Villa Signings and General Rumours Thread

invincibleirish

£12m? are we in a time machine back to a month ago? i see on the grapevine that Liverpool are receiving 18m(£ or Euro?)for Alonso, Villa should expect all that, and then some more.

Advantage Villa.

IrishMike

invincibleirish wrote: »

£12m? are we in a time machine back to a month ago? i see on the grapevine that Liverpool are receiving 18m(£ or Euro?)for Alonso, Villa should expect all that, and then some more.

Advantage Villa.

Why on earth would villa expect to recieve £18+ m for barry?

invincibleirish

IrishMike wrote: »

Why on earth would villa expect to recieve £18+ m for barry?

1. Micheal Carrick & Owen Hargreaves.

2. Captain & contracted for 2 more years.

3. England regular & occasional captain.

Neil3030

He's captained England
He's scored for England
He's quality
He's at least twice the player the 10m rated Carson and 15m rated Crouch are :rolleyes:

Esse85

Surely after captaining his country and scoring his first goal for his country, this should add to the value of a any fee.

Benitez is blinded in the fact that last season he quoted Bellamy at £12m, he cost half that the season before and actually left for £8m. He quotes Carson at £10m, Crouch at £15m and Alonso at £15m. I think these players are worth half that. Maybe he thinks he's still living in Spain where they claim you can sign Johnny Foreigner once you activate his €80m buy out clause.

I hope the situation gets sorted out this week and fingers crossed he'll stay, if he doesnt, he's a hard man to replace but we'll deal with it, possibly give Laursen the captains armband.

Off topic id love to see Chelsea make a serious bid for Torres, leave it drag on for ages just to really p1ss the twats off.

invincibleirish

Esse85 wrote: »

Benitez is blinded in the fact that last season he quoted Bellamy at £12m, he cost half that the season before and actually left for £8m. He quotes Carson at £10m, Crouch at £15m and Alonso at £15m. I think these players are worth half that. Maybe he thinks he's still living in Spain where they claim you can sign Johnny Foreigner once you activate his €80m buy out clause.

Rafa Benitez obviously apporached the Barry situation with a degree of arrogance. By using various means like Stevie G & the Liverpool Echo he thought Villa would be a soft touch and that Villa would rollover after Barry became unsettled.

This hasnt happened, Villa retain the upperhand and their dignity, even if Barry goes, it'll be on MONs terms not Rafas.

IrishMike

invincibleirish wrote: »

Rafa Benitez obviously apporached the Barry situation with a degree of arrogance. By using various means like Stevie G & the Liverpool Echo he thought Villa would be a soft touch and that Villa would rollover after Barry became unsettled.

This hasnt happened, Villa retain the upperhand and their dignity, even if Barry goes, it'll be on MONs terms not Rafas.

If Barry goes it will be because he wants to go.
If he hands in a transfer request, which is what will happen if he doesnt get
what he wants, how will that be on MON's terms?
Villa will end up taking the £12-£15m for him, which is fair value.

zing

Esse85 wrote: »

Benitez is blinded in the fact that last season he quoted Bellamy at £12m, he cost half that the season before and actually left for £8m. He quotes Carson at £10m, Crouch at £15m and Alonso at £15m.

The fee for Carson was agreed last August when he went on loan - it would have been in the contract the two clubs signed and Villa must have considered it to be realistic at the time for them to have agreeed for it to be included in that agreement. If they don't want him now then that's fine but if they were to take up that option to buy then one can only assume that they'd be legally bound to pay whatever fee was agreed last August.

Your first example there (Bellamy) is - for me anyway - an indication as to what Rafa is trying to do with the valuation of Crouch in particular. Crouch (imo) will prob go somewhere in/around the 10m mark but by quoting 15m he's just trying to put off anyone who thinks they'd get him for significantly under the 10m mark.

Call it hypocritical if you want but it's really no different than say someone advertising their house or car for sale for a given price but fully expecting a would be purchaser to try and bargain and end up agreeing a sale price which is less than the asking price. But if you advertise too low there's no room to bargain unless you're prepared to accept less than whatever your selling is actually worth.

Neil3030

zing wrote: »

Call it hypocritical if you want but it's really no different than say someone advertising their house or car for sale for a given price but fully expecting a would be purchaser to try and bargain and end up agreeing a sale price which is less than the asking price. But if you advertise too low there's no room to bargain unless you're prepared to accept less than whatever your selling is actually worth.

That's all well and good if you do it (a) publicly with your own players, or (b) in private with another team's players. If you table a cheeky undervalued bid in public, devaluing another team's asset, it's condescending and arrogant. Simple as that.

JPA

Acorns is the New Sponsor. http://www.avfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~1322713,00.html

Villain

Great PR for the club giving Charity a free place on the shirt for next season. Well done Randy

Esse85

Zing - Making a derisory low bid in public, leaking the story to the press and getting your captain to state to the press how he'd love Barry to join him at Liverpool all are actions of a man with no class, morals or integrity. I was never more delighted when Drogba knocked Rafa out of the Champions league just days after Rafa bitched to the press about Drogba. Benitez is showing the signs of a man under pressure by having such cheap shots.

Mr Alan

Esse85 wrote: »

Zing - Making a derisory low bid in public

Even if the bid was low. Which it wasnt.

It was done in private.

MON made the bid public knowledge, why do Villa fans keep ignoring that fact?

Savman

Actually if memory serves it was the Liverpool Echo who broke the story and that which was the focus of MON's rant. We haven't ignored anything, in fact we've been listening intently to every word spoken on the Barry issue.

Perhaps Pool fans have been ignoring the actions and words of their own. First Rafa and then Gerrard, thankfully in football everything goes round in circles so when the same thing happens to you with Torres or Stevie G, don't expect much sympathy

Neil3030

As much as I'd love to positively interpret the charity sponsor, it's all just smart business. Barcelona pulled the exact same stunt with UNICEF - it basically allows an exclusivity deal for the clothing sponsor, i.e., no competing company on the front of the jersey. This allows a larger rate be charged to Nike (co-incidentally, the same brand as Barca), while the public sees it as an altruistic gesture.

It's all explained in Tom Humphrey's book: Foul Play, What's Wrong With Sport.

Savman

Neil3030 wrote: »

As much as I'd love to positively interpret the charity sponsor, it's all just smart business. Barcelona pulled the exact same stunt with UNICEF - it basically allows an exclusivity deal for the clothing sponsor, i.e., no competing company on the front of the jersey. This allows a larger rate be charged to Nike (co-incidentally, the same brand as Barca), while the public sees it as an altruistic gesture.

It's all explained in Tom Humphrey's book: Foul Play, What's Wrong With Sport.

Neil you are exhibit A in the case of how you can't please all the people all of the time. Seems like Randy is damned if he does and damned if he don't.

Conspiracy theories aside, this is a gesture befitting our club. It's nice to have nice owners dontcha think?:D

invincibleirish

Neil3030 wrote: »

As much as I'd love to positively interpret the charity sponsor, it's all just smart business. Barcelona pulled the exact same stunt with UNICEF - it basically allows an exclusivity deal for the clothing sponsor, i.e., no competing company on the front of the jersey. This allows a larger rate be charged to Nike (co-incidentally, the same brand as Barca), while the public sees it as an altruistic gesture.

It's all explained in Tom Humphrey's book: Foul Play, What's Wrong With Sport.

Why cant it both be smart business and a positive gesture? Villa instantly become a more postive brand with this move, the sheen of evil corporate America is lessened slightly by this gesture. It might not last forever, but its positive to see that the new regime are not all about the money and selling the clubs dignity. I hated the LDV vans days!(though having a crappy beer logo on your shirt is probably more tacky:pac:)

Savman

Carlsberg don't do premiership club takeovers....:pac::pac:

Bounty Hunter

everyone knows liverpools targets from Dossena & Barry to attempting to raid Valencia for most likely Silva unless Rafa surprises us (ive been surprised by Rafa recently). Yet can anyone name a player you know Villa have bid for or are expected to sign?

General Krulak wrote:

We have, in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, said NO to all offers made to date by Liverpool. The fact that we do not conduct our negotiations in the media may disappoint some of you but, as I have said MANY times, we believe that a professional Club does not conduct business thru the media. You may not like that answer but it is THE answer and bitching about it won't change that fact.

seems like Villa have turned down a number of approaches for Barry, so id say we have already passed the 12m mark.

Neil3030

Woah, woah, woah, woah, WOAH!!!

I think it's genius, money couldn't pay for the advertising this move will receive. It's already been applauded by chiefs in the FA, how many of next season’s jerseys will receive that kind of coverage?

Bounty Hunter

I think the acorn thing is a real touch of class too and hell if Nike wanna give us more money for giving a charity avertising then why not.

zing

Savman wrote: »

Actually if memory serves it was the Liverpool Echo who broke the story

I looked into this a few weeks back as best I could and as best as I could tell it did break in the Echo as you say. There's been claims that it broke in the b'ham press first but I couldn't find anything in any of the online editions earlier that TB's article in the Echo.

and that which was the focus of MON's rant. We haven't ignored anything, in fact we've been listening intently to every word spoken on the Barry issue.

Same here

Perhaps Pool fans have been ignoring the actions and words of their own. First Rafa and then Gerrard, thankfully in football everything goes round in circles so when the same thing happens to you with Torres or Stevie G, don't expect much sympathy

Whatever about what Gerrard said pretty much all I can remember seeing from Rafa is clarifications & counter clarifications over what MON was saying and vice versa.

As for Gerrard he really should learn to shut up at times. He was most likely being hounded for comment on it by the press following the England camp but regardless - he should have kept his mouth shut.

You're forgetting we've already been here recently with Gerrard when it looked like he was on his way to Chelsea. So I've every sympathy toward Barry (and Villa fans) over what's going on here - it's a huge decision for him to make. And also don't forget the allure of the 'bigger club' didn't work that time and the player stayed put.

invincibleirish

zing wrote: »

So I've every sympathy toward Barry (and Villa fans) over what's going on here - it's a huge decision for him to make. And also don't forget the allure of the 'bigger club' didn't work that time and the player stayed put.

And this is where hope springs eternal. Its been quiet officially for a while now, i guess this week Barry will be hearing out Villa after Gerrard working him over whist on England duty. Right now if he leaves i'll be gutted, but not as gutted as if he had left 3 years ago when it also seemed likely then, Villa needed him a lot more then they do now.

Neil3030

Savman wrote: »

Conspiracy theories aside, this is a gesture befitting our club. It's nice to have nice owners dontcha think?:D

It's not a conspiracy theory:

Fee from jersey-front sponsor + Fee from clothing sponsor < Goodwill from gesture + Fee from exclusive jersey sponsor

This year's balance sheet will prove it.

Mr Alan

Savman wrote: »

Actually if memory serves it was the Liverpool Echo who broke the story and that which was the focus of MON's rant

Tabloid Newspaper "The Liverpool Echo"?

Rafa doesnt work for the Echo, it can report on gossip or stories picked up around the club, but cannot break anything definatively.

Order of comments made publically;

-O'Neill breaks story slating Liverpool for an insulting offer
-Rafa responds to O'Neills public slating of him
-Gerrard tries to tempt his mate to a move, this can be deemed bad out, i agree
-Barry basically sums up wat we all know, he is waiting for the clubs to come to a decision, and "most probably" wants the move to happen.

In that order.

Savman

Listen I'll never get into a silly argument about stuff nobody really knows anything about, bar a few key players in this game. I can't say I know exactly what happened between Rafa & MON but I watched all of MON's interview's on the Villa site and he certainly didn't mince his words. Rafa has been unusually quiet in previous weeks, maybe that's his style but he didn't really refute what O Neill was saying publicly. Anyway he said she said won't make any difference, it looks like the player wants to move so good luck to him I say. £12-15m is good business even if he will be hard to replace.

I will still maintain it's not a great move for Barry all things considered but at this stage I think he just sees his name in lights and wants to give it a bash so noone can deny him that. Just be nice if he was a little more up front about it and it didnt drag but I'd say a resolution is coming soon either way. If MON gets him to stay, it would be a masterstroke and I will refuse to listen to any criticisms of the man :mad::D

Savman

Mr Alan wrote: »

Tabloid Newspaper "The Liverpool Echo"?

Rafa doesnt work for the Echo, it can report on gossip or stories picked up around the club, but cannot break anything definatively.

An offer is sent from Liverpool to the Midlands and is picked up by a Liverpool local, who do you think leaked that story?! All it takes is one small paper to run with it then word spreads round tinternet.
Anyway, dont really make any difference does it?

zing

Savman - happen you're possibly right about the bright lights thing.

If he stays I don't think it'd be fair to Barry himself to clasify it as a masterstroke by MON - it would be down to his love and respect for Villa. Or at least in an ideal world it should be that way. That seemed to be what brought Gerrard back from the brink anway.

Neil3030

Just looking at that quote in the Times again, and as much as I'd love Barry to stay, this is horse-sh|t:

“But Champions League football helps any player. You only have to look at the England squad to see the amount of players who get in the squad and start the games - the majority play in the Champions League. That's all about the decision that will have to be made. Liverpool are in the Champions League and Villa are trying to push for that. That's all part of my decision if a bid gets accepted.”

Unless I'm mistaken, Capello has selected Barry in every team since taking over, even giving him a run as a captain. Whatever about wanting to play in the CL for the sake of playing in the CL, but citing that merely as a booster to his national career is bollo><.

invincibleirish

It has been good fun riling the LFC thread with demands of £20M and reminding them that Liverpool & Rafa are not in fact god,but i do think he will go unless MON talks him out of it, if anyone one can do it he can. Ultimately i hope MON gets a good deal,but i dont think a good deal would include any of Liverpools player.


*EDIT* i say this to not troll or offend but to point out that Liverpool and/or Rafa that their behaviour with the Barry saga has not being conducted in a good manner. I have made that point in other threads.

Neil3030

It'll all depend on how the money get's spent I suppose. I can't remember who posted this originally, but SWP+Sidwell coming in with the cash we receive for Barry and we're doing well. But, say, Crouch and Milner? Not near as sweet a deal.

Savman

Neil you are correct about the Capello thing, Barry is getting the nod for England more than ever...as a Villa player. He Captained England and scored his first international goal....as a Villa player. Sorry, but it was MON's arrival at VP that convinced Barry to stay. Anybody can see that MON was instrumental in getting Barry back into the England fold. Barry is taking a huge chance here, especially when you look at Crouch whose England career is in jeopardy from Rafa's Rotation.

He would not be the first, nor the last player to leave behind adulation to jump on board the Top 4 bandwagon only to find himself frozen out and/or playing for the reserves by Christmas. Liverpool fans can argue all the trophy potential in the world, but they cannot dispute that Barry may only get to play a minor role in it. Maybe that won't be the case but I just can't see GB being the heartbeat of Liverpool, ever, while Gerrard is around. And, pray tell, if Liverpool get knocked out of the CL at the first hurdle, what then? Because it can actually happen y'know...

I think Barry is a class act and a part of me would genuinely hate to see him lose the status and form he waited years to achieve.

JPA

With regard to the post above, I think IF Barry does go he will play a big role at Liverpool.
They don't play 4-4-2. He's not competing with Gerrard for a place. They play 4-2-3-1. He'd be playing alongside Mascherano in the 2 in midfield with Gerrard playing in the centre of the supporting 3.
And with Alonso likely leaving, he'll be first choice in his role as the passing midfielder in the team. I suppose Lucas can play that role as well but Barry will definitely be first choice. (Unless he turns **** of course!)

Savman

JPA wrote: »

he'll be first choice

Rafa has whatnow? I often wonder when he's doing his teamsheets, is it just: Reina, Carragher, Gerrard, Torres and insert 7 random names here.

invincibleirish

Hopefully MON might remind Barry of the shenanigans at Liverpool at board level. Barry lived through the tumultous last years of Doug and knows how disruptive those kind of disputes can damage a club, Liverpool are prime contenders for all sorts of crises' in the coming months and years. In contrast the new found serentiy at VP will surely be on his mind at least a little?

Mr Alan

Savman wrote: »

Rafa has whatnow? I often wonder when he's doing his teamsheets, is it just: Reina, Carragher, Gerrard, Torres and insert 7 random names here.

Actually Rafa doesnt rotate nearly as much as the media like to make out.
and does it less than SAF.

Barry would play a LOT at Liverpool.

Bounty Hunter

Mr Alan wrote: »

Actually Rafa doesnt rotate nearly as much as the media like to make out.
and does it less than SAF.

Barry would play a LOT at Liverpool.

I actually agree with this and if Alonso were to leave it would be Barry beside Alonso just behing Gerrard in most games IMO.

IrishMike

invincibleirish wrote: »

Hopefully MON might remind Barry of the shenanigans at Liverpool at board level. Barry lived through the tumultous last years of Doug and knows how disruptive those kind of disputes can damage a club, Liverpool are prime contenders for all sorts of crises' in the coming months and years. In contrast the new found serentiy at VP will surely be on his mind at least a little?

Yes im sure that boardroom turmoil will be an issue versus the possibility of
playing CL football.

Villain

Well if Barry wants a season or two in the champions league then best of luck to him, but I don't honestly think Liverpool will much closer to the legue title than they did this year with Rafa in charge and well with the owners fighting with each other and the huge debt they have Liverpool could be under pressure to find money for top class players once the new stadium build gets going.

I know Alonso wouldn't come to Villa park but I'd take him in a straight swap in the morning, I like Barry and but I think he has played as well as he can with MON getting the best out of him and I honestly believe Alonso is a better player imo

invincibleirish

IrishMike wrote: »

Yes im sure that boardroom turmoil will be an issue versus the possibility of
playing CL football.

And why not? Villa are a settled club with ambition, Liverpool are seemingly in perennial trouble and whose long term future is up in the air, Barry knows there is a risk in going to Anfield, and im pretty sure MON will be very careful in reminding him why he should stay at VP and not go to Anfield, sure it looks likely he is gone ,but stranger things have happened as you well know.

Bounty Hunter

Barry is far more consistant in his perforances though while Alonso prob has more potential ability as he showed on a regular basis a few seasons ago.

Mr Alan

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Barry is far more consistant in his perforances though while Alonso prob has more potential ability as he showed on a regular basis a few seasons ago.

100% spot on.

Which is why i value them at roughly the same, considering Alonso is a couple of years younger than Barry afaik.

Talk is Alonso is gone to Juve for 13.5 million.

I think it'd be a good deal for both Villa and Liverpool if Barry came to us for roughly the same amount.

IrishMike

invincibleirish wrote: »

And why not? Villa are a settled club with ambition, Liverpool are seemingly in perennial trouble and whose long term future is up in the air, Barry knows there is a risk in going to Anfield, and im pretty sure MON will be very careful in reminding him why he should stay at VP and not go to Anfield, sure it looks likely he is gone ,but stranger things have happened as you well know.

.......
Right Lerner was owner this time last year when villa went and spent next to nothing yet again.
This summer there have been no big money noises made on the transfer front.
Perhaps Barry is getting disillusioned with playing for a team in the 2nd tier
of the premiership who are not matching his ambition?
Liverpool for all their "perennial trouble" are winning trophies and consistently
adding to their squad, villa are not.
Would you prefer to shoulder the risk of joining a club with boardroom
squabbles but who consistently win trophies against playing for a team
with a stable boardroom who one league cup in the past 12 years?
The term clutching at straws comes to mind.

Bounty Hunter

IrishMike wrote: »

.......
This summer there have been no big money noises made on the transfer front.

Villa dont make noises about Transfers almost everything is done behind closed doors and anything in the media is usually pure speculation.

Mr Alan

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

anything in the media is usually pure speculation.

except when its that bastion of truth, the Liverpool Echo :eek::eek:;)

IrishMike

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Villa dont make noises about Transfers almost everything is done behind closed doors and anything in the media is usually pure speculation.

Villas record signing is £9.5m paid 7 years ago for Angel.
There have been no noises about big money signings from Villa because they
dont do big money signings.
Then again neither do Arsenal but they have a different transfer strategy ie
pay 6-9m for exceptional youngsters and develop them.
Lack of ambition especially last summer when Lerner was there surely would
make a teams best players feel restless?
Either MON splashes the cash to move Villa up a level or else the likes of
Barry and eventually Young will leave as they will want CL football.

invincibleirish

IrishMike wrote: »

.......
Right Lerner was owner this time last year when villa went and spent next to nothing yet again.
This summer there have been no big money noises made on the transfer front.
Perhaps Barry is getting disillusioned with playing for a team in the 2nd tier
of the premiership who are not matching his ambition?
Liverpool for all their "perennial trouble" are winning trophies and consistently
adding to their squad, villa are not.
Would you prefer to shoulder the risk of joining a club with boardroom
squabbles but who consistently win trophies against playing for a team
with a stable boardroom who one league cup in the past 12 years?
The term clutching at straws comes to mind.

Again you are missing the context, Barry nearly left a few years ago when Villa were cannon fodder, only then he stayed because of MON & Randy Lerner arriving. 2 years later Villa have made leaps and bounds and now Villa are 6th and in Europe and he is back playing regularly for England. This isnt the black & white issue its made out to be, Barry knows there is a good thing happening at Villa, the question is whether he stays put or takes a chance at Liverpool. No one can really have a go at him for wanting to join Liverpool. But Barry is a professional and knows that if the clubs cant decide a fee then he is going nowhere. When Villa look around and examine similar transfers, the price is in the £15-20m bracket, Liverpool trying to thid on the cheap is just dragging this thing on and on.

IrishMike

invincibleirish wrote: »

Again you are missing the context, Barry nearly left a few years ago when Villa were cannon fodder, only then he stayed because of MON & Randy Lerner arriving. 2 years later Villa have made leaps and bounds and now Villa are 6th and in Europe and he is back playing regularly for England. This isnt the black & white issue its made out to be, Barry knows there is a good thing happening at Villa, the question is whether he stays put or takes a chance at Liverpool. No one can really have a go at him for wanting to join Liverpool. But Barry is a professional and knows that if the clubs cant decide a fee then he is going nowhere. When Villa look around and examine similar transfers, the price is in the £15-20m bracket, Liverpool trying to thid on the cheap is just dragging this thing on and on.

Barry is not a first choice England player, he is getting a chance and is
doing well but has Carrick and Hargreaves vying for the same position.
He has played 3 out of the last 4 games under Capello.
When he has played 12 of the last 15 games then he can be considered first choice.
Defoe has played 2 of the last 4, would you consider him close to first choice?

Oh and there have been NO recent transfers of players with a handful of England caps,
no CL experience and who are 27 years old.
His price cannot be as high as Carrick or Hargreaves for example.

Bounty Hunter

IrishMike wrote: »

Barry is not a first choice England player, he is getting a chance and is
doing well but has Carrick and Hargreaves vying for the same position.
He has played 3 out of the last 4 games under Capello.
When he has played 12 of the last 15 games then he can be considered first choice.
Defoe has played 2 of the last 4, would you consider him close to first choice?

Oh and there have been NO recent transfers of players with a handful of England caps,
no CL experience and who are 27 years old.
His price cannot be as high as Carrick or Hargreaves for example.

just being pedantic but he has played all 4 of englands last 4, just in one he was a sub and within a minute of coming on in that game he set-up a goal. He is a regular thus far in Capello's england.

IrishMike

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

just being pedantic but he has played all 4 of englands last 4, just in one he was a sub and within a minute of coming on in that game he set-up a goal. He is a regular thus far in Capello's england.

Apologies, he started 3 of the last 4 games
Peter Crouch has also played in all 4 of Capellos games in charge, but he is
a poor squad player who wouldnt make the villa team or so im told :pac: