Terror Attack on Ireland.

daveirl

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TempestSabre

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

So buying Eurofighters is the same as humanitarian aid?

Obvously my point was in context of the thread title. If you want to broaden the topic that wide you'll drag it way off topic.

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

But on the otherhand NORAD dropped form something like 4,500 aircraft on alert in the 1960s to twenty-something in 2001.

According to the NORAD tapes released recently and covered in Vanity Fair here, the sector with responsibility for New York on 9/11 had four aircraft at their disposal to cover an area one quarter the size of the US. Northeast Air Defence Sector (NEADS) had four of the 16 armed aircraft under NORAD's command within reach of Manhattan on that morning, despite there being several hundred unarmed fighters under various commands assigned to training details in the country.

Massive cutbacks at the close of the Cold War reduced NORAD's arsenal of fighters from some 60 battle-ready jets to just 14 across the entire country. (Under different commands, the military generally maintains several hundred unarmed fighter jets for training in the continental U.S.) Only four of NORAD's planes belong to NEADS and are thus anywhere close to Manhattan

What is interesting from the article is the time frame of events at NEADS. American 11 was commandeered at 8:14am, yet it was almost 24 minutes later before NEADs were alerted by civil ATC at Boston (8:37:52), another 7 minutes bfore the order was given to launch the two fighters stationed at Otis AFB (8:44:59). Less than two mnutes later, American 11 struck the North Tower of the WTC.

Let me explain the significance of that. An aircraft airborne from Dublin's main runway 28, and flight planned overhead Liverpool/Manchester exits Irish airspace about 8 minutes after departure. The same timing applies to an aircraft flight planned over Belfast and into Scottish airspace, and is roughly 12 minutes for aircraft fflight planned to the south east towards south Wales. It would be nigh on impossible for a hijack attempt to take place and for civil ATC to become aware of such an event within our airspace in sufficient time to launch interceptors.

Timings increase for departure further west, but the same principle applies. Taking the 9/11 time frame of American 11, within the 31 minutes it took to launch two fighters from Otis, any departure from an Irish airport would have exited our airspace to the east before our boys at Bal would even have sat in their cockpits. Westbound transatlantic traffic would still be in our airspace, but close to 15W and very close to the edge of effective radar coverage, making intercept difficult.

Of course, if we spent the couple of hundred million € on airport security, and intelligence gathering, the chances of a hijack attempt in our airspace would be slim to none. Its hard to commandeer an aircraft through a locked cabin door.

lostexpectation

mashkadov why do you say an Irish military airbase should be built at shannon?

therecklessone

daveirl wrote:

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I'll make the same point I made on the military forum in reply to that.

Finish and Swedish military planning is based on a conflict with the now-defunct Warsaw Pact. Both countres have had good reason to fear the Soviets/Russians, the fall of the Wall has done little to change that.

therecklessone

exiztone wrote:

That's what I was thinking. 22 Fighter Jets isn't going to stop people bringing liquid explosives into Dublin Airport.

Exactly. What use wold the RAF have been against the recent plot? They're due to have over 300 Eurofighters...

Some people seem to prefer the illusion of security, ah sure we must be safe aren't the lads ready to launch at a minutes notice from Baldonnel. I'd rather we beefed up security at our airports and invested funds into intelligence gathering so that we stop any possible plot before its put into action.

Diogenes

Fair play the recklessone for saying what I was thinking far more eloquently and with y'know far better facts and stuff than I have at my disposal.

The only thing that I'd add to that what's the plausibility of a terrorist group hijacking a plan leaving manchester or glasgow or liverpool or london and picking on ireland there's a wealth of far more significant targets in the UK be it Faslane, Sellafield, or er London or any UK city, or military target.

Arguments like we are in danger of a serious terrorist attack or that the current crop of bombers used Dublin airport as a dry run ( a report not circulated in anything other than the Irish editions of the UK redtops who feel the Irish are too insular to respond to an international story unless it as national ramifications) is a delusion. And frankly I'd like anyone trying to justify spending this money on an airforce instead of health or education should after a few years of this airforce is created, be forced to wander around our hospices and apologise to the those dying there with the words "Sorry you're dying love because the dialysis machine you needed was knackered, but the off chance was al qaeida was going to attack us"

More people will die due to our failing health care system than will be killed in a sept 11th attack. Lets prioritise people.

I'm proud to live in a country were we don't need our military to inflat our patriotism.

Victor

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

Ireland as a target get real people. When terrorists pick target to blow up it is for a reason. Ok take if they did blow something up here how on earth would it affect the US or UK seriously.

Um, Intel?

As for security here being lax the Air Corp do have planes that could take down a 747 or any commercial airline. They may not be the most technological advanced planes but travel at a good speed and can carry weapons.

Only if the 747 was on the ground.

Pilatus PC-9/A Max speed 593 km/h (320 kt);
Beoing 747 Max speed approx 917 km/h (507 kt);

Think about it how would terrorists benefit from striking Ireland other than peeing off a few million Paddys and creating another enemy that will most likely get involved in self defence.

Some people wouldn't care.

InFront

Victor wrote:

Um, Intel?

I think his question is still valid, how on earth would that effect the US/ UK seriously?
It's not as though you have to leave Asia to bomb Intel...

This thread is beginning to sound like a conspiracy theory.

darkman2

Well, well, well speak of the devil:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4788407.stm

metrovelvet

Oh .... I can't see what your all worried about since you know.... "Ireland has been dealing with terrorism for decades.:rolleyes: "

lostexpectation

Jim cusack today said on the front of the sindo that boutrab was the originater of this weeks plot :rolleyes:


Ireland 'a fundamentalist haven' the cops and politicians say otherwise!

he never heard of catholic terrorists?, hmm guess cod it didn't need to said like that, you knew what religion the IRA were and what religion the UVF were.

InFront

Came across a thread about that article ^^ in humanities earlier.

I must admit, although I like and respect this cleric a lot, I was a bit surprised by his use of the word 'rife' when referring to extremism in Ireland. I was also a bit surprised by the reference to restricting foreign travel to us.

Having said that, there is a great lot of thought to be gained from his words on the matter, and it's great to see men of his importance being so forward in recognising the necessity of guiding young Muslims responsibly.

I think that individuals should try to befriend and engage with Muslims and then decide themselves how much extremism exists within their communities.

New_Departure06

With such a large Irish-American electorate and number of politicians in Congress, it shouldn't be beyond us to get the US to sell us what we need in this regard.

Mad Finn

darkman2 wrote:

No cutbacks would be nessacary for an injection of cash for the Air Corps and intelligence services. We really do have to grow up and take reponsibility as a society for our own security.

According to the BBC the cost to the British taxpayer of the 232 Eurofighters it intends to buy will be £15.9bn. So if we were to buy 22 as somebody suggested that would cost us:€2.24bn.

That would be just to acquire the planes. Then there would be all the logistics to put in place, training, support hangars etc etc


you could do a lot with €2.24bn

TempestSabre

Pay for decentralisation assuming it doesn't cost any more than that.

Victor

lostexpectation wrote:

Jim cusack today said on the front of the sindo that boutrab was the originater of this weeks plot

It was his arrest and the search of his house that led to the current arrests.

darkman2

The one thing that comes across on this thread is that ppl generally feel 'ah sure it will never happen to us'. Were not thinking proactively but rather reactively and this goes through most aspects of Irish life. Is it going to take a bomb on a dart or a bus to wake us up?. Why dont we have adequate intelligence gathering capibility? Why dont we have adequate defensive capibility? I think alot of ppl in this country need to crawl out of the rock they are living under and look at the real world. Their are Islamic extremists all over Europe that are bent on the destruction of the West. I dont think they differentiate between small or big states. Ask the ppl of Bali. We are at risk whether we want to believe it or not and our size or location is not going to stop a terrorist who would rightly view us as the weakest of weak targets. I fear we will be caught dramatically off guard at some stage in the future and I will be one of those saying 'I told you so' whilst the very ppl here saying we dont need to up our act will be calling for the governments head. We have to take responsibility for our own security. That is the first, most basic task of a goverment is to secure the safety of its citizens. We havnt even got this right.

HelterSkelter

darkman2 wrote:

where is the first place you would choose to hijack a plane?? The UK - no. The US - no. The Republic - yes - why? Because its the easiest option. Someone mentioned that you could probrably get something that could be used as a weapon on an aircraft here and no-one would blink an eyelid. Security here is definatley the most lax in Europe.

Erm, how did you come to this conclusion? From my experience the security screening is a lot better in Dublin than Heathrow (until the increased security last week, that is). I fly Dublin to Heathrow all the time and the security people at Heathrow are more interested in having a chat with one another. My hand luggage has been searched twice at Dublin and never in Heathrow.

Anyway, if you really want to get a weapon on a plane it is possible from any airport in the world. Once you know someone working airside they could easily leave a weapon somewhere (e.g. hidden in a toilet) for you to collect before you board.

Sparks

darkman2 wrote:

The one thing that comes across on this thread is that ppl generally feel 'ah sure it will never happen to us'. Were not thinking proactively but rather reactively and this goes through most aspects of Irish life. Is it going to take a bomb on a dart or a bus to wake us up?

Haven't lived here long, have you?

Why dont we have adequate defensive capibility?

We have more than an adaquate defensive capability, given the realistic threats we face.
ie. Internal terrorist groups like the IRA and it's factions.

I think alot of ppl in this country need to crawl out of the rock they are living under and look at the real world. Their are Islamic extremists all over Europe that are bent on the destruction of the West.

Uh-huh. Read much Irish history?

I fear we will be caught dramatically off guard at some stage in the future and I will be one of those saying 'I told you so'

Where will you be when the next few hundred people die on our roads because we don't have enough gardai to enforce traffic laws or because we didn't have enough to spend on infrastructure upgrades? Where will you be when the next few thousand die in our healthcare system? Where will you be when our economy takes a nosedive because the cut in spending on primary and secondary education finally caught up with us? Where will you be when we don't have an air ambulance or our own SAR service because we bought shiny new toys for the boys instead of stuff we need?

We have to take responsibility for our own security. That is the first, most basic task of a goverment is to secure the safety of its citizens. We havnt even got this right.

Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm going to go with food, water, shelter, domestic law and order, jobs, education, healthcare, and about a dozen others before I get to the armed forces as a priority thanks.

Tchocky

I still don't get how 22 Eurofighters would stop a hi-jacking.

TempestSabre

I've no idea either. Can a F22 target the dart?

darkman2

Sparks wrote:

Haven't lived here long, have you?


We have more than an adaquate defensive capability, given the realistic threats we face.
ie. Internal terrorist groups like the IRA and it's factions.


Uh-huh. Read much Irish history?


Where will you be when the next few hundred people die on our roads because we don't have enough gardai to enforce traffic laws or because we didn't have enough to spend on infrastructure upgrades? Where will you be when the next few thousand die in our healthcare system? Where will you be when our economy takes a nosedive because the cut in spending on primary and secondary education finally caught up with us? Where will you be when we don't have an air ambulance or our own SAR service because we bought shiny new toys for the boys instead of stuff we need?


Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm going to go with food, water, shelter, domestic law and order, jobs, education, healthcare, and about a dozen others before I get to the armed forces as a priority thanks.

Such naievity:rolleyes:

I tell you what: Lets do nothing, yeah.

Sparks

darkman2 wrote:

I tell you what: Lets do nothing, yeah.

No, let's spend less than a thousandth of what you propose on things like lockable cabin doors and better wages for airport security personnel. Then lets spend the remainder of what you propose to spend on things like education, housing, infrastructure, healthcare, and other things that actually matter and need the money. Lets do that, yeah.

HelterSkelter

Every year approx 400 people die and 10,000 are injured on our roads. How many people are killed every year in terrorist attacks? About 50 last year in the UK? As pervious posters said there are many other areas that need investment ahead of the military and investing money in these areas would save many more lives.

darkman2

Sparks wrote:

No, let's spend less than a thousandth of what you propose on things like lockable cabin doors and better wages for airport security personnel. Then lets spend the remainder of what you propose to spend on things like education, housing, infrastructure, healthcare, and other things that actually matter and need the money. Lets do that, yeah.

No No No thats not what I said at all.:eek: I want better intelligence gathering capibilities and the setting up of a new intelligence agency seperate from the gardai. Cockpit doors are already locked in flight. I want less money spent on health and education not more until the unions are sorted out. I want to see an agency with responsibility for co-ordinating a reponse to a national emergency which we dont even have at present.

MeatProduct

If we want to live in fear then go right ahead and spend on defense. There is very little difference between seeing the need to defend and the need to attack, both come from fear. It's better to go to the source of that fear rathar than promote it.

Money would be far better spent on the looming energy crisis and healthcare. Money on healthcare would be better spent on informing the public on what they are eating rather than dealing with the results of what people eat. Could all be so cheap!



Nick

therecklessone

darkman2 wrote:

The one thing that comes across on this thread is that ppl generally feel 'ah sure it will never happen to us'.

Funny, what comes across to me is that a lot of people prefer the illusion of security than actual security. A squadron of Eurofighters won't stop your hypothetical bomb on the DART, no more than the RAF's squadrons of Tornados, Jaguars and Hawks stopped the bombing of London tubes/busses, nor did the strongest military in the world stop the hijacking of four passenger airliners on 9/11.

Had the US spent a fraction of its defence budget on airport security (you know, like paying their staff a decent wage and training them adequately) they could have avoided 9/11. Instead, they treated the airliner like a bus with the obvious consequences.

Put away your flight sim for a minute and think...what could our defence forces buy with the money we'd have to invest in modern air defence capability? Fishery patrol aircraft, UAVs for cash escorts and anti-terror surveillance, extra naval service vessels to patrol our waters against drug smugglers. Hell, we might even be able to afford a few extra helicopters to transport the ARW to incidents.

The hundreds of millions spent on expensive airborne interceptors will mean less money for intelligence gathering, airport security and a 101 other things.

meepins

Maskhadov wrote:

Its high time we went and bought 22 Eurofighters and invest in a proper military base in Shannon

Wake the f**k up , who do you think is behind the scare mongering and propaganda that pervades the media.Buying in exactly as planned with this garbage.

darkman2 wrote:

Their are Islamic extremists all over Europe that are bent on the destruction of the West. I dont think they differentiate between small or big states

Brainwashed.

Diogenes

darkman2 wrote:

No No No thats not what I said at all.:eek: I want better intelligence gathering capibilities and the setting up of a new intelligence agency seperate from the gardai.

Why seperate from the Gardai?

From where would you gather the staff for this agency?

Cockpit doors are already locked in flight.

Yeah but they could be more secure, they're not.

I want less money spent on health and education not more until the unions are sorted out.

I'm sorry OT but exactly what do you define as "sorted out"?

I want to see an agency with responsibility for co-ordinating a reponse to a national emergency which we dont even have at present.

So basically you want to divert resources from health and education for an FBI/Thunderbirds type team, without telling us what ranks these people will be drawn from. And will apparently sit idly by until there's "TEH NATIONUL EM3RGENZ"

Also Darkman you started by saying you wanted an improved security service and an airforce, you seem now to argue solely for an improved security service, so have you withdrawn your support for the airforce? Its a different debate if you just want improved intelligence resources, rather than improved intelligence resources and an airforce.