[article]'fascist fanaticism and radicalism is now rife amoung our young'

niencat

InFront wrote:

Not sure what kind of credibility the Tribune should be afforded if the Sheikh's comments really were totally misrepresented as they appear to have been.

They're following up this topic on a very similar line to last week, which is to try and give Joe Public something to worry about here as terrorism rears its ugly head abroad against the US et al. It is August, after all, it's silly season.

Infront, it is simply silly to think that radicalism among muslims in ireland is not happening. It is happening in all over western Europe. Why not in Irleand? Especially since Ireland is so close to Britain.

The Daily Mail reported that two people who reside in Ireland and are Muslims were arrested about 10-11 days ago in Holyhead, the man is known to have extremist views. The gardai searched the house of the woman who was also arrested and found a laptop with information on it, downloaded from the internet, on how to make bombs.

However, I heard that the man and woman are released. I do not know why, someone mentioned in passing and I have not had the time to research further.

There IS radicalism. And any extremist is a potential danger, no matter where he or she lives.
To make people aware that these things are also in Ireland is not scaremongering. It is making people aware of a problem.

To make a comparison: suicide and road accidents and alcoholism are all problems here in Ireland. Should we not talk about it, because it may make people scared/uncomfortable? I am sure that the people who started pointing out that there was a problem with alcoholism in Ireland, or suicide among young men in Ireland, people tried to wave it away. they were not believed, until figures proved them right.

One can hide one's head in the sand if one wants, or one can acknowledge there is a problem, and help to find solutions to the problem. If I was a muslim, I would go for the latter.

I do realise that a lot of muslims feel under attack, and want to defend their faith. I have nothing but sympathy for that. I am a foreigner in this country and my culture is quite different from Irish culture. I know what it is to be misinterpreted and misunderstood and though I am caucasian, I have experienced being treated as less because i have a slight accent. Because of all that I can empathise with anybody who is treated with less respect they deserve just because they look different or people are spreading rumours about their religion/culture/race/nationality.

The best way to defend one's faith however is to acknowledge that there are trends among its followers that are worrisome and then work with as many organisations of one's faith together to help to find solutions for the problem.

Jackie laughlin

InFront,
Good liberal people who are not anti-Islamic, who either don't care about a person's religion or would see a multitude of religions having a role in making society safe from the domination of one religion, do NOT underestimate the feeling of offence. It will not be easy for Islam to get past this stage in its development. However, if Islam does not want to be in conflict in western democracies, then it must become used to being the butt of jokes. All but a very few Catholics find Fr. Ted funny now. Let's all make fun of the Prophet until the jokes become sophisticated and the Muslims laugh too. Then they can go pray.

Misguided liberalism has encouraged Muslim sesitivity.

darkman2

IMO I think Islam has some serious issues it has to sort out. No1 among these is for those in power and Muslims themselves to categorically condemn any barbaric act of terrorism and stop raising the 'Ifs' and 'buts'. Come out and say that evey single act of terrorism, all suicide bombings are completely unacceptable and wrong. Islam has earned a name for itself in the last decade and tbh its deserved. Dont try to say it isnt because it is and dont say 'its only a minority'. I dont think ive EVER heard a Cleric or Imman or a Preacher unconditionally condemn all acts of terrorism. Why is this? Should this be acceptable to the powers that be in the West? Your more them happy to come here to make money but yet Muslims appear to have serious issues with our societies. You know what im gonna say next: If you dont like it here............

InFront

Jackie laughlin wrote:

InFront,
if Islam does not want to be in conflict in western democracies, then it must become used to being the butt of jokes.

Going by this and other posts, I find your theories on taking offence interesting.

Do you think the Orange Order should be, and should always have been, allowed march through Catholic areas?
The orange men just have to keep marching and marching until the Catholics become numb to it, dont you agree? Silly to get offended over a marching band sporting the colour orange.
In fact, maybe the North should adapt an orange flag - and compulsory orange passports! Just to numb the Catholics until they stop getting offended, you know. :rolleyes:

Seriously, what is your problem with people protesting this sort of thing? Take some of your own medicine, and put up with it.

If you dont like it here............

There are far too many dots in that ellipsis. If you don't want to abide by the rules of the English language - go to Pakistan. There are no ellipses in Urdu:)

InFront

niencat wrote:

I hope you read my post well... I am not saying one person. I am saying a group of people, elected by Muslims all over the world, should lead Muslims.

I think the same of the Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic church. I think the world as a whole has outgrown the practice of leadership and absolute obedience to one person. It is far better if any governing body consists of a number of people who are elected by people from that religion all over the world.

Hi niencat, yes I can see the benefits of having a system in place that would speak for all Muslims (presumably you mean within Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi, etc?)

However, when you have one or one hundred people speaking on behalf of millions and millions of people, there will always be disagreement and misrepresentation.
That leads to the possibility of a split, and at the moment, a split is the exact thing that Islam doesn't need:)
As you know Islam is a very personal and private religion - you don't even have to enter a mosque to be a Muslim - and I think that a central authority , etc, would take away from that very personal relationship with Allah.

darkman2

InFront wrote:

=


Yesssss??......................................................................

Then Go Home. And I dont mean back to Dundrum, I mean go and live in a Muslim country where you will be welcomed im sure because whilst most here dont have the guts to be honest the vast majority of us secretly dislike Islam (appart from those who practice it). Thats being honest, none of this PC nonsense that comes from certain quarters.

InFront

Oh I edited that post long ago.

How about you go? They'd love you in Karachi, darkman.

darkman2

InFront wrote:

Oh I edited that post long ago.

How about you go? They'd love you in Karachi, darkman.

Really? Hows that?

I aint goin anywhere. Can you categorically condemn all suicide bombing, murders and acts of terrorism by sections of Muslim communities right across the world????

Oh and dont come up with some bull about me condemning the US or anything like that, im talking about your religion. (Im assuming your a Muslim of course going on previous posts)


Second time ive asked.

InFront

I would have hoped my opinions on extremism were obvious, and if you're asking me to spell it out because I'm Muslim then, no.
Anyway trying to keep it civil...

niencat wrote:

Infront, it is simply silly to think that radicalism among muslims in ireland is not happening. It is happening in all over western Europe. Why not in Irleand? Especially since Ireland is so close to Britain.

Yes we are very close, however politically we are quite different in terms of foreign policy. However, yes as I have said, I myself have noticed boys - friends' brothers, etc, who were a few years behind me in school come up with some pretty stupid theories of Islam, so I'm not trying to disregard it at all.
I seriously doubt that extremism is rife here that's all, and I think that suggesting so is scaremongering. You seem to know the Muslim community pretty well, how would you describe it? Peaceful or violent?.
Ireland and Islam actually mix very well together, and hopefully that relationship will continue indefinitely.

The best way to defend one's faith however is to acknowledge that there are trends among its followers that are worrisome and then work with as many organisations of one's faith together to help to find solutions for the problem.

Agreed, and I understand the Sheikh is very active in promoting that and I'd agree with him 100%. However, I don't think, despite his differences with Clonskeagh, that any Muslim leader or teacher disagrees with him.

darkman2

InFront wrote:

I would have hoped my opinions on extremism were obvious, and if you're asking me to spell it out because I'm Muslim then, no.

No you dont condemn terrorist acts by Muslims? Or no your unable to answer a direct question?. Im not trying to be confrontational btw even though my posts may appear blunt. Im just looking for an answer. Its actually not obvious to me from previous posts that you condemn all terrorist acts. Oh and before you think ive an issue with Islam, ive serious reservations about Isreal and elements of Western Society but thats neither here nor there. I just want to know, from a Muslim, that the stereotypes that have developed are either true or untrue. Its a fair question.

MiCr0

darkman2 and InFront - can you stop the direct attacks on each other - and discuss the topic

Jackie laughlin

The "go home" stuff is silly. Many Muslims are native Irish or born here. Others are EU or Irish citizens. Indeed I was told to go live in Britain by a pseudo-republican because I speak Irish and value Anglo Irish culture!!

Yes I would be in favour of Orange marches as long as they could be achieved without violent reaction. You've created a good parallel about fear of Muslim reaction contributing to an illiberal PC silence.

Come on, try it. You must know a rude joke about the Prophet. Let's have it!

Wibbs

InFront wrote:

When something is genuinely offensive, it's not fair for bystanders to say 'forget it' or 'get over it'.

No it's not fair for bystanders to say that. It's for those offended to say that, thereby killing the power of it.

A lot of people think Muslims are making a big deal over nothing, a lot of people on boards would think that. Islam is very, very personal to most Muslims, and if a person is genuinely offended, in any social or religious or political, or even sporting realm, it is far better that this be voiced as opposed to 'pent up'.

Voiced is good, indeed it should be voiced. The violent reaction by too many in the Islamic community is the problem I have.

Should Muslims just sit back and let others misrepresent us?

Nail on head. You shouldn't. It would be good for the community to represent the true face of Islam in the world. Condemnation of violent reactions and attempting to stop some of the the community support for same would be a start. To be fair many are doing precisely that.

So often when these attacks happen, Muslim leaders are accused of not being vocal enough in condemning it, remember Brendan O'Connor's ''where are all the moderate Muslims?'' article comes particularly to mind. Yet when we complain and protest, Muslims are being too sensitive.
Of course the Muslim reaction to the cartoons was not specifically religious, as it came at a time when Muslims were feeling particularly vulnerable.

Although there have been protests against the violence perpetrated in Islams name, They have been nothing like the size of the protest over the cartoons, have they?

Do you think a newspaper as huge as that would even try to present stereotypical Jews and indeed Judaism in such a bad light because of their affairs in Israel? Of course not. But it's okay to do so with Muslims?

Actually they have and there are far more "offensive" stereotyping of Jews in middle eastern newspapers. Given the often disparaging remarks found in the Muslim texts against Jews that's not too surprising.

Islam is a safe bet at the moment. It's still acceptable to present Muslims in this way, and growing a thick skin isnt going to make that go away.

IMHO It will. If Islam grew a thick skin it would make the charges against it appear stupid and ignorant. When death threats and actual murders are carried out in it's name it hardly helps the idea of the "religion of Peace".

If the Times presented such a cartoon of an Irish Catholic Priest conspiring with the IRA during the troubles in the early 1980s, would Irish people, and Irish Catholics be best advised to say nothing?

Maybe, maybe not, but would the Times editor and others connected to the paper have been genuinely in fear of their lives like the various people who were threatened, injured or killed over the Satanic Verses and the cartoon affairs?

However, turning a blind eye to a susatined prejudice is not something that should be encouraged.

Agreed and that goes both ways.

You are probably correct there. There are probably two reasons for that. Firstly, the vast majority of Muslims simply believe it is the direct word of God delivered to the Prophet pbuh, and don't have an interest in delving into the tedious work of tracing it. Secondly: it can't be objectively analysed and ruled on definitively, and there is a danger that any findings would be presented in a negative light, and taken as fact by most people, even if that were not accurate.

OK but the other religious texts of the world equally held in high esteem by their adherants have had that kind of historical analysis. Why the special treatment in Islam's case? Again we have seen death threats, and attacks on those who did try to publish research(including Muslim researchers). Those who do research on the Islamic texts have to hide behind pyseudonyms because of same. In fact many of the published works are by long dead researchers. By comparison publish an historical analysis of the Torah or Gospels and see the reaction. Also the claim that the texts can't be objectively analysed or it's "tedious" to do so is frankly puzzling. It smacks of "la la la la la" fingers in the earism. They can be analysed as much as any others. In fact better than as an example the christian texts as they are more recent by comparison. Again special treatment rears it's head.

Do you think the Orange Order should be, and should always have been, allowed march through Catholic areas?
The orange men just have to keep marching and marching until the Catholics become numb to it, dont you agree? Silly to get offended over a marching band sporting the colour orange.

Actually I do. How ridiculous would they look if the Catholics smiled or even cheered them on as the went walking by? If they made them cups of tea on the route it would be even better. Who would look the more foolish? The guys in the sashes and bowler hats marching back and forth like children celebrating a dead past or the Catholics who are acting like adults looking to a shared future?

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The "go home" stuff is silly

Silly is too small a word for it.

wes

I think the reaction to the cartoons was insane from a lot of people. I think the tactic of ignoring it and it will go away works for things like this. People are often just looking for a reaction, don't bother giving them one.

As for analysis, its sad that some Muslims are violently against this (actually I am rather puzzled by that one). Its stupid, insane and saddening that a Muslim would threaten anyone if they tried to do a indept analysis of the Koran. If you don't like the anlysis, don't read it, no ones holding a gun to ones head. We must accept negative critisim and respond accordingly with discussion and not violence. Sadly there is not a lot anyone can do to stop people who engage in violence at the drop of the hat.

Back to the original topic. While I am not too sure of the extent of extremism of Muslim in Ireland (to be fair I am a non practiscing Muslim hence have not talked to many Muslims outside my family). I think we need facts rather than speculation. A simple polll would go a long way towards this. I reckon there is extremism, but we need more information to tell us what the extent of it is and then maybe a plan of action to stop extremism can be put together within the Muslim community.

Schuhart

Wibbs wrote:

Silly is too small a word for it.

Agreed. It reminds me of an old Martyn Turner cartoon depicting a Stone Age Irishman confronting some Bronze Age warriors with a placard reading ‘Celts Go Home’.

To ask that a Muslim to please not get offended is to give a free rein to people who would distort the face of Islam.

People have the right to express views in relation of Islam, Christianity and other faiths that their adherents would regard as distortion. I’ve given the example elsewhere of the way the Quran describes the foundation of Christianity – the idea that God had a son – as a ‘disaster’. Islam has a perfect right to preach that doctrine, and others have an equal right to express their view of Islam.

InFront wrote:

Secondly: it can't be objectively analysed and ruled on definitively, and there is a danger that any findings would be presented in a negative light, and taken as fact by most people, even if that were not accurate.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Wibbs. The lack of curiousity about something so basic to the faith sends alarm bells ringing that, at some level, people can guess what investigation would reveal.

InFront wrote:

I would have thought that article was good evidence that calm debate and examination of Islam is welcomed.

At one level, it does – clearly there are questioning voices within Islam. But you have to appreciate that scholars solemnly debating whether a death penalty for apostates is doctrinally sound is a bit much in 2006. By comparison, the last heretic executed by the Inquisition (according to wikipedia) was 1826, with the Inquisition itself being abolished in 1834.

The more liberal party to that debate may well be simply putting his case politely. But I’m honestly thinking about how someone has to express themselves when walking on eggshells. I picture him moving through a world with parallels in events like the publication of Valley of the Squinting Windows. People resist unwelcome truths.

The mindset is known to us, and not uniquely Islamic. Its summarised by a friend of mine describing the climate of her upbringing in the West of Ireland as ‘its fine to talk, but you wouldn’t want to be saying anything.’

wes wrote:

People are often just looking for a reaction, don't bother giving them one.

Sometimes, this can be true. I think its also true to say that the seeds of the reaction from non-Muslims was laid by the controversy over the Satanic Verses.

darkman2

MiCr0 wrote:

darkman2 and InFront - can you stop the direct attacks on each other - and discuss the topic

Fair enough.

Like practically every single Muslim commentator he has not answered that question. Thats my point. Ppl are too soft on Islam. Understandably their actually afraid to ask proper questions of Muslims because they dont want to be labeled racist or whatever. These questions should be asked and they should be answered. Afterall were entertaining the Muslims here from the Middle East.

Jackie laughlin

Does anyone know if there are Ahmadi Muslims in Ireland? I understand that they reject Jihad completely and are persecuted by other Muslims.

Schuhart

darkman2 wrote:

Understandably their actually afraid to ask proper questions of Muslims because they dont want to be labeled racist or whatever.

I don't think anyone need fear such a label if their questions are proper.

darkman2 wrote:

Afterall were entertaining the Muslims here from the Middle East.

For some reason this statement conjured up an image in my mind of rows of Arabs in traditional costume solemnly taking in a performance by Brendan Grace.

As I think has been pointed out, at this stage many Muslims are simply Irish. Some are converts. Others are recent immigrants, something hardly unknown to Irish people who have made their homes all over the globe.

Every journey starts with a single step. I'd suggest a useful place to start reflection on this whole 'entertaining' business would be to consider how many abroad felt at the sight of squads of ignorant, superstitious Catholic peasants from Ireland cluttering up their streets with drunken brawls, and corrupting their domestic politics with their clannish clientelist culture.

darkman2

Schuhart wrote:

I don't think anyone need fear such a label if their questions are proper.For some reason this statement conjured up an image in my mind of rows of Arabs in traditional costume solemnly taking in a performance by Brendan Grace.

As I think has been pointed out, at this stage many Muslims are simply Irish. Some are converts. Others are recent immigrants, something hardly unknown to Irish people who have made their homes all over the globe.

Every journey starts with a single step. I'd suggest a useful place to start reflection on this whole 'entertaining' business would be to consider how many abroad felt at the sight of squads of ignorant, superstitious Catholic peasants from Ireland cluttering up their streets with drunken brawls, and corrupting their domestic politics with their clannish clientelist culture.

Irish ppl didnt go all over the world with their local priests preaching suicide bombings, did they?

Its a simple question. A 4 year old could answer yes or no.

Will our Muslim friend condemn all acts of terrorism carried out by Muslims all over the World?

Its simple. I dont see the problem here. Yes or No?

BTW we are entertaining Muslims here. i.e they are coming here for economic purposes. I as an Irish tax payer dont want to be giving some Muslim terrorist gouger, who has a problem with me, or my beliefs money for the privilage.

Frank Grimes

darkman2 wrote:

Irish ppl didnt go all over the world with their local priests preaching suicide bombings, did they?

Are you suggesting that all Muslims do? Some Irish people were responsible for bombings too not so long ago, maybe you shouldn't forget that while you're tarring a group with the same brush.

Will our Muslim friend condemn all acts of terrorism carried out by Muslims all over the World?

I don't know where you're getting the idea from that Muslims don't condemn terrorist acts.
A simple Google search will show you that's not the case. Here's a few links anyway:

http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/ez/isl/0-sbm/U.S.Muslim.Fatwa.Ag.Terror.html
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6813
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
http://www.wbtv.com/news/topstories/3553537.html
http://www.islamicinstitute.org/fb-2005/morecndmn7-7.asp
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

BTW we are entertaining Muslims here. i.e they are coming here for economic purposes.

What about Muslims born and raised here? Or do you not consider them "Irish" enough?

darkman2

Frank Grimes wrote:

Are you suggesting that all Muslims do? Some Irish people were responsible for bombings too not so long ago, maybe you shouldn't forget that while you're tarring a group with the same brush.

I don't know where you're getting the idea from that Muslims don't condemn terrorist acts.
A simple Google search will show you that's not the case. Here's a few links anyway:

http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/ez/isl/0-sbm/U.S.Muslim.Fatwa.Ag.Terror.html
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6813
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm
http://www.wbtv.com/news/topstories/3553537.html
http://www.islamicinstitute.org/fb-2005/morecndmn7-7.asp
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php


What about Muslims born and raised here? Or do you not consider them "Irish" enough?

I dont see them as Irish, no. Why would I. Islam and Ireland are like chalk and cheese. Its alien to us. Ive no pproblem saying that.

Frank Grimes

darkman2 wrote:

I dont see them as Irish, no. Why would I. Islam and Ireland are like chalk and cheese. Its alien to us. Ive no pproblem saying that.

It doesn't matter really what you think or don't have problems with saying. They are Irish.

InFront

Wibbs wrote:

Condemnation of violent reactions and attempting to stop some of the the community support for same would be a start. To be fair many are doing precisely that.

People should not feel that this doesn't happen just because you dont have episodes of Dr Phil called 'My sons an extremist and I want him OUT'.
I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people would think of 'an extremist in the family' quite like you'd think of a 'drug user in the family'. It's not something Muslim families hope their boys will aspire to. Parents, and certainly religious leaders, do condemn terrorism.
I think the reason you don't have the Imam of the Dublin Mosque or other religious leaders hanging around RTE 24-7 is because they don't want to segregate the very established Muslim community here by making violent extremism seem 'commonplace', and choose to conduct their teachings from within.
I don't see the point of preaching to Catholic Mayo sheepfarmers or Cork housewives on Gerry Ryan, tbh.:)

Although there have been protests against the violence perpetrated in Islams name, They have been nothing like the size of the protest over the cartoons, have they?

No, but I suppose terrorism is something they don't feel as connected to, in comparison to the cartoons. Personally I don't feel guilty over 9-11 because I have nothing to feel guilty about, and my feelings are largely the same as any of you on that. But the Danish cartoons were specific to all Muslims, and peaceful protests, which received little or no media coverage, were justified in my opinion.

Actually they have and there are far more "offensive" stereotyping of Jews in middle eastern newspapers.

Arabia does not equate solely to Islam. What about the Indian, Indonesian and Malasian Muslims, European Muslims (5 million in France - thats more than the entire population of Syria, more than Behrain) Irish and British Muslims, American Muslims, Spanish Muslims. I'm talking about major newspapers in the west like USA Today. Caricatures of other Western races and wide religious prejudices based on localised conflicts would be seen as ignorant.


It smacks of "la la la la la" fingers in the earism. They can be analysed as much as any others. In fact better than as an example the christian texts as they are more recent by comparison. Again special treatment rears it's head.

I'm not arguing with the research, I just think that given the political climate the authenticity of such findings could be called into question, and exaggerated. If someone wants to research the Qur'an I hope they wouldn't be denied that courtesy, it would be extremely rude to say the very least. Personally, I think everyone should read it, it would clear up a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Originally posted by Schuhart
I picture him moving through a world with parallels in events like the publication of Valley of the Squinting Windows. People resist unwelcome truths.
The mindset is known to us, and not uniquely Islamic. Its summarised by a friend of mine describing the climate of her upbringing in the West of Ireland as ‘its fine to talk, but you wouldn’t want to be saying anything.’

I wouldn't call his view on apostasy an unwelcome truth, I think many people would feel more comfortable with his interpretation than certain scholars'. I think he managed to get his mesage across far more effectively than someone who came in on a rant and started damning Islam. That's the sort of calm and rational discussion that Islam actually needs to, and does, encourage, not The Satanic Verses.
Islam is not perfect, even scholars are not perfect, all that anyone can do is their best. I agree with you that Islam is very conservative and no doubt people are afraid of debate for what it might do to the Muslim community. That's a very natural fear, it's not the most progressive mindset, but it is understandable.

Originally posted by Jackie Laughlin
Does anyone know if there are Ahmadi Muslims in Ireland? I understand that they reject Jihad completely and are persecuted by other Muslims.

Yes there are Ahmadiyya here, on quite a small scale. Persecution by other Muslims is not unique to the Ahmaadi - look at Pakistan and more topically, Iraq where Shia and Sunnis persecute the other. And I wonder what meaning you are attaching to Jihad in the above statement. I doubt they see themselves as spiritually static and perfected.
They weren't persecuted for being perceived as a peaceful sect. It was boring old religious rivalry and suspicion afaik.

darkman2

Frank Grimes wrote:

It doesn't matter really what you think or don't have problems with saying. They are Irish.

Im Irish and Im telling you I dont think they are Irish. Is that ok with you?

Most of them living here are from Muslim countries.

Frank Grimes

darkman2 wrote:

Im Irish and Im telling you I dont think they are Irish. Is that ok with you?

Most of them living here are from Muslim countries.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it won't change the fact that Irish Muslims are actually Irish. This won't change because you (or anyone else for that matter) don't like it.

darkman2

Frank Grimes wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but it won't change the fact that Irish Muslims are actually Irish. This won't change because you (or anyone else for that matter) don't like it.

And what if I told you that the majority of Irish ppl dont view Muslims as having a connection with Ireland. They secretly dislike Muslims and will under no circumstances have their sons or daughters go out with a Muslim man or woman for example. They would be justified in their concerns too. This is reality. Something that the liberal's agenda convieniently ignores. That they are regarded as foreign.

Also it dosnt help when a Muslim comes on here and refuses to answer a question about condeming all terrorist acts by Muslims.

Frank Grimes

darkman2 wrote:

And what if I told you that the majority of Irish ppl dont view Muslims as having a connection with Ireland.

I'd think it's remarkable that you have such a clear insight into the thinking of 4 odd million people.
It doesn't matter what the majority of people think, it doesn't make it automatically correct.

Also it dosnt help when a Muslim comes on here and refuses to answer a question about condeming all terrorist acts by Muslims.

Why should he be expected to? I've read most of his posts on the subject and it's obvious to me where he stands.
You were stating earlier that "Muslims" don't condemn terrorism anyway, I've shown you that is not the case. Why do you want to hear it from him now?

Diogenes

darkman2 wrote:

And what if I told you that the majority of Irish ppl dont view Muslims as having a connection with Ireland. They secretly dislike Muslims and will under no circumstances have their sons or daughters go out with a Muslim man or woman for example. They would be justified in their concerns too. This is reality.

If its a reality I'm sure you'd be able to offer some evidence? An a poll some statistics?

Something that the liberal's agenda convieniently ignores. That they are regarded as foreign.

By you they get to hold Irish passports and are Irish citizens, just because you don't like something doesn't make it so.

Also it dosnt help when a Muslim comes on here and refuses to answer a question about condeming all terrorist acts by Muslims.

I don't know do you feel obliged to apologise to residents of Manchester Warrinpoint, Birmingham and Brighton every time you meet them? They've been victims of Irish extremists.

Wibbs

Schuhart wrote:

I don't think anyone need fear such a label if their questions are proper.

Right on the money.

For some reason this statement conjured up an image in my mind of rows of Arabs in traditional costume solemnly taking in a performance by Brendan Grace.

Now that would cause a holy war. I'd be joining up too.

Every journey starts with a single step. I'd suggest a useful place to start reflection on this whole 'entertaining' business would be to consider how many abroad felt at the sight of squads of ignorant, superstitious Catholic peasants from Ireland cluttering up their streets with drunken brawls, and corrupting their domestic politics with their clannish clientelist culture.

True enough.

InFront wrote:

I don't see the point of preaching to Catholic Mayo sheepfarmers or Cork housewives on Gerry Ryan, tbh:)

Funny enough though maybe they're exactly the people they should be talking to. After all it's not beyond the possiblity that the sheep farmers and Gerry Ryan listeners of Ireland are most likely to harbour dodgy ideas about Islam. If you're preaching to the so called "right on" brigade you're in danger of preaching to the choir. Look at some of the referenda of late. I suspect much of the swing to one side or the other was down to the aforementioned sheep farmers et al.

No, but I suppose terrorism is something they don't feel as connected to, in comparison to the cartoons. Personally I don't feel guilty over 9-11 because I have nothing to feel guilty about, and my feelings are largely the same as any of you on that.

Well if acts such as those were carried out in my name I'd be protesting(as I have re the IRA guff back in the day). If Islam is such a personal deep faith I would have thought one would feel a deeper connection to heinous crimes against humanity carried out in it's name than even the most insulting of cartoons.

Arabia does not equate solely to Islam.

Oh I do realise that.

What about the Indian, Indonesian and Malasian Muslims, European Muslims (5 million in France - thats more than the entire population of Syria, more than Behrain) Irish and British Muslims, American Muslims, Spanish Muslims.

Well during the cartoon business well dodgy cartoons were doing the rounds in France and Holland. Look at the death of the Van Gogh guy in Holland and the death threats to all and sundry who stuck their head above the parapet in both those countries and more. Most of the other countries you reference have had their own serious issues with Islamists. It's not just the middle east. Not by a long shot.

I'm talking about major newspapers in the west like USA Today. Caricatures of other Western races and wide religious prejudices based on localised conflicts would be seen as ignorant.

Indeed they might be, but they are still drawn. Some of the Israeli based stuff in USA today might be construed as dodgy if you were of a mind to think so. One example I saw in the washington post had a devout Jewish rabbi type carrying the torah in one hand and an M16 in the other going on about forced settlement. Now given the current situation it's more likely to be Islam, but it's not just Islam.

'm not arguing with the research, I just think that given the political climate the authenticity of such findings could be called into question, and exaggerated. If someone wants to research the Qur'an I hope they wouldn't be denied that courtesy, it would be extremely rude to say the very least.

I know you aren't particularly arguing about research and there are many more Muslims who would agree with you. I also get your point about the current situation. Then again this censure is going on for far longer than the current situation and I don't see the devout hot heads going away anytime soon. Indeed the teachings and punishments are quite clear on blasphemy so it's easy for some to think they have the green light for killing people.

Personally, I think everyone should read it, it would clear up a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.

I have and TBH it created more questions than answers for me(especially the hadeeth).

I agree with you that Islam is very conservative and no doubt people are afraid of debate for what it might do to the Muslim community. That's a very natural fear, it's not the most progressive mindset, but it is understandable.

I can honestly see that and why people would be afraid. Not too long ago Irish catholics would have been similar. Now you could equally argue we threw the baby out with the bathwater, but that's another debate(and one I would have some agreement with).

darkman2 wrote:

Im Irish and Im telling you I dont think they are Irish. Is that ok with you?

Yea it's OK with me. To each their own. Now I on occasion am on the far right of Atilla the hun, but to me a Muslim bloke born and bred here is a Mick like the rest of us. Same as a Hindu, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Wiccan etc etc. If he's originally from a foriegn country well then he's either a naturalised Mick or a guest of the Micks. It's down to good manners. If anybody "Irish" or no, starts trouble then they should be slapped down like anybody else. The nature of their imaginary friend doesn't eneter into it. I have enough trouble from "Irish" Irish people to be unduly worrying about some other bunch.

Also it dosnt help when a Muslim comes on here and refuses to answer a question about condeming all terrorist acts by Muslims.

Well it wouldn't help but he has answered. I could go back and quote him, but begging his indulgence I'll spell it out; InFront as a Muslim has in the past and continues to condemn all terrorist acts by those who think of themselves as Muslims. Full stop, end of.

InFront wrote:

I would have hoped my opinions on extremism were obvious

Maybe not. Try crayon next time. It might be more legible to some.:rolleyes:

InFront

Wibbs wrote:

Funny enough though maybe they're exactly the people they should be talking to. After all it's not beyond the possiblity that the sheep farmers and Gerry Ryan listeners of Ireland are most likely to harbour dodgy ideas about Islam.

True, and I think that is niencat's argument as well and there is a certain amount of truth in it. It's often not enough to take action, but to be seen to take action, and it is probably the lack of the latter that is upsetting people. The meetings of the IFI and conversations at the Muslim dinnertable aren't very public expressions of condemnation, agreed.
I don't have a problem with our Muslim leaders condemning extremists, not in the slightest, I think they're just apprehensive of making Irish people think there's something to be worried about, which wouldn't be the consensus amongst the community that I know of anyway. I know that seems counter-productive. They have publicly condemned extremism after the attacks on London and New York, whether they then enter the realm of public radio and TV to continue to address the topic for Irish people is a matter for themselves.

If Islam is such a personal deep faith I would have thought one would feel a deeper connection to heinous crimes against humanity carried out in its name than even the most insulting of cartoons.

I think that most Muslims genuinely don't think it represents Islam, and do feel very detached from that version of Islam.
I don't like him, but I don't protest against what Ahmadinejad does in Iran or what goes on in Saudi, because I feel it's political and not religious. Although I'd like to see those regimes out of there as much of the next guy, I don't think the religious outlook is comparable with ours, and hopefully people already know that.
The Danish cartoons suggested that 'our Islam' was 'their Islam', and so by protesting the integrity of Islam we were protesting the terrorism simply by default.

One example I saw in the Washington post had a devout Jewish rabbi type carrying the torah in one hand and an M16 in the other going on about forced settlement. Now given the current situation it's more likely to be Islam, but it's not just Islam.

I'm not aware of that one, but that's exactly the kind of thing I think creates more problems than solutions, and is no less repugnant as the cartoons that generalize about Muslims. I just think there should be some editorial standards or whatever that condemn that sort of tarring.

I have and TBH it created more questions than answers for me(especially the hadeeth).

I know, it is not always an easy book to read, I just think people should try and realize it does try and encourage the more favourable aspects of humanity, and that the standard version doesn't include a chapter on how to make a bomb using kitchen ingredients.

InFront as a Muslim has in the past and continues to condemn all terrorist acts by those who think of themselves as Muslims.

I'm afraid Wibbs is spot on with that one, darkman. Sorry to disappoint.

darkman2

InFront wrote:

True, and I think that is niencat's argument as well and there is a certain amount of truth in it. It's often not enough to take action, but to be seen to take action, and it is probably the lack of the latter that is upsetting people. The meetings of the IFI and conversations at the Muslim dinnertable aren't very public expressions of condemnation, agreed.
I don't have a problem with our Muslim leaders condemning extremists, not in the slightest, I think they're just apprehensive of making Irish people think there's something to be worried about, which wouldn't be the consensus amongst the community that I know of anyway. I know that seems counter-productive. They have publicly condemned extremism after the attacks on London and New York, whether they then enter the realm of public radio and TV to continue to address the topic for Irish people is a matter for themselves.


I think that most Muslims genuinely don't think it represents Islam, and do feel very detached from that version of Islam.
I don't like him, but I don't protest against what Ahmadinejad does in Iran or what goes on in Saudi, because I feel it's political and not religious. Although I'd like to see those regimes out of there as much of the next guy, I don't think the religious outlook is comparable with ours, and hopefully people already know that.
The Danish cartoons suggested that 'our Islam' was 'their Islam', and so by protesting the integrity of Islam we were protesting the terrorism simply by default.



I'm not aware of that one, but that's exactly the kind of thing I think creates more problems than solutions, and is no less repugnant as the cartoons that generalize about Muslims. I just think there should be some editorial standards or whatever that condemn that sort of tarring.


I know, it is not always an easy book to read, I just think people should try and realize it does try and encourage the more favourable aspects of humanity, and that the standard version doesn't include a chapter on how to make a bomb using kitchen ingredients.




I'm afraid he's spot on with that one, darkman. Sorry to disappoint.

You seem to have an incapacity to answer the question I put to you. I dont expect you to, being Muslim and all that but it only backs up my view of Muslims.

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

You seem to have an incapacity to answer the question I put to you. I dont expect you to, being Muslim and all that but it only backs up my view of Muslims.

Let me guess, you're one of those "i'm insecure in my heritage so i'll condemn everyone elses to feel better" people. Oh look your signature confirms it.

Anyone who thinks nationality matters is a ****w|t. If you're proud of being Irish it implies you'd be ashamed of not being Irish if you were born anywhere else. Muslims born here are Irish Muslims, none of this "british born" Muslim bull. Can't wait for the first herald am "Irish born Muslim" story.

Infront - I want to use this moron as an example of what people on this thread mean when they say Muslims shouldn't be offended by people showing satirical cartoons.

Surely you realise that we realise this guys low IQ scum. I mean if you think that non-Muslims would be influenced by him that's a bigger insult to non-Muslims than any satirical cartoon ever made.

That Iranian cartoon you posted - surely you can see how thats laughing at the stereotypes of Islam rather than actual Islam. Just like the Danish cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb in his Turban isn't calling Muslims terrorists - its saying "it's funny that people could consider this a reality" Afaik some of the writers were Muslims.

It's just like father Ted's laughing at the priest stereotype

And just like that show on rte showing a black guy in a zoo was laughing at te African stereotype.

If only Brasseye would do a Muslim episode.

Terry

Darkman, i'm Irish. was born and raised here to Irish parents who came from Irish parents and so on going back 400 traceable years. they were catholic and brought me up catholic.
if i was to convert to islam tomorrow, would that mean that i am no longer Irish?

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Let me guess, you're one of those "i'm insecure in my heritage so i'll condemn everyone elses to feel better" people. Oh look your signature confirms it.

Anyone who thinks nationality matters is a ****w|t. If you're proud of being Irish it implies you'd be ashamed of not being Irish if you were born anywhere else. Muslims born here are Irish Muslims, none of this "british born" Muslim bull. Can't wait for the first herald am "Irish born Muslim" story.

Infront - I want to use this moron as an example of what people on this thread mean when they say Muslims shouldn't be offended by people showing satirical cartoons.

Surely you realise that we realise this guys low IQ scum. I mean if you think that non-Muslims would be influenced by him that's a bigger insult to non-Muslims than any satirical cartoon ever made.

That Iranian cartoon you posted - surely you can see how thats laughing at the stereotypes of Islam rather than actual Islam. Just like the Danish cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb in his Turban isn't calling Muslims terrorists - its saying "it's funny that people could consider this a reality" Afaik some of the writers were Muslims.

It's just like father Ted's laughing at the priest stereotype

And just like that show on rte showing a black guy in a zoo was laughing at te African stereotype.

If only Brasseye would do a Muslim episode.

I asked him if he would condemn Muslim terrorist acts across the Globe and he hasnt done that.

darkman2

julep wrote:

Darkman, i'm Irish. was born and raised here to Irish parents who came from Irish parents and so on going back 400 traceable years. they were catholic and brought me up catholic.
if i was to convert to islam tomorrow, would that mean that i am no longer Irish?

I never mentioned Irish born Muslims. Im talking about the Afghan women for example you stand on Grafton St begging (I saw them spit at some guy a week or two back:mad: ) or the veiled (actually quite scary looking) women who I see on Talbot street almost everyday who are clearly not Irish. No he has me flustered because he wont answer my question.

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

I asked him if he would condemn Muslim terrorist acts across the Globe and he hasnt done that.

Yes he has, you didn't get him because you're a tool.

"I would have hoped my opinions on extremism were obvious, and if you're asking me to spell it out because I'm Muslim then, no. "

I'd imagine he means(and do correct me if I'm wrong IF) "I condemn terrorist actions, its so obvious from my posts that I don't see it neccessary to confirm, I also dislike the fact that you assume I think a certain way because I'm a Muslim"

Can't you see how people don't like answering offensive assumitive questions coming from the likes of you? Why should he have to answer?

How would you like it if people constantly asked you if you condemn the IRA bombing British Military targets?

Schuhart

Not too much to add, as I’d only be repeating Wibbs.

darkman2 wrote:

Irish ppl didnt go all over the world with their local priests preaching suicide bombings, did they?

I don’t know the extent to which priests were involved, but Irish people certainly did this and this (for which a number of innocent Irish people were convicted). With that in mind, it should not be too hard to see the relationship between terrorists and the communities they claim to be fighting for. Terrorism is the political equivalent of stalking, so its hardly reasonable to hold a whole community responsible. We should know this.

Incidently, Irish people also did this.

I never mentioned Irish born Muslims. Im talking about the Afghan women for example you stand on Grafton St begging (I saw them spit at some guy a week or two back ) or the veiled (actually quite scary looking) women who I see on Talbot street almost everyday who are clearly not Irish.

So you can be Irish and Muslim if you're not a scary looking Afghan woman. Should we have another citizenship referendum just to clarify this?

InFront wrote:

People should not feel that this doesn't happen just because you dont have episodes of Dr Phil called 'My sons an extremist and I want him OUT'.

Shhh. Oprah might actually do it.

InFront wrote:

That's the sort of calm and rational discussion that Islam actually needs to, and does, encourage, not The Satanic Verses.

I’ve just finished ‘Shame’ and, in fairness, I see a lot in the book partly because I see a not dissimilar attitude to religion. At the same time, provocative works can and do act as a spur for necessary reform by others.

InFront wrote:

Islam is not perfect, even scholars are not perfect, all that anyone can do is their best.

Indeed, and in fairness its not as if piles of heretics are being burned at the stake. I noticed a thread on islamonline.net by a woman in Jordan worried because her Finnish niece plans to leave the Islamic faith. With very little change, both the query and the advice could be from the pages of the Sacred Heart Messenger.

These concerns are not strange to us, either at the personal or general level. Neither is the country so far from its past swathed in one faith that it can claim religious freedom and free debate as a traditional core value.

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Yes he has, you didn't get him because you're a tool.

"I would have hoped my opinions on extremism were obvious, and if you're asking me to spell it out because I'm Muslim then, no. "

I'd imagine he means(and do correct me if I'm wrong IF) "I condemn terrorist actions, its so obvious from my posts that I don't see it neccessary to confirm, I also dislike the fact that you assume I think a certain way because I'm a Muslim"

Can't you see how people don't like answering offensive assumitive questions coming from the likes of you? Why should he have to answer?

How would you like it if people constantly asked you if you condemn the IRA bombing British Military targets?

No he has not answered my question.

IF Can you pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeee answer my question.

Do you condemn all acts of terrorism my Muslims around the World?

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

I never mentioned Irish born Muslims. Im talking about the Afghan women for example you stand on Grafton St begging (I saw them spit at some guy a week or two back:mad: ) or the veiled (actually quite scary looking) women who I see on Talbot street almost everyday who are clearly not Irish. No he has me flustered because he wont answer my question.

look over page 4 of of this thread - someone told you it doesn't matter if you think Muslims born here aren't Irish because they are

you posted "
Im Irish and Im telling you I dont think they are Irish. Is that ok with you?"

Annoying the way the internet keeps a record of things isn't it?

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

No he has not answered my question.

IF Can you pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeee answer my question.

Do you condemn all acts of terrorism my Muslims around the World?[/

ughh you're even too stupid to use HTML properly!

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

look over page 4 of of this thread - someone told you it doesn't matter if you think Muslims born here aren't Irish because they are

you posted "
Im Irish and Im telling you I dont think they are Irish. Is that ok with you?"

Annoying the way the internet keeps a record of things isn't it?

Since your his con-joined twin and you answer for him, why dont you answer the question then in his absence!:rolleyes:

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

ughh you're even too stupid to use HTML properly!

I think you will find I used it just fine:D

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

I think you will find I used it just fine:D

hehe, you went back and edited it but missed your typo!

Since your his con-joined twin and you answer for him, why dont you answer the question then in his absence!

What in Allah's name do you mean by this?

I mean did you even notice that before you came along we were having an argument about the right to poke fun at Islam?

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

hehe, you went back and edited it but missed your typo!




What in Allah's name do you mean by this?

I mean did you even notice that before you came along we were having an argument about the right to poke fun at Islam?

Are you a muslim too??

OK I will ask my question to him in a more pleasing manner:

IF, If you would be so kind, do you condemn all acts of terrorism by Muslims around the world without reservation?:)

InFront

You're ruining the thread with this garbage tbh so if I say this will you go away?

Yes I condemn all acts of terrorism by all Muslims all around the world

There, I'm only spelling it out because I think you're beautiful when you're angry.
Sorry I dont have time to reply to the other stuff am a bit busy atm (good clean suburban irish activities if you must know, darkman:) )

darkman2

InFront wrote:

You're ruining the thread with this garbage tbh so if I say this will you go away?

Yes I condemn all acts of terrorism by all Muslims all around the world

There, I'm only spelling it out because I think you're beautiful when you're angry.
Sorry I dont have time to reply to the other stuff am a bit busy atm (good clean suburban irish activities if you must know, darkman:) )

:eek: Its amazing. Thank you!!!!

Bottle_of_Smoke

darkman2 wrote:

Are you a muslim too??

OK I will ask my question to him in a more pleasing manner:

IF, If you would be so kind, do you condemn all acts of terrorism by Muslims around the world without reservation?:)

No, are you Autistic?

darkman2

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

No, are you Autistic?

hmmmmmmmmm nope cant say I am. As long as your sure your not a Muslim.

wes

InFront wrote:

Yes I condemn all acts of terrorism by all Muslims all around the world

I 2nd this btw.

I think we should both do put this as our sigs and wear t-shirts with this on it :rolleyes: .

InFront

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

That Iranian cartoon you posted - surely you can see how thats laughing at the stereotypes of Islam rather than actual Islam. Just like the Danish cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb in his Turban isn't calling Muslims terrorists - its saying "it's funny that people could consider this a reality" Afaik some of the writers were Muslims.

In fact the accompanying text said something quite different. It announced that Muslims must get used to being mocked and ridiculed if they wanted to enter Western society. I'd provide a link here, but you know. It's still easy to access anyway.
I suppose Jyllands Posten saw themselves as pioneers of that campaign... to do what? What have they to gain? If they see Muslims as a group of people with silly beliefs and odd traditions, so what? Why not just let Muslims get along with it, we're not hurting anybody. What is the motivation to choose something that offends millions of well intentioned people - just to prove that they can? That's not a sign of a healthy society, and it's not a good way to get your subject to agree with you.
Schuhart makes the comparison of terrorism to stalking, the printing of this kind of material is a sort of gross perversion itself. It's a downright abuse of the freedom of speech that we are lucky enough to enjoy here, there's nothing funny about it. The revisionist theory that it was all just a big misunderstanding also doesn't add up, given the magazine's controversial history.

With regard to you previous posts (few pages ago now). I didn't want to create a "woe is me" image of Islam, the comments I made about Islam having entered a dark age was actually meant in a response to Wes (who is Muslim) about the current state of Islam, and intended to reflect the inevitable sense of brotherhood that unites Muslim countries.
It may not make sense as to why French or Irish Muslims feel a bond with Palestinians or Bosnians or Muslims in the Kashmir, but there is a shared feature - Islam - which is akin to a nationality.
Up until the fourteenth century Muslim societies were among the most advanced in the world in terms of administration, trade, the arts and the sciences. Muslim nations have now entered a very dark era, I think it is the dark age of Islam, and I don't mean that in a self-pitying or melancholy way, I'm saying that when the dust settles, I think history will show this to have been the most challenging era that it has met.

Originally posted by Schuhart
At the same time, provocative works can and do act as a spur for necessary reform by others.

Provocative in the polite sense, yes, as in 'thought provoking'. Even wit can cause people to re-examine themselves and take stock, and realise their foolishness. Or the likes of Nineteen Eighty Four with the concept of "thoughtcrime". They are valuable works in that they ask the reader to examine himself and the actions of his country, his religion, his environment, etc.

But ridicule, like the Danish cartoons? I doubt it. Ridicule tells you what someone else says is wrong. Ridicule is never your own opinion, it's an idea that eminates from prejudices and I can only think of examples where ridicule makes people defensive.

I mean if you want to change someone's opinion in real life do you: show them that they are wrong, or simply tell them that they are wrong? I suspect most of us try to do the former. Argument only succeeds if the other subject comes and looks at your opinion, not if they're forced to look at it... I think the latter is what causes the "lalalala cant hear you" stance that Wibbs mentioned.