What Irish political party would you like to see disappear and why?

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

I wouldn't term it unclear, I said Ireland, meaning the whole of Ireland. You know well I'm a Republican so what else would I mean?

I'm not your sole audience here.

FTA69 wrote:

Not necessarily, for instance we have roughly 10% of the vote in the south while the PDs have 2%, yet they have 8 seats and we have 5. We still get more votes than them though.

In other words, you are only counting first-preference votes as a measure of popularity or "size". Given that (thankfully) that's not how our electoral system works, how can you consider it a useful metric?

FTA69 wrote:

Because Republicans and IRA ex-prisoners play a valuable role within Republican communities, ie defusing trouble at interface areas etc.

Would this role immediately vanish if the command structure of the IRA was no longer in place? What is it about the IRA that lends its members authority in their communities, if they have disarmed?

FTA69

I'm not your sole audience here

.

Whatever. I'm not getting into a drawn out polemic on what the term "Ireland" means, as far as I'm concerned it means the country as a whole.

In other words, you are only counting first-preference votes as a measure of popularity or "size". Given that (thankfully) that's not how our electoral system works, how can you consider it a useful metric?

If you can point to 200,000 people in the North voting for you over anyone else, and 150,000 in the south doing the same, surely then you could say that 350,000 people have voted for you as their first choice, ie the party they support?

Would this role immediately vanish if the command structure of the IRA was no longer in place? What is it about the IRA that lends its members authority in their communities, if they have disarmed?

The IRA does not have "authority", the people in those communities do, and that is what we are about, empowering people to help themselves. Yet again you seem to be getting at the notion that the Republican Movement has simply intimidated the community into supporting it. Also, I am not an IRA representative so I can't categorically state what they are doing or what they intend to do. All I have is informed speculation.

Chakar

The Socialist Party.

Diogenes

FTA69 wrote:

I wouldn't term it unclear, I said Ireland, meaning the whole of Ireland. You know well I'm a Republican so what else would I mean?



Not necessarily, for instance we have roughly 10% of the vote in the south while the PDs have 2%, yet they have 8 seats and we have 5. We still get more votes than them though.

So basically SF is the 3rd largest party in Ireland if you don't count membership, TDs and the manner in which our votes are tallied.

Oh yeah there's a yardstick.

Because Republicans and IRA ex-prisoners play a valuable role within Republican communities, ie defusing trouble at interface areas etc.

So what the IRA are now essentially a group of really tough lollypop ladies? Please explain how the IRA performs this specific situation. Give examples.

Counting first preference votes in the two most recent elections in the north and south I believe.

I've ridiculed this already.

It's not our "military wing", it its own organisation with its own command structure and membership, it makes its own decisions and is presided over by its own Council, Executive and is answerable to a General Army Convention of IRA Volunteers. That having been said we do have a link with them but by no means are we one and the same.

Ahem look I'm really not going to get into the Tran substation that SF use to pretend they are not intertwined with the IRA, a relationship that they either play up or play down when whichever one is the most convenient for them at the time.

You admit SF have a relationship with a private paramilitary army, that’s good enough, now do you think it's acceptable for a political party to have a paramilitary wing? Obviously you do, but I think you'll find you're going to have trouble winning over many more voters while your RA friends exist.

Not really, the only "weak" argument I see is someone trying to portray the 1969 split as a left-right divide which was clearly not the case.

Really? Where did I say that the split was a left/right divide? Exactly where? Don't try and stuff words into my mouth.

While it's true that many of the more liberal members left in the split, I think SF have gradually shifted further towards a neo liberalism type platform with window dressing of leftwing policies that they pay lip service to.

As I said, the matter was dealt with. Ejection is not the only means of party discipline is it?

Well perhaps you'll elaborate, how was the matter "dealt" with?

As I said the Assembly does not have fundraising powers, what would you have done?

Its always fascinating watching SF double think, the anti war party that'll happily scurry up to Hillsborough for a photo op with Bush, the anti bin tax party that votes for the tax, the socialist party that votes for privatisation.

See I just don't find a party that claims to have such socialist leanings yet consistently when they are is a position to demonstrate these policies they cave, and offer some limpwristed excuse.

Kaiser_Sma

Sinn Féin, any deniel that they are a political wing for a mainly criminal and facist orginisation is redundent considering they still sell IRA merchandise on their website! The audacity of it! At worst they support meaningless terrorism, at the very least they support orginized crime and drug trafficing.

http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/

Also every time i've ever come across their PR campaigners i have found them ignorant and insulting both to my nationality and my morality.

If what i'm saying seems incorrect to you i invite you to proove me wrong, i'd prefer to believe that such intollerance and support of criminals doesn't exsist in an advanced european democratic culture

Peter C

SF/IRA.

Hard to say if they are a politcal party, especially with their criminal activites

Cork

Sinn Fein -

Why their activity over 30 years.

NI needs partys like the SDLP to sell Irish unity.

SF/IRA only divided the people of NI.

they still sell IRA merchandise on their website! The audacity of it!

Let them. Profit magins must be high selling such items.

Time Magazine

FTA69 wrote:

I wouldn't term it unclear, I said Ireland, meaning the whole of Ireland. You know well I'm a Republican so what else would I mean?

The country described as the Republic of Ireland, in an act of parliament enacted by a democratically elected group under the Constitution that itself was ratified by the people. You know, the 26 counties. The country [the] Republic of Ireland does not exist, its name is Ireland.

You weren't unclear, you were clearly wrong.

Not necessarily, for instance we have roughly 10% of the vote in the south while the PDs have 2%, yet they have 8 seats and we have 5. We still get more votes than them though.

Actually you have roughly 9% of the vote and they have roughly 4%. You also ran candidates is many more constituencies where they did not compete for pragmatic reasons, therefore not making it a fair measure. In the "south", Labour have a fair higher vote than you. Wow, fourth largest party in a small country \o/.

Because Republicans and IRA ex-prisoners play a valuable role within Republican communities, ie defusing trouble at interface areas etc.

So the IRA are active?

Counting first preference votes in the two most recent elections in the north and south I believe.

Honey, SF were the only party to contest elections in the North that have representatives in the Republic. Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour - they don't contest elections in the North. It's not a fair measure.

It's not our "military wing", it its own organisation with its own command structure and membership, it makes its own decisions and is presided over by its own Council, Executive and is answerable to a General Army Convention of IRA Volunteers. That having been said we do have a link with them but by no means are we one and the same.

Then why did Gerry Adams make the announcement that they were disarming, you know, in the year 2005? And the phrase uttered by Martin McGuinness on Questions and Answers was a "special relationship". If Fine Gael had a "special relationship" with the UVF, would you apply such a lenient definition to one and the same? Would you think it would significantly deter your interest in voting for them?

And on a minor note, political decisions made by populations are often driven by economic factors. A primary reason for the lack of investment in Northern Ireland in the '70s and '80s was the continued acts of violence conducted by the IRA. This, as many economists point out, is the main reason why the North failed to have the economic boom the democratic heathens in the Republic achieved in the '90s and beyond. Thus assuming the removal of British subsidies - amounting to £5,000 per man, woman and child every year in the North - the North's GNI (National Income, to you) is approximately 25% less than the Republic's.

Now, I'm a nationalist. I look forward to the re-unification of the island. But I realise that even for the nationalists to agree to that - ne'er mind the unionists - we'd need to be able to offer them a reasonable economic deal. We can't. We simply cannot. We would have to lower their (and our) GNI which, in general, people don't like and thus don't vote for. So it's my assertion the IRA have hindered our ability to re-unify the island (oh, while murdering about three thousand people in the process) and that Sinn Féin continue to do so by not having reasonable policies that the remaining 91% of the population believe in.

So I repeat, I'd like to see Sinn Féin disappear.

Chakar

Ibid wrote:

So I repeat, I'd like to see Sinn Féin disappear

Them too.

FTA69

So basically SF is the 3rd largest party in Ireland if you don't count membership, TDs and the manner in which our votes are tallied.

AS I said countless times, Sinn Féin recieves more first preference votes in Ireland as a whole than Labour, therefore making us the third most popular party in the country. To reiterate myself, 350,000 people voted for us above anyone else.

Please explain how the IRA performs this specific situation. Give examples.

Republican ex-prisoners have a lot of respect in Republican communities owing to the sacrifices they made etc, for instance if Nationalist youths are pelting rocks over the interface areas it is often the case where Republicans would stop them provoking a Loyalist response. Ex POWs are also in contact with Loyalists on the other side of the interface and substantial networks have been built up to ensure that trouble doesn't kick off, however these structures often fail to work owing to some people refusing to work with us on the issue.

You admit SF have a relationship with a private paramilitary army, that’s good enough, now do you think it's acceptable for a political party to have a paramilitary wing?

As I said, its not a case of "wings", rather two organisations having a relationship. I find it ludicrous that people are always crowing at Sinn Féin to influence the IRA in one direction or another and at the same time telling us to cout off all links with them. If Sinn Féin didn't have a link with the IRA how could we have encouraged them to call a cease-fire, end the campaign and put weapons beyond use? You can't have it both ways.

While it's true that many of the more liberal members left in the split, I think SF have gradually shifted further towards a neo liberalism type platform with window dressing of leftwing policies that they pay lip service to.

Neo-liberalism? Like nationalising certain interests and raising taxes on the wealthy? Very neo-liberal alright... :rolleyes:

Well perhaps you'll elaborate, how was the matter "dealt" with?

I'm not the person to comment on internal matters on a public forum.

that'll happily scurry up to Hillsborough for a photo op with Bush,

We also meet with Tony Blair on a regular basis, and as you know he is also involved in the invasion of Iraq, perhaps we shouldn't talk to him either? Like it or not the Americans have a role to play in the peace process and we won't shy away from meeting anybody to advance that process. We don't cosy up to anybody either, people in America told us not to oppose the Iraq war, we did. They asked us not to visit Cuba, we did. If we have to meet Bush regarding the peace process that is what we will do, and some Socialist-Party style tripe isn't going to help that process move along. What would you have done in our position?

Diogenes

FTA69 wrote:

AS I said countless times, Sinn Féin recieves more first preference votes in Ireland as a whole than Labour, therefore making us the third most popular party in the country. To reiterate myself, 350,000 people voted for us above anyone else.

As you said about three times, and as mentioned thats a terrible yardstick to judge a party's size and popularity, it may make you feel better, but I think it's been scoffed and ridiculed enough already.

Republican ex-prisoners have a lot of respect in Republican communities owing to the sacrifices they made etc, for instance if Nationalist youths are pelting rocks over the interface areas it is often the case where Republicans would stop them provoking a Loyalist response. Ex POWs are also in contact with Loyalists on the other side of the interface and substantial networks have been built up to ensure that trouble doesn't kick off, however these structures often fail to work owing to some people refusing to work with us on the issue.

Gosh people refusing to work with terrorists setting up an informal unaccountable paramilitary police force, how very irrational of "some people".

As I said, its not a case of "wings", rather two organisations having a relationship. I find it ludicrous that people are always crowing at Sinn Féin to influence the IRA in one direction or another and at the same time telling us to cout off all links with them. If Sinn Féin didn't have a link with the IRA how could we have encouraged them to call a cease-fire, end the campaign and put weapons beyond use? You can't have it both ways.

Wow what a wonderful tangent you've wandered off in. Most of us are aware that the IRA and SF are intertwined to a far greater degree than they let on, and eumphemisms about refering to it as a "link"

Neo-liberalism? Like nationalising certain interests and raising taxes on the wealthy? Very neo-liberal alright... :rolleyes:

Again, it's all very well to crow on about SF's policies when they're out of power, when they do have a sniff of power they display a far different policy.

I'm not the person to comment on internal matters on a public forum.

:rolleyes: Reallt deserves that, so to be clear SF are an anti bin tax party however the only time they're in a position to do anything about it, they vote for it, but we're assured that this was an "mistake" by a "black sheep" and the matter has been "dealt with" in a manner that you refuse to elaborate on.

No really :rolleyes:

We also meet with Tony Blair on a regular basis, and as you know he is also involved in the invasion of Iraq, perhaps we shouldn't talk to him either? Like it or not the Americans have a role to play in the peace process and we won't shy away from meeting anybody to advance that process.

Please elaborate what role George Bush has played in the peace process. Giving examples and showing the rough work where appropriate.

We don't cosy up to anybody either, people in America told us not to oppose the Iraq war, we did. They asked us not to visit Cuba, we did. If we have to meet Bush regarding the peace process that is what we will do, and some Socialist-Party style tripe isn't going to help that process move along. What would you have done in our position?

People have also asked the IRA to disband and they've not done that, trying to claim that you're making a principled stand here is deeply ironic.

I cannot see any evidence that the northern irish peace process has been advanced by the current US administration, perhaps you can elaborate or is that another "internal party manner" that you "cannot comment on" on a public forum.

Do you have an offical role in SF that doesn't allow you to coment?

Jackie laughlin

Aidan,
George Lee a socialist?

Positive economics Vs Normative economics!

Students tell me - well, UCD students - that the orthodox neo-liberal line must be adopted. All other positions are ridiculed.

Perhaps I was wrong to use the term "Iconoclastic" when what I really meant was that in an open society there is an absolute requirement to challenge constantly the dominant orthodoxy.

FTA69,
What is your understanding of the term "republican"? I normally refer to SF/IRA, FF etc. as pseudo-republicans. Lately I've come to realise that they are anti-Irish too.

The answer to the twin problems of what is the IRA for and why do SF/IRA pretend to be socialist lies in their fascist nature and intent. The IRA is needed to impose their rule in deprived areas. Policy is secondary to rule: socialist in Ireland, while Catholic nationalist when fund raising inthe States.

FTA69

As you said about three times, and as mentioned thats a terrible yardstick to judge a party's size and popularity, it may make you feel better, but I think it's been scoffed and ridiculed enough already.

I really don't see why people have difficulty grasping the fact we get 350,000 first preference votes North and South, it might make you feel better though to insinuate we are a minor fringe party.

Gosh people refusing to work with terrorists setting up an informal unaccountable paramilitary police force, how very irrational of "some people".

Jesus give me strength, the interface issues were set up by Republican community activists who co-ordinate their project with Loyalist community workers on the other side of the interface, they worked with us succesfully for a number of years until they ceased contact with us over the Short Strand issue in 2002. We work with them in some areas eg Ardoyne but that is getting a bit strained again I hear. Neither is it a "police force", it is a group of people from the communities not wanting to see youngfellas generating conflict over a few stones being thrown over a wall.

Wow what a wonderful tangent you've wandered off in. Most of us are aware that the IRA and SF are intertwined to a far greater degree than they let on, and eumphemisms about refering to it as a "link"

It has struck me you are very much unaware of the machinations of the Republican Movement, hence the uninformed nonsense you are coming out with. I also have not gone off on a tangent, I am simply detailing how our relationship with the IRA has produced results throughout the course of the process, and I don't see how ending this relationship will make the slightest difference to anything.

Again, it's all very well to crow on about SF's policies when they're out of power, when they do have a sniff of power they display a far different policy.

Rather a pragmatic one, considering the Assembly had no fund-raising powers I find it hard to see how we could have funded social projects and rejected PPPs, perhaps we should have collapsed the Assembly?

Please elaborate what role George Bush has played in the peace process. Giving examples and showing the rough work where appropriate.

Its not a case of George Bush, just whoever happens to be in the White House. Clinton took a big interest in the process and American envoys have played a big part in the negotiations. It would simply be stupid to tell the yanks bog off because of the Iraq war, as I said, perhaps we should refuse to talk to Tony Blair as well becuase we disagree with him? The Americans are players and that is the fact of the matter.

Do you have an offical role in SF that doesn't allow you to coment?

I post in a personal capacity, but I bear in mind I am a party member and do not comment on internal matters in public.

FTA69

What is your understanding of the term "republican"?

A socially aware individual who seeks a 32 county Irish Republic. Although that is simply the Irish definition.

Lately I've come to realise that they are anti-Irish too.

I know, I can't stand the b*stards... :rolleyes:

The IRA is needed to impose their rule in deprived areas.

Do you live in one of these deprived areas? Or are you the type looking over your hedgerow into the estates and worrying about the menacing plebs? Republicanism is popular in these areas because one, we are actually from these estates and two, we actually work in them, hence why we recieve a massive consensual vote in secret ballots.

darkman2

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Aidan,
George Lee a socialist?

Positive economics Vs Normative economics!

Students tell me - well, UCD students - that the orthodox neo-liberal line must be adopted. All other positions are ridiculed.

Perhaps I was wrong to use the term "Iconoclastic" when what I really meant was that in an open society there is an absolute requirement to challenge constantly the dominant orthodoxy.

FTA69,
What is your understanding of the term "republican"? I normally refer to SF/IRA, FF etc. as pseudo-republicans. Lately I've come to realise that they are anti-Irish too.

The answer to the twin problems of what is the IRA for and why do SF/IRA pretend to be socialist lies in their fascist nature and intent. The IRA is needed to impose their rule in deprived areas. Policy is secondary to rule: socialist in Ireland, while Catholic nationalist when fund raising inthe States.

OMG you need to get a grip. How are FF, FG, PDs etc 'anti Irish'!

darkman2

FTA69 wrote:

AS I said countless times, Sinn Féin recieves more first preference votes in Ireland as a whole than Labour, therefore making us the third most popular party in the country. To reiterate myself, 350,000 people voted for us above anyone else.

SF will stay were all Loony hard left parties stay: In opposition. Would you mind telling us the count for SF votes in the Republic, forget about NI. Be honest....

DublinWriter

darkman2 wrote:

SF will stay were all Loony hard left parties stay: In opposition. Would you mind telling us the count for SF votes in the Republic, forget about NI. Be honest....

I'm no Shinner, but watch them carefully next year, personally I think they'll 'clean-up' in next year's general elections.

Jackie laughlin

There are two scenarios for SF/IRA progress. One is relatively benign and sees that now that they have been militarily defeated, accepted partition, want suits and office, they will merge into FF, with eventually Gerry Adams becoming president. Another scenario is that they will occupy the ground common in many European countries where their fascism will flourish. I think discontent will produce a significant rise in their Dail repreentation. I think they are grossly underestimated in terms of their ability, intentions and their danger to Irish democracy.

NO ONE will try to out-working-class me and win! FTA you are dealing with the real thing, not some poor unfortunate whom you can patronise with clientilist politics and win over with local IRA vigilantes who are portarayed as more effective than An Garda. I've had the late-night phone calls and other threats. They scared the bejasus out of me but that's all.

So, after all this killing a "Republican" wants a 32 county Ireland. That's what this has been about!!! I'm glad I decided not to die for Ireland!

Darkman,
I expressed myself poorly. I've been arguing the strength and merits of Irish culture, including its Gaelic, Anglo Irish and Hiberno English components. I find pseudo republicans to be an anti-Irish force in that they generally make no attempt to speak Irish, they reject our strong Anglo component, they are elitist and try to exclude components of Irish identity. Their Irishness is usually little more than "rebel" songs, being anti-English and anti-working class. (Incidentally, they tend to have a curious affinity with English as opposed to European soccer, while treating the Eircom league with disdain.)

FTA69

There are two scenarios for SF/IRA progress. One is relatively benign and sees that now that they have been militarily defeated, accepted partition, want suits and office, they will merge into FF, with eventually Gerry Adams becoming president.

Are you for real?

Another scenario is that they will occupy the ground common in many European countries where their fascism will flourish.

Please explain how we are a "fascist" party? Bear in mind that is the most over-used and hyperbolic term in todaly's political lexicon, normally it is those on the micro-left I find it interesting to have it applied to us in the same thread where someone called us "Marxist".

NO ONE will try to out-working-class me and win!

Eh? It isn't a competition. :rolleyes:

FTA you are dealing with the real thing, not some poor unfortunate whom you can patronise with clientilist politics

We don't practice middle-man politics at all, in fact our philosophy is one of community empowerment.

win over with local IRA vigilantes who are portarayed as more effective than An Garda.

First of all most people in deprived working class areas view the cops as worse than useless, secondly who are these "vigilantes" and where can they be found?

I've had the late-night phone calls and other threats. They scared the bejasus out of me but that's all.

What in the name of God are you on about?

So, after all this killing a "Republican" wants a 32 county Ireland. That's what this has been about!!! I'm glad I decided not to die for Ireland!

Nope, a nationalist would be content with a united Ireland. A Republicans seeks an egalitarian society as well. You'd know that if you read my original post.

Their Irishness is usually little more than "rebel" songs, being anti-English and anti-working class.

It seems you are refferring to bar-stool pub nationalists rather than Republicans.

Time Magazine

FTA69 wrote:

First of all most people in deprived working class areas view the cops as worse than useless, secondly who are these "vigilantes" and where can they be found?

Would you like to back this up? We have more faith in our police force than any other country in Europe.

And, as I so kindly went through msot of one of your posts and responded appropriately, would you mind reciprocating? Ta.

Sgt. Sensible

Ibid wrote:

Would you like to back this up? We have more faith in our police force than any other country in Europe.

Are you sure? Apart from one or two occasions when they were exceptional, I've found the gardai to be generally useless and bloody rude.

Sgt. Sensible

darkman2 wrote:

SF will stay were all Loony hard left parties stay: In opposition. Would you mind telling us the count for SF votes in the Republic, forget about NI. Be honest....

In reality, SF are about as hard left as New Labour.

FTA69

I'm not suggesting that people in deprived working class areas hate the cops, or are against the concept of policing, but I would say that most are annoyed with the fact they recieve a substandard policing service. I've lived in council areas my entire life, and I can say from experience that the police are rarely around when they are needed. I remember ringing them while a joyrider was driving in a green area at high speed, the police showed up 6 hours later, sometimes they don't even show up at all. I've often seen guards become very aggressive and aggravated in certain areas while on patrol which leads to them targeting youngfellas for no reason, and often slapping people around with little or no provocation.

This coupled with the fact that guards are not from the aforementioned areas, and very few of them are from similar walks of life often leads to people having a sense of alienation with the police.

Diogenes

FTA69 wrote:

I really don't see why people have difficulty grasping the fact we get 350,000 first preference votes North and South, it might make you feel better though to insinuate we are a minor fringe party.

It might make you feel better to claim the party is the third biggest party in Ireland using a yardstick that has no bearing in reality.

Jesus give me strength, the interface issues were set up by Republican community activists who co-ordinate their project with Loyalist community workers on the other side of the interface, they worked with us succesfully for a number of years until they ceased contact with us over the Short Strand issue in 2002. We work with them in some areas eg Ardoyne but that is getting a bit strained again I hear. Neither is it a "police force", it is a group of people from the communities not wanting to see youngfellas generating conflict over a few stones being thrown over a wall.

You might try and present them as some kind of cross community lollipop men, but to take as an example, what occured when the police first went in to question suspects in the Robert McCartney murder, and faced organised rioting, I'm sure your friends were just doing their damnest to stop those kiddies then.

It has struck me you are very much unaware of the machinations of the Republican Movement, hence the uninformed nonsense you are coming out with. I also have not gone off on a tangent, I am simply detailing how our relationship with the IRA has produced results throughout the course of the process, and I don't see how ending this relationship will make the slightest difference to anything.

Like I said it's the traditional behaviour of the IRA/SF mindset play up the link when its more convinent, downplay tit when it's not.

Rather a pragmatic one, considering the Assembly had no fund-raising powers I find it hard to see how we could have funded social projects and rejected PPPs, perhaps we should have collapsed the Assembly?

The assembly would have collasped if SF hadn't voted yes? The motion wouldn't have been carried?

Its not a case of George Bush, just whoever happens to be in the White House. Clinton took a big interest in the process and American envoys have played a big part in the negotiations.

But Bush didn't. Try to justify that you had to cozy up to Bush because of Clintons' success doesn't make a wit of sense.

It would simply be stupid to tell the yanks bog off because of the Iraq war, as I said, perhaps we should refuse to talk to Tony Blair as well becuase we disagree with him? The Americans are players and that is the fact of the matter.

Not really you've set to give an example of how these Americans are "players" Who's Bush's envoy to NI? What steps have the current administration taken towards peace in NI aside of snubbing Gerry for the Mc Cartney sisters? Bush can snub SF, SF cannot snub Bush?

And Blair is Bush's poodle? I think Bush's got Adams on a pretty tight leash as well.

I post in a personal capacity, but I bear in mind I am a party member and do not comment on internal matters in public.

So we just have to trust SF are an anti bin tax party and ignore their record, just assume they've taken care of any "aberration".

Oh and btw the Cuba angle? More laughable double standard. You ralled againist section 31 and the censorship of your "voice". You decried interiment without trial, and yet here you are cozying up to someone who censors opposition views, and interns his opposition without trial. Not to mentio for decades considered homosexuality a criminal offence and imprisoned without trial for decades under Castro, including forced hard labour.

DublinWriter

All foaming at the mouth aside, it's very interesting to note the similarities between SF as of now and Dev's FF when it took power in 1932 (?).

Dev was very much the Gerry Adams of his (early) time. When he and Frank Aitken inspected an army parade after first taking office in the early 1930's, the chief of the army said to his aide de camp "Do we salute him, or shoot him?".

Even during his first early tours when first taking office, there's the story of Dev touring some small town in Kerry where An Garda Síochána were lined up on one side of the street and the local IRA battalion were lined up on the other. Dev completely ignored the guards and proceeded to inspect the IRA men.

Years later, Dev would be the most ruthless in cracking down on IRA activity in the mid/late 30's.

Gerry Adams is nobodies fool, just like Dev, he's very much the political animal. Like the provos breaking off from the officials in the late 60's, were are going to witness the same phenomena with the RIRA ramping up activity as Adams continues to jettison the remaining PIRA paramilitary element within his party.

Given the passage of time, SF will eventually ‘sanitise’ itself by staying remote from terrorist acts and it’s history, just as both Fine Fail did.

Jackie laughlin

DublinWriter,
Your last sentence prompts a question: Then what will SF be, FF or fascist?


I don't use the term fascist lightly. I've explaimed many times why the term is appropriately applied to SF/IRA.

The British and Irish govts. bear a heavy responsibility for reviving the defeated SF/IRA while destroying the SDLP.

FTA69 as a member you are perfectly aware of the use of threats and actual violence.

The Gardai, as recent reports finally point out, are deeply flawed. In many areas they are useless. While it would be mad to suggest that police be recruited, say, by the operation of a quota from the working classes, they could be expected to understand the "culture" and avoid persecuting innocent youngsters. This vacuum has been exploited by SF/IRA who will soon begin asking that local community activists be recuited into the police. They regularly try this approach in the north. It's just old fashioned infiltration; they want their fascist thugs in police uniform.

Diogenes

FTA69 wrote:

This coupled with the fact that guards are not from the aforementioned areas, and very few of them are from similar walks of life often leads to people having a sense of alienation with the police.

Do you have facts and figures about the social background of Gardai recruits. Gardai don't get sent to their local area for logical reasons, and to suggest the that Garda are all middle class clueless to the facts of life man suggests you've have little contact with actual gardai.

Jackie laughlin

Sorry, Diogenes, but Gardai seem completely unable to grasp the possibility that a young Dubliner is most likely a model citizen. The antagonistic, rude harassment has been going on for decades. The Gardai need to become respectful and professional.

FTA69

It might make you feel better to claim the party is the third biggest party in Ireland using a yardstick that has no bearing in reality.

Its a yardstick that demonstrates we have a very large political mandate on this island.

Like I said it's the traditional behaviour of the IRA/SF mindset play up the link when its more convinent, downplay tit when it's not.

Not really, we state clearly we have a relationship with the IRA, we don't deny it or play it up; but we do mention the fact it has enabled the peace process to develop.

The assembly would have collasped if SF hadn't voted yes? The motion wouldn't have been carried?

Bear in mind we were in charge of the education ministry, and we had to make the decision to either work with PPPs or else tell the people they wouldn't be getting any schools. As I said countless times before, but what you can't seem to grasp, is the fact the Assembly has no fund raising powers and as such we were boxed into making a tough decision with very little options. It is fine to preach mantras about "right wing" from the sidelines, but again I ask what would you suggest Sinn Féin should have done?

But Bush didn't. Try to justify that you had to cozy up to Bush because of Clintons' success doesn't make a wit of sense.

Again you are failing to grasp a rudimentary point, Bush and Clinton have nothing to do with it, rather the fact the American administration has a part to play in the process. They were there when the GFA was negotiated and play a continued part owing to their role in the IMC, we may well disagree with that but it doesn't change the fact they are here and we often must deal with them.

Bush can snub SF, SF cannot snub Bush?

We could take the decision not to meet him, but we aren't in the business of exclusion.

I think Bush's got Adams on a pretty tight leash as well.

They asked us not to go to Cuba we did. They asked us not to support the Colombia 3, we did. They asked us not to meet Chavez, not to boycott the World Economic Forum, we did. We follow our own lead. I'll ask you the question you dodged earlier, would meeting Tony Blair about the peace process be hypocritical of us considering we oppose the Iraq war?

Oh and btw the Cuba angle? More laughable double standard. You ralled againist section 31 and the censorship of your "voice". You decried interiment without trial, and yet here you are cozying up to someone who censors opposition views, and interns his opposition without trial. Not to mentio for decades considered homosexuality a criminal offence and imprisoned without trial for decades under Castro, including forced hard labour.

Homophobia is more a symptom of Carribbean society rather than a Cuban government programme, the Revolution in Cuba has built a fantastic social system in the face of opposition from the world's most powerful country. Bear in mind there are less political prisoners in Cuba than there was in Ireland ten years ago. Perhaps Cuba should open up the state like Salvador Allende? I'm sure the Revolution would last very long then. :rolleyes:

I don't use the term fascist lightly. I've explaimed many times why the term is appropriately applied to SF/IRA.

Actually you haven't. Are Sinn Féin homophobic? Are we xenophobic? (Considering in my cumann alone we have a Kurd, a Scot, two English people and a fella from France). We also have members from Nigeria, the Congo, South Africa, the Cameroon, Sudan, Palestine, Greece, Albania and Australia.) Do we believe in a corporate state? Are we misogynistic? Are we religious? No, so please stop peddling such a nonsensical term.

FTA69 as a member you are perfectly aware of the use of threats and actual violence.

Not really no, all I know is that you were whinging and moaning about Late night phone calls and other such crap.

It's just old fashioned infiltration; they want their fascist thugs in police uniform.

Normally we're accused of hating the police! LOL.

Diogenes

FTA69 wrote:

Its a yardstick that demonstrates we have a very large political mandate on this island.

Again not really, look we're just going to have to agree to disagree, you are using a very poor yardstick to define the size of your "mandate"

Not really, we state clearly we have a relationship with the IRA, we don't deny it or play it up; but we do mention the fact it has enabled the peace process to develop.

:rolleyes: You speak for the IRA you just cannot infulence what they do or say.

Bear in mind we were in charge of the education ministry, and we had to make the decision to either work with PPPs or else tell the people they wouldn't be getting any schools. As I said countless times before, but what you can't seem to grasp, is the fact the Assembly has no fund raising powers and as such we were boxed into making a tough decision with very little options. It is fine to preach mantras about "right wing" from the sidelines, but again I ask what would you suggest Sinn Féin should have done?

Bleating on three or four times is not "countless" times. Again demanding what would I do is just laughable, I'm not in a position of power, SF instead of grasping power and clutching at it could have made a point of protest at PPP, instead they demostrate that their leftwing retoric is empty once they are in power.

Again you are failing to grasp a rudimentary point, Bush and Clinton have nothing to do with it, rather the fact the American administration has a part to play in the process.

Whoa whoa whoa hang on a few posts ago

FTA69 wrote:

Clinton took a big interest in the process

Now you're claiming he had nothing to do with it.

Please explain giving examples the role played by members of the Bush whitehouse in the peace process.

They were there when the GFA was negotiated and play a continued part owing to their role in the IMC, we may well disagree with that but it doesn't change the fact they are here and we often must deal with them.

Thats utterly facile. If the framework for peace is already in place why couldn't you protest the Iraq war by not turning up to Hillisborough?

See speeches and demos are cheap and easy and retoric is one thing, but when the chips are down and the decisions are made SF fall in line with big business and the superpowers. All that leftwing posturing is empty retoric.

We could take the decision not to meet him, but we aren't in the business of exclusion.

Oh god....... :rolleyes:

They asked us not to go to Cuba we did. They asked us not to support the Colombia 3, we did. They asked us not to meet Chavez, not to boycott the World Economic Forum, we did. We follow our own lead. I'll ask you the question you dodged earlier, would meeting Tony Blair about the peace process be hypocritical of us considering we oppose the Iraq war?

Well lets put in context is marching around Dublin and Belfast opposing the Iraq war and then a few days later going to Hillisborough where the final stages of the war were being planned, and the SF meeting was nothing but window dressing hyprocritcal. Absolutely.

Homophobia is more a symptom of Carribbean society rather than a Cuban government programme,

Ah so what the years of hard labour homosexuals were imprisoned for unders Castro was the Cuba people's fault and not the system that put them there?

the Revolution in Cuba has built a fantastic social system in the face of opposition from the world's most powerful country. Bear in mind there are less political prisoners in Cuba than there was in Ireland ten years ago.

See thats funny see in Ireland your "politcal prisoners" were armed terrorists.

In Cuba the political prisoners were in many cases simply people who voiced opposition to Castro.

You're playing fast and loose with your definitions of political prisoners

Furthermore as mentioned you demanded the release of all politcal prisoners and an end to section 41 for years, and I've noticed you've quietly ignored the politcal censorship that Castro inflicts.

It's the rank hyprocracy of SF that sickens me.