thin on the ground. Rap music is atmospheric- in Dublin, nothing contributes to the atmosphere of a hot summer day like someone rolling past you in a car blasting out Juicy or Nuttin But a G Thang. Likewise, on a cold dark winters night hearing the echo of C.R.E.A.M or a bit of Illmatic in the distance. You just dont get that with other genres.

Yis should watch the Chris Rock stand up where he does an assesment of the intellectual content of the Lil Jon tune Get Low, and womens attitude towards it

"So Dad, where did you meet mom?"
"Well son, I was in a club and she was out on the floor singin a song about mens balls!"

Its actually suprising the groups/artists that have universal appeal. Example, alot of non hip hop heads will be quite big into their Kanye and Outkast.

Kanye is a mediocre rapper, an average to good producer and a complete and utter knobend. "George Bush doesnt care about black people" pfft, hes just pissed because Bush said that while Kanye was decent, hes never gonna fill Dres shoes


Outkast are quite possibly the cheesiest most talentless embarassing nonsense in hip hop, at least since the turn of the century (Ive been told they were relevant back in the mid 90s. I havent got broadband and am not prepared to spend a few quid on their CDs to find out tbh)

Crucifix

Speaking of Public Enemy, yesterday someone at work was telling me there's some new reality show in which women try to compete for Flava-flav's love. Society has gone mad I tells ya.

Tar.Aldarion

I like most types of music, hip hop/rap are the only genres that I can say i don't like. I hate them. Now, I have heard a lot of different stuff from them, having friends big into them, just, different strokes for different folks.
As for dance, I may only love 1 in a thousand dance songs, but I still do love them, DJ Shadow etc. I can't say that about hip hop / rap.

empirix

Hip Hop is crap full stop. Beastie boys/nwa are good though but are old school rappers. Eminem is pure b****x
As for irish hip hop don't make me laugh

spacecoyote

i think you'll find that theres a very fine line distinguishing between whether people classify DJ Shadow as a dance dj or hip-hop dj!

Empirex is kinda proving my point there too! whether they are old school or not, NWA, etc are still hip-hop (and NWA are pretty weak if you ask me anyway). Like i was saying, you're pretty much judging hip-hop on what you're hearing in the charts/on tv, which is understandable, its all you really can base it on. I just don't like the way people totally write-off a genre based on that. it doesn't really happen with all music genres. And yes, numerous artists may have "sold out" but that doesn't account for the hundreds of artists who have never done so (eg Public Enemy, KRS-One, etc, etc...). Unfortunately, as in every part of the music industry, artistic integrity can be easily bought (case in point, wait for Shadows new effort)

cornbb

scouser.tommy wrote:

anyone with a program at home can throw together an electronic track, with little no talent necessary. (Which isn't to say there aren't many talented people making electronic music). They have automatic arpeggiators to create those trance melodies.

This is true, however, this also means that electronic music is incredibly accessible. And the cream of the talent naturally rises to the top. People slag off electronic music because software is used to create it, but clever use of the software (which often involves intense, innovative and highly creative programming) can allow for some amazing, groundbreaking rhythms and other musical structures that would not be possible without using software.

Computers are musical instruments themselves, highly powerful tools which can be picked up either by someone who wants to make music with no talent or prior experience, or by talented, experienced virtuosos who can use them use them to create amazingly expressive and innovative music.

spacecoyote wrote:

i think you'll find that theres a very fine line distinguishing between whether people classify DJ Shadow as a dance dj or hip-hop dj!

I wouldn't call him either, I'd say its turntablism. Although I guess thats a technique, not a genre. DJ Shadow is class either way

Evil_Bilbo

first things first - NWA are weak? HUH?

They are (were) the angriest most hardcore crowd around - amazing rapping, amazing backing. They had Mc Ren, dr dre, evil e, ice cube - totally amazing.

the one thing about rap is that the voice should be used as another insturment - like another drum of something - a good rythmic rap has all kinds of rythm to it - not like the muck thats out these days.

give a listen to lords of the underground and the ghetto boyz early stuff - hard to find good new sh1t these days.

Lust4Life

And then there is Will Smith's Just The Two Of Us.

Brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it.

Yes, they are not all bad.

I think it is mostly the Gangstah Mentality that puts me off of them all.
But then again, if they were wearing Red Lycra Jump Suits or something from David Lee Roth's closet they'd probably get laughed off the stage singing their stuff. I can just picture it now!

L4L

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

empirix wrote:

Hip Hop is crap full stop. Beastie boys/nwa are good though but are old school rappers. Eminem is pure b****x
As for irish hip hop don't make me laugh

You're an ignorant ****.


tbh, I don't think hip/hop and dance/electronic music are even that poorly regarded in this day and age. I think it's just a phase that people go through, when they hit puberty and stop listening to whatever's on Top 40 Hits (is that show still going?), and suddenly it's all cool to listen to nothing but rock music, and hip/hop / anything made with a symthesiser, software or hardware is no longer "Real Music". It's a phase that most people grow out pretty swiftly, but the kind of people who say such things are also generally the most vocal demographic on the internet.

Dudess

spacecoyote wrote:

The Roots Phrenology

Incredible band, incredible album. I defy anyone not to be blown away by the track The Seed.

metrovelvet

Crucifix wrote:

Speaking of Public Enemy, yesterday someone at work was telling me there's some new reality show in which women try to compete for Flava-flav's love. Society has gone mad I tells ya.

Its true. No one who is a public enemy fan should watch it. Its so so sad.

metrovelvet

Dudess wrote:

Incredible band, incredible album. I defy anyone not to be blown away by the track The Seed.

Oh wow. I am blown away. Thanks Dudess and space cayote. You made my day.

Steak

Evil Bilbo, it's Eazy-E not evil e!

I'm a big fan of Hip-Hop/Rap and to be honest at times I'm afraid to admit it in front of my friends because they are all uneducated about it!

if I say I like Hip-Hop/Rap they immediately associate me with listening to Akon, Kanye West, Eminem or Busta Rhymes when in fact I don't listen to any of these!

I think the main reason why people are put off Hip-Hop/Rap is because all they see and hear is commercial shít on the radio or MTV!