Anti Semitism

elivsvonchiaing

rlogue wrote:

My own view is that criticism of the actions of the Israeli government and their defence forces is fair enough - however there are plenty who take it a step further and deny Israel the right to exist. Others think it's a state on wheels and think it can move lock stock and barrel to somewhere in the US mid west.

If Ireland has to be moved, can we shift it to somewhere between Greece and Italy in a nice warm spot on the Med? Can we shift the US and Canada around? It would be nice.

Israel must stay where it is. It is keeping workers making armourments in the mid-west in gainful employment for now:eek:

If Ireland has to be moved - I'm for Slovenia - there are apparently loads of horny-mental women there (Paolo Coelho)

Mods - do the honours to these two posts! Ta

banaman

Morlar wrote:

I think anti-semite would be against someone on the basis of their religon, like anti-christian, anti-catholic, not anti-nationality, anti-country.

No Anti-Semite is racism against those of the Semitic racial group, which as I understand it incliudes the Palestinians, among others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

muesli_offire

True, the meaning of some words have to be taken from sources like wikipedia, but terms like 'anti-semitic' have already acquired through usage the right of citizenship in the realm of debate, and an affected purism would be most inappropriate where it was the distinctive meaning which was of decisive importance

For example, recently on Boards someone was complaining about the misuse of the word 'decimate'. Unless you are a Roman there is no reason why the use of this word outside of the context of the military practice of killing ten people should bother you. Unless you are a Roman.

Húrin

Sleepy wrote:

I think largely the anti-semite card gets pulled out of an ignorance of the history of Israel and a lack of knowlege of the issues in the region tbh. The amount of people I know who can't tell the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semetism is staggering!

I agree that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism, but anti-Zionism is somewhat anti-Semitic, because it denys the Jewish people the right to self-determination.

InFront

Anti-Zionism in the Israel-Palestine context is not anti-semitic. People aren't saying 'you can't have a homeland anywhere and must remain dispersed', people are saying 'not here, it's taken', I think.

In that context, it's not anti semitic.

MiddleE

InFront wrote:

Anti-Zionism in the Israel-Palestine context is not anti-Semitic. People aren't saying 'you can't have a homeland anywhere and must remain dispersed', people are saying 'not here, it's taken', I think. In that context, it's not anti Semitic.

Yes.

If I believed that the Kurds should not have a homeland, does that make me anti-Kurd. Or pro-Kurd if I was in favour. Same for the Basques. So why not the same for the Jews. Why is it that it always has to be special or different for the Jews.

I neither like or dislike Kurds. How could I as I've never met one. Now if they were causing a lot of trouble in their neck of the woods and I could not get petrol let's say, then I might then dislike them. If they were fighting with their neighbours for 50 years then I might be rightly pissed off with them if it impacted on me.

The world does not owe the Kurds or the Basques anything. Similarly with the Jews, except in their mind set. Whether it's the 'chosen' people or what, they somehow expect different treatment. We should know from our own experience that when a society or part of gets used to the begging bowl mentality, then it's very hard to break the pattern. As they are not leeching off us here then I'm happy. America does itself no favour in being such a soft touch for no return and with no end in sight. Israel would not be bombing the Lebanon and its people to hell and back if it had to pay its way.

Anyway, I foresee more foreign business in Ireland as a sequel to Israel's loss to Hezbollah. Someone has to gain. Why not the peaceful Irish.:D

The Saint

There is one key difference between the Kurds, Basques and the Israeli Jews. The Basques and Kurds are the indigenous population of the land that they occupy whereas the majority of Israeli Jews are first or second generation immigrants from Europe and Russia who largely displaced the indegenous Arab Palestinian population.

Trode

MiddleE wrote:

Yes.

If I believed that the Kurds should not have a homeland, does that make me anti-Kurd. Or pro-Kurd if I was in favour. Same for the Basques. So why not the same for the Jews. Why is it that it always has to be special or different for the Jews.

I neither like or dislike Kurds. How could I as I've never met one. Now if they were causing a lot of trouble in their neck of the woods and I could not get petrol let's say, then I might then dislike them. If they were fighting with their neighbours for 50 years then I might be rightly pissed off with them if it impacted on me.

The world does not owe the Kurds or the Basques anything. Similarly with the Jews, except in their mind set. Whether it's the 'chosen' people or what, they somehow expect different treatment. We should know from our own experience that when a society or part of gets used to the begging bowl mentality, then it's very hard to break the pattern. As they are not leeching off us here then I'm happy. America does itself no favour in being such a soft touch for no return and with no end in sight. Israel would not be bombing the Lebanon and its people to hell and back if it had to pay its way.

Anyway, I foresee more foreign business in Ireland as a sequel to Israel's loss to Hezbollah. Someone has to gain. Why not the peaceful Irish.:D

See, this is a perfect example of what myself and others were saying earlier. Criticising Israel isn't in and of itself anti-semetic, but it is often a precusrsor to real anti-semetism, or a thin veil draped over it to make it seem acceptable or rational.

New_Departure06

Anti-semitism is hating Jews simply because they are Jews. It has nothing to do with criticism of Israel or individual Jews for their actions.

The Saint

New_Departure06 wrote:

Anti-semitism is hating Jews simply because they are Jews. It has nothing to do with criticism of Israel or individual Jews for their actions.

Yeah, I hate Woody Allen. Does that mean I'm anti-semitic? If it does then I'm an unashamed anti-semite. But I like Kiss. Then again I really really hate Barbara Streisand. This is getting awefully confusing.

Trode

New_Departure06 wrote:

Anti-semitism is hating Jews simply because they are Jews. It has nothing to do with criticism of Israel or individual Jews for their actions.

Nope, it's hating all Jews, period. If you hate them because of Israel or because they killed Jesus or because you think they're all thieves and liars, it's all the one.

New_Departure06

Trode wrote:

Nope, it's hating all Jews, period. If you hate them because of Israel or because they killed Jesus or because you think they're all thieves and liars, it's all the one.

Hating Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is not anti-semitic. To say otherwise is Political-Correctness (American style) gone mad.

MiddleE

The Saint wrote:

There is one key difference between the Kurds, Basques and the Israeli Jews. The Basques and Kurds are the indigenous population of the land that they occupy whereas the majority of Israeli Jews are first or second generation immigrants from Europe and Russia who largely displaced the indegenous Arab Palestinian population.

Dead right and only a Zionist could disagree with you.

Do you think they will even get to the point that I make about the Kurds and Basques before they would understand your totally valid point about being an indigenous population. New indigenous population definition - 20 years, 200 years, no 2,000 years. That's nearly half the life time of the earth!;) Another big lie!

Trode

New_Departure06 wrote:

Hating Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is not anti-semitic. To say otherwise is Political-Correctness (American style) gone mad.

No, but hating all Jews because of Israels treatment of the Palestinians is. See the difference?

New_Departure06

Trode wrote:

No, but hating all Jews because of Israels treatment of the Palestinians is. See the difference?

Right well I agree there.

The Corinthian

If one were to be a pedant, then anti-Semitism would include Arabs, as they too are a Semitic subgroup. Historically, however the term has always been exclusively relating to an ethnic or racial hatred or fear of Jews.

Where this comes from is a contentious issue. Much of it is as a result of the Pauline slant on the crucifixion that painted the Jews as culpable for the death of Jesus Christ so as to ingratiate Christianity with the Roman Empire. Martin Luther greatly added to this with his teachings during the reformation, which contributed greatly to the Germanic anti-Semitism.

Of course, this does not mean that anti-Semitism was a simply by-product of Christianity as they were already unpopular in ancient Rome, due to their rejection of Roman customs and generally rebellious nature. In the end, the Romans had enough of numerous rebellions in Judea and in 70 AD destroyed Jerusalem as well as introducing numerous Greco-roman colonies throughout Judea, which resulted in the semi-forceful emigration of the Jews from Judea known as the Jewish Diaspora - and yes, I know this is ironic in the modern context.

Another interesting contributions to anti-Semitism in Europe have been the level of assimilation. Were Jewish communities integrated better anti-Semitism tended to be marginal at best. The Jewish community in Italy was by the turn of the twentieth century very much integrated with Italian society, while in Russia this was far less so and the difference in anti-Semitism in these two societies reflect an indirect relationship between the two. It should be noted that Zionism has typically been strongest in countries with high levels of anti-Semitism, as a result Zionism made little impact in Italy before 1938 as most Italian Jews would have considered themselves Italian first (this is also still largely the case).

Also, it has been theorised that countries with higher levels of anti-Semitism were populated by more orthodox and conservative Jewish denominations that traditionally forbade any integration. If so, there’s probably a lesson there for modern Muslim immigration.

More recently, anti-Semitism is a catchall phrase - much like racism is in danger of becoming. It seems to have been debated to death in this thread so I won’t add to it further.

In conclusion, anti-Semitism is a chicken and egg conundrum that is difficult to solve. Gentile suspicion, racism and propaganda have been largely contributory to anti-Semitism, but so has Jewish rejection of integration within their host countries. Both factors have in turn fed each other and have left us with the legacy of anti-Semitism today.

New_Departure06

Of course, this does not mean that anti-Semitism was a simply by-product of Christianity as they were already unpopular in ancient Rome, due to their rejection of Roman customs and generally rebellious nature. In the end, the Romans had enough of numerous rebellions in Judea and in 70 AD destroyed Jerusalem as well as introducing numerous Greco-roman colonies throughout Judea, which resulted in the semi-forceful emigration of the Jews from Judea known as the Jewish Diaspora - and yes, I know this is ironic in the modern context.

Actually I think far more decisive factor in the departure of the Jews from Palestine was the suppression of the Bar Kokhba's Revolt in 132-5 by Hadrian, which sources claim resulted in 580,000 Jews being killed,540 fortified towns and 985 villages being destroyed. The majority of Jews supposedly were either killed, enslaved or left unlike the 70 AD revolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba%27s_revolt

MiddleE

New_Departure06 wrote:

Anti-Semitism is hating Jews simply because they are Jews. It has nothing to do with criticism of Israel or individual Jews for their actions.

Absolutely true, but no matter how many times to repeat this you will not be heard by certain Zionist apologists.

Absolutely true, but no matter how many times to repeat this you will not be understood by certain Zionist apologists.

In July 2006 the French Cour de Cassation or Supreme Court, citing the right to freedom of expression and the European Convention on Human Rights overturned an appeals court judgment which had earlier convicted Le Monde newspaper for "defamation on racial grounds" for a 2002 article criticising Israel.

The authors condemned the collective punishment of Palestinian civilians as "state terrorism" and pointed out the disproportion in military might and casualties between Israelis and Palestinians. That wasn't questioned in the case and so collective punishment as practiced by Israel is "state terrorism" officially legally.

It was the subsequent reduction of the phrase from "the Jews of Israel" to simply "the Jews" that was seized upon as evidence of defamation in the lawsuit by the Jewish group attempting to brow beat Europe in the same fashion as they are screwing the USA. Three cheers for 'old' Europe.

Mr Naïr described Mr Goldnadel as belonging to the Israeli extreme right.

"That such people confiscate Jewish identity to use it as a weapon against everyone who criticises Israel seems scandalous to me," he said. "It's intimidation . . . They hurt the Jewish people more than they help Israel."

The lawsuit against Le Monde and the three intellectuals is part of a pattern. Mr Goldnadel is appealing the last of three failed lawsuits against Daniel Mermet, a popular radio journalist who has reported sympathetically on the fate of the Palestinians.

Award-winning television journalist Charles Enderlin, who is Jewish, has come under intense pressure from pro-Israeli groups since he reported the death of 12-year-old Mohamed Al-Dara in 2000. Pascal Boniface, a leading political scientist, resigned from his position as head of international relations at the French Socialist Party after his criticism of Israel led to an uproar.

Victor Hugo: "The oppressed of yesterday are tomorrow's oppressors."

Then prime minister Ariel Sharon compromised Israel's chances of survival

"by believing he can ensure Israeli security through terror,"

they wrote. The Holocaust was used to justify colonisation, apartheid and confining Palestinians to ghettos.

The IRISH TIMES article although written in July, still reads fresh after the recent spat with Hezbollah.

Le MONDE

The Corinthian

New_Departure06 wrote:

Actually I think far more decisive factor in the departure of the Jews from Palestine was the suppression of the Bar Kokhba's Revolt in 132-5 by Hadrian, which sources claim resulted in 580,000 Jews being killed,540 fortified towns and 985 villages being destroyed. The majority of Jews supposedly were either killed, enslaved or left unlike the 70 AD revolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba%27s_revolt

Perhaps, either way if does indicate that there is more to the origins of anti-Semitism than the usual blame that is laid upon the door of Christianity.

MiddleE

The Jews of Iraq
by Naeim Giladi

In our previous Link, Israeli historian Ilan Pappe looked at the hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians whose lives were uprooted to make room for foreigners who would come to populate confiscated land. Most were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe. But over half a million other Jews came from Islamic lands. Zionist propagandists claim that Israel "rescued" these Jews from their anti-Jewish, Muslim neighbors. One of those "rescued" Jews - Naeim Giladi - knows otherwise.

In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor.

Anti-Semitic Zionists?

Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called " cruel Zionism." I write about it because I was part of it.

It was 1947 and I wasn't quite 18 when the Iraqi authorities caught me for smuggling young Iraqi Jews like myself out of Iraq, into Iran, and then on to the Promised Land of the soon-to-be established Israel. I was an Iraqi Jew in the Zionist underground.

Under the late Ottoman rule, for example, Jewish social and religious institutions, schools, and medical facilities flourished without outside interference, and Jews were prominent in government and business.

About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs.

Alexis de Tocqueville once observed that it is easier for the world to accept a simple lie than a complex truth. Certainly it has been easier for the world to accept the Zionist lie that Jews were evicted from Muslim lands because of anti-Semitism, and that Israelis, never the Arabs, were the pursuers of peace. The truth is far more discerning: bigger players on the world stage were pulling the strings.

Is this guy for real? It's all new to me. Where this came from, I don't know.

The Jews of Iraq
by Naeim Giladi

philologos

Anti-Semetism is used for when someone makes a comment that is in anyway critical of Israel these days anyway.

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote:

Anti-Semetism is used for when someone makes a comment that is in anyway critical of Israel these days anyway.

Again, must put up my hand and ask where are all these charges of anti-semitism that has so many in fear? I mean, I don't see many around here holding back on anti-Israel statements because of fear of being tarred as an anti-semite. In fact, I can't say I've seen that charge made at all, except in one case where the poster had made offending statements about Jewish people as opposed to Israel actions.

Akrasia

it's a much bigger problem in america where mcarthyism is alive and well in the media conglomorates.

I have no opinion on jewish people, someone's religion has nothing to do with whether i like them or not. I do however, despise zionism and the evangelical zealots who have no regard for the suffering their ideology is bringing to so many people.

I despise their lies and dishonesty when they claim they seek peace and a two state solution while they are busy setting up illegal settlements all around the west bank and gaza to steal the homes and water of palestinian people and subject them to incredibly oppressive security restrictions including imprisonment in their own homes during lengthly and frequent curfew periods.

Their goal is to annex all of 'judae and samaria' and then the rest of the promised land. If they say it isn't, they are lying.

Akrasia

This is an exerpt from a conversation with an entrenched U.K. based zionist

Akrasia said:
The Zionist settlers in the West bank are illegal under all international law, they are there to drive out the local population and steal their land.

What "local population"? Jordanian & Palestinian settlers who previously drove out the Jews?

It's sad if any *original* families of Judea & Samaria have uprooted because of this conflict. Compensation should be made. That said, I think Jews have every moral right to move there. Israeli Arabs too, if they want.

I wouldn't be surprised if the U.N. disagrees, but so what? They are a useless anachronism anyway and virulently anti-Israel. The value of their opinion decreases with every instance of their corruption that is exposed and every international **** up they create.

Israel is also to blame for the confusion surrounding Judea & Samaria. They should just declare the lands to be an official, ordinary part of Israel (with a sidenote saying that some of that land will be made available for a future Palestinian state, if the Palestinians ever permanently solve their terrorism problem).

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

it's a much bigger problem in america where mcarthyism is alive and well in the media conglomorates.

How big is this American problem. Can you tell me of any well known incident over there? Have people been imprisoned and had their careers stopped for expressing an opinion or exercising the right to associate? Who?

Or is using the term 'McCathyism' simply using one form of hysteria to argue against another form of hysteria?

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote:

How big is this American problem. Can you tell me of any well known incident over there? Have people been imprisoned and had their careers stopped for expressing an opinion or exercising the right to associate? Who?

Or is using the term 'McCathyism' simply using one form of hysteria to argue against another form of hysteria?

Well there are groups who are extremely active in America specifically to deflect all criticism of israel and to demonise those would speak out against Israeli crimes. These groups include the anti defamation league with a budget of more than 40 million dollers who go around to student protests accusing the organisers of anti sematism and who accused Ralf Nader of anti sematism because they claimed he said Bush and Blair were puppets of the Israeli government,

The ADF is only one of many zionist lobby groups who make it their business to discourage any negative commentary in the U.S. Media.
These lobbiests are the reason you never hear the words 'Illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank" anywhere in the U.S. media, instead you are told of 'israeli Neighbourhoods" which are under attack by Palestinian "extremists"

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Well there are groups who are extremely active in America specifically to deflect all criticism of israel and to demonise those would speak out against Israeli crimes. These groups include the anti defamation league with a budget of more than 40 million dollers who go around to student protests accusing the organisers of anti sematism and who accused Ralf Nader of anti sematism because they claimed he said Bush and Blair were puppets of the Israeli government,

You give a whole post about the ADF and completely ignore the work they have done targetting far right groups, militias, the Klan etc. You also completely fail to back up your thesis that somehow they have the media in their grip. I understand that they have overstepped the mark once or twice in the zeal with which they pursue an issue and have been taken to task by the Courts over there. Not the same as suggesting they have the media world in their pocket. They are an interest group, much like the NAACP and other bodies, there is nothing beyond paranoia to suggest that they control public opinion.

GreenDoor

Akrasia wrote:

Well there are groups who are extremely active in America specifically to deflect all criticism of israel and to demonise those would speak out against Israeli crimes. These groups include the anti defamation league with a budget of more than 40 million dollers who go around to student protests accusing the organisers of anti sematism and who accused Ralf Nader of anti sematism because they claimed he said Bush and Blair were puppets of the Israeli government,

They write into Irish papers among others. Every day look in the letters section and you'll see letters from Jewish people from new york to haifia. Are Irish papers that popular. No. The jewish lobby groups monitor foreign media as well as controlling the USA.

The Corinthian

This might be relevant to the discussion at this point.

Trode

The Corinthian wrote:

This might be relevant to the discussion at this point.

That's hardly controlling the media. It's online activism, not much worse than posting links to polls or online petitions.

And again, it's a confusion of anti-semitism and anti-Israelism from the opposite angle people here seem to be claiming.