Anti Semitism

metrovelvet

Yes well when you see three enormous synagogues on Wilshire Blvd in LA you have to wonder. You dont see mosques. You dont see cathedrals. You see expensive real estate and synagogues.

And the media center NYCs nickname is Jew York City and Hymietown. And these are Jews who call it that.

The Corinthian

Trode wrote:

That's hardly controlling the media. It's online activism, not much worse than posting links to polls or online petitions.

I never suggested it was meant to control the media, although it is clearly meant to influence and is, as was suggested, a means to monitor it.

And again, it's a confusion of anti-semitism and anti-Israelism from the opposite angle people here seem to be claiming.

That’s true, although in fairness it is Israel itself that instigates much of that confusion.

Trode

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes well when you see three enormous synagogues on Wilshire Blvd in LA you have to wonder. You dont see mosques. You dont see cathedrals. You see expensive real estate and synagogues.

And the media center NYCs nickname is Jew York City and Hymietown. And these are Jews who call it that.

What does it make you wonder? Please enlighten me, I'd dying to know.

metrovelvet

It just makes you wonder. I cant quite articulate it yet. I'll let you know when I do.

BTW - If anyone would like to send a message and a chocolate bar to an Isreali soldier you can do that here.
http://www.hasadvantage.com/dayafter.asp?gid=friend

Trode

The Corinthian wrote:

That’s true, although in fairness it is Israel itself that instigates much of that confusion.

Possibly true, but the whole point is that you can't hold a group responsible for the misdeeds of a few, even if that few claim to speak for the group.
What I meant was, while most people here are complaining that the accusation of anti-semitism is used as a defence of Israel, you (and others) appear to be using criticism of Israel as a defence of anti-semitism. I'm not insinuating that you're anti-semetic, or have said anything of that nature, btw.

metrovelvet

Trode wrote:

Possibly true, but the whole point is that you can't hold a group responsible for the misdeeds of a few, even if that few claim to speak for the group.
.

Exaclty. And that is exaclty what scapegoating is and has been at the roots of anti-semitism. The Jewish population of Germany pre WW2 was at about 550,000 - thats less than 1% of the total at the time.

even if that few claim to speak for the group.

But if that group doesnt do something to get them to shut up with these claims then its inevitable that their silence will be read as consent.

Trode

metrovelvet wrote:

Exaclty. And that is exaclty what scapegoating is and has been at the roots of anti-semitism. The Jewish population of Germany pre WW2 was at about 550,000 - thats less than 1% of the total at the time.

Uh, what? Are you blaming the Jewish victims of Nazi Germany for anti-semetism?

metrovelvet wrote:

even if that few claim to speak for the group.

But if that group doesnt do something to get them to shut up with these claims then its inevitable that their silence will be read as consent.

That's an interesting philosophy. Lets see where it takes us.
All white people support Bush, because, hey, he claims to speak for 'the west', and obviously nobodies been able to get him to shut up.
All Irish people(even the ones in other countreies) support Fianna Fail, yet paradoxically all Irish republicans support Sinn Fein. Hmm, troubling.
All Muslims support Al-Qaeda. They're still claiming to represent all Muslims, so enough must not have been done to shut them up.
Naturally, this means the population of Lebanon cannot be Muslims, seen as their all too busy supporting Hezbollah, who still claim to represent all of them.

metrovelvet

Well, you hear plenty of people speaking out against the Bush administration.

And as far as I know there are plenty of Lebanese who speak out against Hezbollah.

As for you other examples, I am unaware.

Uh, what? Are you blaming the Jewish victims of Nazi Germany for anti-semetism?

Uh no. Uh I was pointing out the irrationalism of scapegoating a consituency that takes up 1% of your population for all your social/economic problems. Uh get it now? uh?

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes well when you see three enormous synagogues on Wilshire Blvd in LA you have to wonder. You dont see mosques. You dont see cathedrals. You see expensive real estate and synagogues.

But...if you REALLY would like to see mosques, there are plenty of countries in the world that can oblige. As for Churches, try a day in Paris or someplace. I guess France is in the grip of the Catholic Church and they control the media and minds...

Trode

metrovelvet wrote:

Well, you hear plenty of people speaking out against the Bush administration.

And as far as I know there are plenty of Lebanese who speak out against Hezbollah.

As for you other examples, I am unaware.

There are Jews who criticise Israel.
Doesn't stop the claims.
And for the record, plenty of Muslims oppose Al-Qaeda.
Plenty of Irish people don't agree with FF policy.

metrovelvet wrote:

Uh no. Uh I was pointing out the irrationalism of scapegoating a consituency that takes up 1% of your population for all your social/economic problems. Uh get it now? uh?

Aw, you almost had an adult discourse going there. Better luck next time.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote:

But...if you REALLY would like to see mosques, there are plenty of countries in the world that can oblige. As for Churches, try a day in Paris or someplace. I guess France is in the grip of the Catholic Church and they control the media and minds...

Neh, I believe that would be the Irish Republic.

sovtek

I remember a doccy a few years ago, on C4 I believe, by Jon Ronson.
It had something to do with some ex-presenter (British, can't remember his name) starting a movement that beleived that the world was run by lizards. He was often accused of being anti-Semetic (and I beleive he might have been, certainly some of his followers were).
Ronson followed him on tours through America and showed how influential the ADL is in the American and even Canadian media.
Many of his radio interviews were cancelled by the station after the ADL threatened them and Ronson even went to an ADL meeting to discuss wether he was actually anti-Semetic. Ronson was kicked out when he suggested that possibly he wasn't anti-Semetic...as in it wasn't up for discussion.

metrovelvet

Trode wrote:

Aw, you almost had an adult discourse going there. Better luck next time.

Oh I was just taking your lead. It's important to meet people at their level. Next time I'll bring the crayons and draw you a pie chart. I had thought that maybe you had learned about fractions and percentages by now.

sovtek

metrovelvet wrote:

Well, you hear plenty of people speaking out against the Bush administration.

And as far as I know there are plenty of Lebanese who speak out against Hezbollah.

As for you other examples, I am unaware.

Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery are Jews who speak out against Israel.
There are also peace groups in Israel that speak against the government like Bt'Selem (spelling?).

The Corinthian

sovtek wrote:

It had something to do with some ex-presenter (British, can't remember his name) starting a movement that beleived that the world was run by lizards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
http://www.davidicke.com/

metrovelvet

sovtek wrote:

Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery are Jews who speak out against Israel.
There are also peace groups in Israel that speak against the government like Bt'Selem (spelling?).

Thanks for pointing that out. I see a lot of protesting against Isreal here in NYC but I have no idea what constituency of people they are. There are so many people shouting about things its impossible to keep track.

oscarBravo

metrovelvet wrote:

Oh I was just taking your lead. It's important to meet people at their level. Next time I'll bring the crayons and draw you a pie chart. I had thought that maybe you had learned about fractions and percentages by now.

Banned for a week, as is Trode for the dig that led to this retaliation.

bomb_thrower

The most worrying thing these days is actually not anti-Semitism. The entire mainstream media bends over backwards to appease Israel and its Zionist apologists. Watching the rather pro-Israel coverage of the Lebanon crisis confirmed this yet again. The media in Ireland and abroad will never publish items that criticise Jews or for example, even question Israel's right to exist. The Iranians have held conferences debating whether the holocaust even occurred and have had international artists publishing cartoons that questioned the holocaust, etc. We hardly ever see these events/cartoons mentioned or published in the western media. Yet it was this same supposedly 'free speech loving' press that gleefully published the cartoons that were deeply offensive to Muslims and who also then condemned the Muslim reaction.

No, don't be stupid, it's not anti-Semitism thats the problem, it's anti-Islamic feelings that are the far more dangerous phenomenon in Ireland. The wealthy, influential middle-age former hippy, €1 million house-in-the-burb owning types are getting horribly right wing and blaming their insecurities / fears on a pretty defenceless minority, 'the Muslims' (in '38 it was 'the Jews').......cough cough new Nazis cough cough. Meanwhile the younger, powerless generation (as usual) are pretty much aware of who the real fascists are (the Israeli/Brit/Yank regimes).

I wouldn't be surprised in 25 years time to see my generation blaming all our insecurities on another defenceless minority.....hmmmm, who's it going to be? I reckon it's going to be 'the immigrants', who the middle-aged middle classes are currently in love with. Not that I have any problems with the current immigrants. just making the point that the power-wielders eventually become so irrational and paranoid in their comfortable world that they crave a scapegoat for their invisible problems.

bomb_thrower

bomb_thrower wrote:

The most worrying thing these days is actually not anti-Semitism. The entire mainstream media bends over backwards to appease Israel and its Zionist apologists. Watching the rather pro-Israel coverage of the Lebanon crisis confirmed this yet again. The media in Ireland and abroad will never publish items that criticise Jews or for example, even question Israel's right to exist.

I think the exact opposite, the media in Ireland is almost an official mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause. Any time Israel do anything wrong, we get distressing photos of Palestinian children cowering in rubble. I can't think of the last time I saw photos of victims of rocket attacks in Haifa. The ultimate was the interview RTE did with children, the 'neutral' reporter showed Palestinian children crying for peace, whereas the only interview of Jewish children broadcast had them saying they wanted the war to go on. It was disgraceful.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote:

I think the exact opposite, the media in Ireland is almost an official mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause. Any time Israel do anything wrong, we get distressing photos of Palestinian children cowering in rubble. I can't think of the last time I saw photos of victims of rocket attacks in Haifa. The ultimate was the interview RTE did with children, the 'neutral' reporter showed Palestinian children crying for peace, whereas the only interview of Jewish children broadcast had them saying they wanted the war to go on. It was disgraceful.

that's demonstrably not true.
One basic fact shows this very simply. How often have we seen quotes and interviews from Olmert or other Israeli leaders appear in Irish and international press compared with uneditorialised quotes and views from the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other political groups who are currently in conflict with Israel? The answer is simple, the media routinely gets the views of the israelis about anything that affects them, but we only ever hear soundbytes from the other side, and usually those soundbytes make them appear beligerant, aggressive, and unreasonable. Israel always has an opportunity to defend it's actions in public, that courtesy is not extended to the other side.
Then there is the one sided reporting of the events in the middle east
Palestinians are killed and wounded by israeli actions almost every single day but we hardly ever hear about any of these incidents over here. We only hear when multiple deaths occur, like when the Israelis shoot missiles into streets to 'assasinate' alleged Hamas leaders. In contrast, every single jewish death from violence is reported around the world, every time a soldier is killed it makes the news, and if there is a suicide bombing or a death from a rocket attack, it is often on the front page of newspapers here.

The victims of the rocket attacks in Haifa had a huge amount of news coverage during the lebanon war. It might seem like there was more coverage of Lebanese deaths and suffering, but that is probably because it is much more memorable to see complete destruction of entire towns and villages and the scale of the damage in lebanon was many times greater than the damage sustained by Israel.

Your reference to RTE's report decries a lack of balance because it didn't show both sides saying the same thing, but the difference between Lebanon and Israel in the recent conflict is, that The lebanese people, and the lebanese government, and Hezbollah leaders and supporters, almost unanimouslty wanted an end to the war ASAP, while a majority of israelis supported the war (at least they supported the war rhetoric of their government).

rlogue

RTÉ are unashamedly biased in favour of the Palestinians over the Israelis. That's a fact.

The Corinthian

The (Western) European media tends to be pro-Palestinian, often unashamedly (e.g. RTÉ), however the US media will tend to be pro-Israeli, often unashamedly too (e.g. Fox News).

Everyone happy with this argumentative compromise?

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote:

I think the exact opposite, the media in Ireland is almost an official mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause.

Yep. They do seem pretty pro-palestinian.

Deleted User wrote:

Any time Israel do anything wrong, we get distressing photos of Palestinian children cowering in rubble.

Shocking I say! They should have the decency to cower in media silence and not have their suffering milked by the likes of RTE...

Deleted User wrote:

The ultimate was the interview RTE did with children, the 'neutral' reporter showed Palestinian children crying for peace, whereas the only interview of Jewish children broadcast had them saying they wanted the war to go on.

Didn't see this - but wouldn't those Israeli kids be just echoing the views of the adults - who most certainly did want the war to go on are are now disgusted that their Glorious Army on which they and the Americans lavish so much money and toys didn't win them a depopulated Northern buffer-zone and a fatter Hezbollah kill ratio before the fighting stopped.

Deleted User wrote:

It was disgraceful.

True. Very sad to see hatred being passed down to the next generation, isn't it?

Akrasia

rlogue wrote:

RTÉ are unashamedly biased in favour of the Palestinians over the Israelis. That's a fact.

no it's not.
Not unless you can back it up with strong evidence and refute all the counter points

Akrasia

The Corinthian wrote:

The (Western) European media tends to be pro-Palestinian, often unashamedly (e.g. RTÉ), however the US media will tend to be pro-Israeli, often unashamedly too (e.g. Fox News).

Everyone happy with this argumentative compromise?

nope. If the western media was pro palestine, then we should all be sick of hearing that an average of 8 palestinians die every day through violence from Israel, and we should all be aware that, in one single example, 3 palestinians were killed and a whole family wounded on the 2nd of september in Beit Hanoun on the gaza strip. This incident was reported as 'an exchange of fire' by RTE who quote an 'Army Spokesperson' from the IDF, but never bother azsking anyone from Gaza or from the Palestinian government.

In the second incident, the Israeli army said it had shot a man south of the Kisufim border crossing in central Gaza overnight.

They said the man looked like he intended to infiltrate Israel. Palestinian medics recovered the body.

Of course, the fact that RTE reported this incident at all is just another example of how unashamedly pro palestine RTE is.

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote:

Shocking I say! They should have the decency to cower in media silence and not have their suffering milked by the likes of RTE...

Bet they had to cut a lot of shots of kids with slingshots to get the cowering one though.

RTE and the Irish media were anti-Serb in the Balkan conflict, anti-Serb again on the Kosovo issue, are anti-Israel in the current crisis...maybe there is something in our psyche to root for the underdog.

bonkey

Deleted User wrote:

Bet they had to cut a lot of shots of kids with slingshots to get the cowering one though.

Naturally, if they showed the kids with slingshots, they'd have to show the IDF forces said kids were typically using the slingshots on (tanks and the like) and there'd be again cries of bias.

maybe there is something in our psyche to root for the underdog.

Indeed. Thats why our national media were celebrating Al Qaeda on September 11th 2001. Surely you didn't miss it?

<edit>
Personally, I'm mostly of the option that the notion that media should be "balanced" rather than "fair" is at the root of all of this.
</edit>

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

Indeed. Thats why our national media were celebrating Al Qaeda on September 11th 2001. Surely you didn't miss it?

Were the fundamentalist terrorists using a plane as a flying bomb really the underdogs against all those bankers and cleaning staff and secretaries in the Twin Towers? Never saw it like that myself.

Take your point about the 'balanced' 'fair' distinction. I believe RTE and the Irish media are both unbalanced and unfair in their portrayal of Israel as the agressor always and airbrushing the sins of the Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah etc.

Blue37

Deleted User wrote:

Take your point about the 'balanced' 'fair' distinction. I believe RTE and the Irish media are both unbalanced and unfair in their portrayal of Israel as the agressor always and airbrushing the sins of the Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah etc.

Name me a recent conflict in the region where Israel wasn't the aggressor

Akrasia

Blue37 wrote:

Name me a recent conflict in the region where Israel wasn't the aggressor

An israeli would say 'the last one'