Terror Attack on Ireland.

Sparks

darkman2 wrote:

I want better intelligence gathering capibilities and the setting up of a new intelligence agency seperate from the gardai.

So you want an intelligence agency which answers to whom exactly? With what mandate? With what oversight? With what powers and funding?

Cockpit doors are already locked in flight.

Indeed, and if 2.5mm MDF was a suitable material for a secured door, then we'd be sorted...

I want less money spent on health and education not more until the unions are sorted out.

Ah, take them outside and give them a good thrashing, eh, what old bean?
Do me a favour. Go and meet someone who earns less than the "average industrial wage" and talk to them about making ends meet. And then go rag on the unions. Or go watch a member of your family die in the Irish healthcare system knowing that in the US you'd be able to take several malpractise suits against everyone from the local GP for fluffing the initial diagnosis through the A&E through to long-term care, and that even then it wouldn't help because malpractise suits don't bring back people who die unnecessarily early. While you're watching that, watch how the nurses on the ground do their job and see just what that job entails. And then tell me you'd like to cut their pay.

I want to see an agency with responsibility for co-ordinating a reponse to a national emergency which we dont even have at present.

Yes, we need FEMA to help us distribute them iodine tablets in case of, well, er... heavy snowfall? Unexpected wind? Er....
No, seriously. What kind of national emergency would qualify? Sellafield exploding? Yeah, an Irish FEMA would help there. We could, er, well, actually it's in the UK's jurisdiction, so we'd have no access to the problem area, and we'd pretty much be limited to distributing iodine and broadcasting "don't drink the water and stay indoors for a while" instructions...

Mick86

luckat wrote:

Gimme a break. The people attacking Britain and America are attacking countries that are causing grief to them and theirs. Ireland scarcely falls into the same category!

The people arrested last week were almost all British citizens.

Generic_Dave

TempestSabre wrote:

I've no idea either. Can a F22 target the dart?

Legend. Absolute legend. Kudos dude.

Generic_Dave

This is kind of off topic, but as the thread seems to have veered more into security than to Eurofighters I feel it's worth throwing in. I was in New York in '04 when the Republician party convention came to town (shamelessly feeding off the carnage of 9/11 or just for the hell) and for at leat two weeks around the convention I saw National Guard, not soldiers, weekend warriors, mostlu younger than I was standing on Train platforms, street corners and pretty much everywhere with loaded automatic weapons M-16s and Uzi-alikes. Now I'm not saying that anyone has promoted this kind of reaction on this thread, but I'm just thinking of the illusion of security posts and, for my part, I've never felt less safe and secure than I did on those subway platforms at 6am, drinking my coffee standing beside a guy with a loaded automatic who couldn't shave.

I think this assumption that more weapons means more security is a complete fallacy. Guns don't make people safe.

BendiBus

darkman2 wrote:

...and the setting up of a new intelligence agency seperate from the gardai.

Why? Besides the army has it's own intelligence section with considerable Middle East experience.

Dublin airport security is pretty good. Most British airports don't come close. British Sunday red-tops have an almost weekly report of how to get dangerous items past security. Hear about the mobile ringing on the LHR-JFK flight causing a return to Heathrow? This in the middle of a 'critical' security situation.

Still don't know what 22 Eurofighters would do to help us. Nothing but a willy waving exercise.

I think more Gardai is a much better idea.

And decentralisation. Harder to hit a spread out target

Sparks

Mick86 wrote:

The people arrested last week were almost all British citizens.

And had been under intense surveillance for months by the british police.
Super-spy fantasy departments not needed, Eurofighters not needed, in fact the threat never really existed at the level it was reported;

However, US media campaign coordination was needed, so we see the US pressuring the UK into arrests the UK felt were premature in order that the arrests could be announced just after the Lieberman-Lamont decision in the Connecticut primaries to enable the GOP to attack Lamont as being "soft on terror".

What was that about taking security seriously again?

democrates

darkman2 wrote:

I want less money spent on health and education not more until the unions are sorted out.

No ailing relations or special needs offspring then. Life experience may alter your perspective. Be careful about sacrificing innocents to get at what you perceive to be your enemy, and be honest, in this unions vs ordinary decent capitalists vision of yours, where does your bank account situate you?

Maskhadov

lostexpectation wrote:

mashkadov why do you say an Irish military airbase should be built at shannon?

It would help pay for the financing of the aircraft deal. Baldonnel is worth a few quid. Shannon has lots of capacity and only a few minutes flight from Dublin.

Lots of militaries share airbases with civilian aircraft.

Maskhadov

meepins wrote:

Wake the f**k up , who do you think is behind the scare mongering and propaganda that pervades the media.Buying in exactly as planned with this garbage.



Brainwashed.

Mind your language. Im fully awake. Its nothing to do with scare mongering. Its just getting the nation to act in a mature and responsible manner.

What is needed is a comprehensive security solution. Simply doing nothing will do nothing to address this problem. The government is naive once again in hoping that everything will be ok.

growler

BendiBus wrote:

Why? Besides the army has it's own intelligence section with considerable Middle East experience.

Dublin airport security is pretty good. Most British airports don't come close. British Sunday red-tops have an almost weekly report of how to get dangerous items past security.

I wasn't aware that the Irish army had a current intelligence operation in the middle east, why would they ? and unless the irish army have a number of moles deep inside the al qaida hierarchy (which seems unlikely for a number of reasons) I can't see what they would achieve.

Security at Dublin is a long running joke, when i worked there it was common knowledge that their explosive detectors didn't work, in recent years it has failed many security checks , by an EU Aviation security audit and afaik by a cia check.

democrates

Maskhadov wrote:

Its nothing to do with scare mongering. Its just getting the nation to act in a mature and responsible manner.

What is needed is a comprehensive security solution. Simply doing nothing will do nothing to address this problem. The government is naive once again in hoping that everything will be ok.

'This problem'. Care to evidence, not a repitition of security measures that aren't as extreme as you want, but what is the threat to Ireland for which said security measures are required?

DublinWriter

growler wrote:

I wasn't aware that the Irish army had a current intelligence operation in the middle east

Not at the moment, but the Irish Army do have an intelligence wing.

growler wrote:

Security at Dublin is a long running joke, when i worked there it was common knowledge that their explosive detectors didn't work, in recent years it has failed many security checks , by an EU Aviation security audit and afaik by a cia check.

I agree, but the check was done by a recent EU audit - I'd doubt the CIA really want to rock the boat in terms of the indirect support they receive from Shannon.

For all the talk by people here of the Air Corps investing in F16's etc, it's basically just an extension of the 'dumb-ass' route the US have been taking.

In intelligence circles it's called the 'guns, guards and gates' approach to investing in national security. A model which has failed the US time and time again and will also fail Ireland.

What's needed is a joined up approach to intelligence in this country, something proactive rather than reactive.

I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. My nightmare scenario is 'Corporal' O'Dea handringing on 'Questions and Answers' about some lune coming into the departures hall of Dublin Airport and basically detonating a backpack device.

As a kid in the 70's I remember the Airport police scanning everyone's baggage on entry to the airport itself.

As it is with everything in this country, it takes a major outrage for action to be taken, a couple of public protests, then everything is forgotten about again a couple of weeks later.

Sparks

My nightmare scenario is 'Corporal' O'Dea handringing on 'Questions and Answers' about some lune coming into the departures hall of Dublin Airport and basically detonating a backpack device.

Why would O'Dea be responsible for the Gardai?

DublinWriter

Sparks wrote:

Why would O'Dea be responsible for the Gardai?

Exactly. Lots of potential in the current two party coilition for finger pointing between the minister for defence and the minsiter for justice when things go badly wrong.

hmmm

I think this has parallels to computer security. You don't want to be seen as weaker or an easier target than others, you ideally want to be seen as too difficult and akward a target. You also don't want to be the very very best as it will cost you a fortune, and also invite attacks from those who want to prove themselves.

If we are being considered the "weak link" we have a problem. Why do people assume if say an Irish plane was hijacked it would only be crashed in Ireland? Just as easy to hijack a plane and slam it into Sellafield.

We need to be seen to be strong securitywise, which means both image and reality. We don't need to have aircraft carriers or stealth bombers, but I do think we are under-resourced right now.

TempestSabre

hmmm wrote:

...
If we are being considered the "weak link" we have a problem. Why do people assume if say an Irish plane was hijacked it would only be crashed in Ireland? Just as easy to hijack a plane and slam it into Sellafield....

All the air defense in the world, placed in Ireland, won't stop a plane crashing in Sellafield. Besides its a bigger health risk when its operating normally. They'd probably be doing us a favour.

punchdrunk

sorry but once again i see this we need the uk to do our SAR crap again...
we've got 6 excellent coastguard sikorsky s-61n's (four active,two reserve) based at dublin,shannon,sligo and waterford covering both north and southern ireland,aircorps casa's provide top cover,sometimes RAF nimrods but thats about all really,and the two forces visit each other often,eg waterford s-61 was in cornwall to visit the RN last month...



we've not got a proper air ambulance though...

Sparks

Well. We don't have the sikorsky's, we hire their services from CHC:

Irish Coast Guard

As the sole provider of Search and Rescue helicopter services to the Irish Coast Guard, we have extensive experience in the stormy North Atlantic Sea, as well as Irish and Celtic Seas. Maintaining and operating a fleet of Sikorsky S-61N autohover helicopters at bases in Dublin, Shannon, Waterford, and Sligo in 24/7 opertions, we set the standards for safe, efficient helicopter rescue service.

Our own SAR helicopters were retired some years back following a fatal crash.

punchdrunk

indeed they are owned buy the largest helicopter company in the world,plenty of money available so there's no scrimping on equipment or training,and it means they foot the bill for replacement airframes not us,also unlike the aircorps they have enough airframes to provide 24/7 cover 365!(new contract is up next year for a five year contract,new choppers could well be a part of this deal) also they pay to have major servicing done in norway not us!

Diogenes

Maskhadov wrote:

Mind your language. Im fully awake. Its nothing to do with scare mongering. Its just getting the nation to act in a mature and responsible manner.

What is needed is a comprehensive security solution. Simply doing nothing will do nothing to address this problem. The government is naive once again in hoping that everything will be ok.

Okay fine but you've yet to prove

A) that a terrorist threat to Ireland is a real justifible threat.

That an airforce is the most effective defence againist such an alledged threat.

Finally you've ignored an abundance of evidence about the likely timing of such an attack after take off, and how any response time would be too slow.

Oh and you've yet to explain how a military base would pay for itself.

Now onto all this posturing about a security service, what are people suggesting a complex network of agents across the world, gathering evidence about potential terrorist threats to Ireland, a network of agents and phone taping? Is their any evidence that our liasing with current larger security networks isn't effective enough.

Would the people demanding an increased Irish intelligence and security organisation please define more clearly what they are arguing for, instead of making vague muttering about threats, potential terrorists, the cost of failure, etc etc etc. If you feel this is so necessary could you please elaborate exactly what you feel is lacking about our current security services, (giving examples) and what steps you'd like to see to remedy this (giving examples) Theres something of the "Daily Ireland" about this. Or "our man in Havanna". I've not decided yet.

Oh and hmmm, a plane hitting sellafield? Thats british airspace. While an accident or terrorist incident would affect us, suggesting we need to buy irish fighters to protect british airspace has an air of David protecting Golaith.

therecklessone

hmmm wrote:

Why do people assume if say an Irish plane was hijacked it would only be crashed in Ireland? Just as easy to hijack a plane and slam it into Sellafield.

Read my post on page 4 of this thread, by the time we'd realise an aircraft had been hijacked it would be out of our airspace anyway.

therecklessone

Sparks wrote:

Well. We don't have the sikorsky's, we hire their services from CHC:

CHC provide a thoroughly professional service.

Sparks

therecklessone wrote:

CHC provide a thoroughly professional service.

That's not really in dispute. It is worth noting, however, that SAR was one of the Aer Corps' fundamental roles prior to the crash that saw SAR turned over to CHC. Which would mean that funding a jet fighter squadron would prevent the resumption of SAR duties by the Aer Corps; and so a jet fighter squadron would in fact be counter to the Aer Corps' duties and mission.

TempestSabre

Why not outsource air defense aswell?

Victor

growler wrote:

I wasn't aware that the Irish army had a current intelligence operation in the middle east, why would they ?

We've had one since the 1970s, primarily because of our involvement in UNIFIL, but also other UN missions. Its mostly about colating public information, not cracking a safe in Shin Bet HQ.

therecklessone

Sparks wrote:

That's not really in dispute. It is worth noting, however, that SAR was one of the Aer Corps' fundamental roles prior to the crash that saw SAR turned over to CHC. Which would mean that funding a jet fighter squadron would prevent the resumption of SAR duties by the Aer Corps; and so a jet fighter squadron would in fact be counter to the Aer Corps' duties and mission.

Yet SAR is no longer a role of the Air Corps, roles can change. There are better arguments against the purchase of fighters than its counter to the ACs duties.

Mick86

democrates wrote:

Who in Ireland is under threat?

The US, UK and Israeli Embassies I suppose are the obvious ones. Next up would be US planes and troops in Shannon.

Personally if I were a terrorist, I'd fire a SAM at a US transport taking off or landing at Shannon. Failing that a mortar attack on the departure lounge or a plane on the runway. With a bit of planning you could be back in Tehran before the smoke clears.

punchdrunk

Sparks wrote:

That's not really in dispute. It is worth noting, however, that SAR was one of the Aer Corps' fundamental roles prior to the crash that saw SAR turned over to CHC. Which would mean that funding a jet fighter squadron would prevent the resumption of SAR duties by the Aer Corps; and so a jet fighter squadron would in fact be counter to the Aer Corps' duties and mission.

well thats not quite true either,irish helicopters were doing SAR from shannon airport since about 91/92 because the dauphin that had been there for a few years didn't have the range or endurance to cover the atlantic coast,wrong aircraft for the job,the people of the west gave out about it and they lost that posting to irish helicopters,dauphin was then moved to finner

the brass in the don were never that interested in heli's/SAR,they were always more interested in fixed wing and seen SAR as a burden on "the old boy's club" times have changed a bit now,unfortunately it's too late for SAR...

anyway this is gettin O/T

TempestSabre

I dunno I think essential services like SAR is very much on topic vs F22 which is just a fantasy with no justification in reality.

Dave!

sean_keevey wrote:

End this bloody scaremongery.

We don't need a bigger military full stop.

Hear hear. We aren't under attack, there is no need to buy new toys.