Over 80 Mowag personel carriers procured, whats next?

AbusesToilets

I would think that given Irelands small size,perhaps an investment in some viable multi-role helos would be a good option.Give the Air Corps something useful to fly?
As for a light machinegun for squads,i'd veer away from the SAW.From personal experience it's not a very reliable or well desiegned weapon,and there better alternatives out there.
This is one of the best i've ever shot,and is being considered by the USMC:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100
This is also due for adoption by SOF forces:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_48_Mod_0

punchdrunk

eh that second one you linked to is just a modified SAW?

AbusesToilets

Yeah i know,but they've "upgraded" it somewhat,with titainium parts to increase it's ruggedness.I dont know if they have specifically addressed some of the SAWs design flaws ie. the cotter pin holding the gas tube,weak ejector etc. But from what i've been told talking to some who're more in the know than me about it,they seem fairly happy with it.
IMO i think the Ultimax is a much better gun altogether

Clare gunner

As a tanker, I actually disagree with him on the operational/tactical side. I think MBTs can have a very arguable purpose in Ireland, both for domestic defense and foreign (UN etc) operations. For example, Farmer Bob's tractor sinking in the field doesn't really say very much about tankability when his 1.5-ton tractor's exerting about a 30PSI ground pressure footprint vs 15PSI for the heaviest 70-ton M1 Abrams variant. (Figures found after a little Googling). Bridges would be another issue, but how many of Ireland's rivers aren't fordable? Bowling-green 4km ranges such as the desert are not going to happen, obviously, but most modern tanks were designed for Germany which is kindof obstructed as well.

Manic,not trying to talk down a "pro" but I have two German relatives who are tankers too.My cousin is a gunner and my second uncle is a tank commander of a squadron[?]or whatever you call a detachment of 4to6 MBTs or in this case Leo 2s.Both of them have looked at Ireland and have said they would NOT like to bring a tank onto our terrain.You mention one very important feature here about our rivers most of them are deep [ over 6meters] and steep banks,plus some of our strategic bridges are not exactly built for MBTs not to mind modern day trucks.Two 40ft trucks can block them quite nicely,and these are not huge American rigs,so what an M1a1 would do would be intresting.Not to mind alot of our secondary roads have bridges&culverts that have weight restrictions of 20 tons appx.
Noit to mind I have personaly stuck a small Catipillar dozer on what I thought was dry field,in a wet summer,and that was only a ten tonner.It was a blanket bog.
Indeed Germany is obstructed as well,but in comparison to the Irish countryside it is not made up of small fields with ditches and hedges,interspaced with bogs,rocks,swampy fields etc. Rather prarie style fields with forests and village clusters.Most importantly ,it has an exellent road infrastructure from autobahn to landwege[country tracks] which are capable of handling heavy traffic,up to tanks.
.Not surprising,considering if the Warsaw Pact were going to come over in the opening moves of ww3.Germany was going to be the battleground,so it was vital to have good road structure to move armour quickly,or demolish it even quicker as strategic roads,were already pre drilled for demolition charge emplacement.Even the roads are sign posted for the speeds of convoys,you know the signs?Sillouthe[sic] of a tank and to opposite facing arrows with a speed number?So to try and compare Germany and Ireland is comparing apples and pears.
Also,what role could you see MBTs playing in Ireland???By rights the Irish forces are set up to defend the Irish state from internal aggression and uprising.Secondary is UN peace keepinng.We are not really expecting anyone to invade us,and if they were ,we are not much of a match for them.Stratgey would be back to gureilla warfare.So tank destroying capability iNMHO would be more important than tanks.
Sure the best thing to kill a tank is another tank.But if you aint got one then??Hole it.trap it,burn it.Or a combo of those is still ASFIK the next best thing to kill tanks??
I am sure you have read the Winter War,about the Russian invasion of Finland in 1939/40? And how the totally underequipped Finnish army actually stalled and eventually destroyed the vastly superior Sov invasion force.By basically using the terrain,and isolating the armour from it's infantry support.I personally think there is still alot of tactical lessons that could be employed in Ireland from that campain today ,if need be.
Your thoughts???

Manic Moran

Clare gunner wrote:

Manic,not trying to talk down a "pro" but I have two German relatives who are tankers too.My cousin is a gunner and my second uncle is a tank commander of a squadron[?]or whatever you call a detachment of 4to6 MBTs or in this case Leo 2s.

Platoon/UK Troop. Number of tanks commanded doesn't automatically make one correct, mind. FWIW, I've got 14 M1A1s (A company/UK Squadron), plus 4 more just attached. (Just to make things more confusing, an American troop is a UK/Irish Squadron, and an American Squadron is a UK/Irish Regiment)

Both of them have looked at Ireland and have said they would NOT like to bring a tank onto our terrain.

Something I've noticed about us tankers is that there's a great range of 'courageousness' over what we're willing to try, and what we're not. My old platoon sergeant was mad, and would try taking his tank anywhere. Take, for example the commentary by the gunner/cameraman on my PSG's wing tank on my PSG's willingness to attempt to get across a canal, then the chances of getting three tanks across. (I'm TCing the third tank)
http://data.primeportal.net/videos/nlm/scared1.wmv (33MB video)

I was a little more cautious, but certainly more willing to take risks than my old wingman who was a grizzled old tanker. I've mired/thrown track quite a few times, but that hasn't stopped me from going around places. Short of us actually riding around Ireland in our MBTs, we never know for sure what the ground will or will not hold, we can only take guesses. If I'm more optomistic than your Bundeswehr relatives, so be it. Just bear in mind that more than one battle has been fought when the enemy hadn't been told of the friendly opinion that the ground was impassable to tanks.

You mention one very important feature here about our rivers most of them are deep [ over 6meters] and steep banks,plus some of our strategic bridges are not exactly built for MBTs not to mind modern day trucks.Two 40ft trucks can block them quite nicely,and these are not huge American rigs,so what an M1a1 would do would be intresting. Not to mind alot of our secondary roads have bridges&culverts that have weight restrictions of 20 tons appx.

It is the largest argument against. Certainly I'd be reluctant to take a tank over some of the old stone bridges that are on half the N roads. Then again, you've got railroad bridges that can be used as well, and they take hundreds of tons at once. I honestly don't know what proportion of Irelands waterways are tank-crossable, by bridge or ford, but I would be surprised if it is too restrictive to be practicable.

Noit to mind I have personaly stuck a small Catipillar dozer on what I thought was dry field,in a wet summer,and that was only a ten tonner.It was a blanket bog.

We've done the same thing: Middle of an Iraqi summer, bone dry to the touch, and you'll see the troop's feet aren't 'sinking'


This did not result in our putting Iraq off our patrol map.

Indeed Germany is obstructed as well,but in comparison to the Irish countryside it is not made up of small fields with ditches and hedges,interspaced with bogs,rocks,swampy fields etc.

Neither is all of Ireland as boggy as Offaly. It can be argued that in areas of shorter line of sight, more armour is actually more important than less, as you're dealing with much sharper fights with higher hit ratios. It's why the recent range of Heavy APCs and Urban Support Tanks have started appearing for use in restricted terrain. See also the development of the Sherman Jumbo in France.

Most importantly ,it has an exellent road infrastructure from autobahn to landwege[country tracks] which are capable of handling heavy traffic,up to tanks.

Ireland is the most paved country in the world, according to Guinness. No, the boreens will not withstand battalions of tanks cruising up and down them, but if you are in a situation that you need them, does it matter that the roads will get ripped up? (Besides, nobody's ever going to see a battalion of Irish tanks moving as one)

Also,what role could you see MBTs playing in Ireland???By rights the Irish forces are set up to defend the Irish state from internal aggression and uprising.

The Irish Army's brigade structure incorporating things like field artillery and combat engineers indicates that the Defense Forces are at least honouring the concept of conventional battle. Unless you're planning on calling in 105mm howitzers on an uprising. And if it's gotten to that stage, a few tanks might actually be kindof handy.

Secondary is UN peace keepinng.

Indeed, and tanks are proving quite popular in peacekeeping roles. They tend to keep the natives in line:

Indian T-72s in Somalia
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4127/dfst9804790fu5.jpg
(Direct image link broke the page)

French Leclerc in Lebanon.

[caption: An Israeli soldier gestures after French U.N. peacekeepers with their Leclerc tank blocked an Israeli tracked armoured vehicle and jeeps from penetrating deeper into Lebanese territory near the southern village of Marwaheen, Lebanon, Thursday Sept. 28, 2006.]

Danish Leopard 1s in Kosovo


British Challenger in Kosovo.


German Leopard 2, Kosovo


And what would Srebenicze have been like had Dutch troops had a few tanks along to deal with the Serbian ones? Obviously other countries seem to think that tanks on peacekeeping missions is a good idea, otherwise they wouldn't be shipping them off around the world.

Obviously this is all hypothetical as the budget just isn't there, but it's an opinion.

NTM

BrianD

And what would Srebenicze have been like had Dutch troops had a few tanks along to deal with the Serbian ones? Obviously other countries seem to think that tanks on peacekeeping missions is a good idea, otherwise they wouldn't be shipping them off around the world.

They would probably ended up repainted in the local Serb depot. Srebenicze was not a result of a lack of fire power it was due to a lack of moral will power amongst the rest of the civilised nations in Europe including ourselves. As you may have noticed, I don't exactly approve of Ireland arming itself for the sake of it but if ever there was an event for us to abandon our so called neutrality and "get in there" this was it. I don't know if anyone has seen a documentary called "13 days in July" (not sure on title) that documents the events. Horrific stuff and the best and least armed nations in Europe stood idley by.

Capt'n Midnight

babybundy wrote:

thats to do with land mines
we need 2 types 4x4's here one heavily armoured like the hummer or eagle and one like the defender because of the irish roads

TBH The old police landrovers in the north were better armoured than the hummers that got sent to iraq. The two ton landrovers had an additional ton of armour.

Humvees hold the same number of landrovers, depsite costing more to buy and run. And most 4x4's come in diesel these days. It's a long time since Shermans were called "Tommy cookers" , though the russians used to make trucks that would run on Diesel or Petrol or mixtures of both.

It depends on where the armoured version would expect to be deployed. If on the streets as in the North, the Landrover option would be more suited. If in an area where armour is needed then a 6x6 or 8x8 perhaps.

Manic Moran

BrianD wrote:

They would probably ended up repainted in the local Serb depot. Srebenicze was not a result of a lack of fire power it was due to a lack of moral will power amongst the rest of the civilised nations in Europe including ourselves.

The Dutch really had their judgement called by the lack of air cover, which had been supposed to have been the French responsibility. They were willing to fight, but not commit suicide. It is an excellent example of why it can be beneficial not to totally rely on allies for support. "Ah, there's no need to bring a helicopter, the Ukrainians will provide" is a lot less reliable and reassuring to the troops on the ground than being able to call on your own countrymen.

NTM

theliam

Dub13 wrote:

The hummer does something like 11-13 miles per gallon.This is simple unsustainable.

sure a cayenne will only get about 18/19, not saying it would be suitable. surely anything else like the humvee will have a similar economy

komsomol

lol i really have to say this but the Humvee just looks beautifull, thats why we should have them, aesthetic value



feel free to massacre me now.

Maskhadov

Manic Moran wrote:

It is an excellent example of why it can be beneficial not to totally rely on allies for support. "Ah, there's no need to bring a helicopter, the Ukrainians will provide" is a lot less reliable and reassuring to the troops on the ground than being able to call on your own countrymen.

NTM

I completely agree

elvis jaffacake

komsomol wrote:

lol i really have to say this but the Humvee just looks beautifull, thats why we should have them, aesthetic value



feel free to massacre me now.

no need, although the vehicle may not be the US humvee, but a Spanish one, the URO VAMTAC;)

Clare gunner

It is the largest argument against. Certainly I'd be reluctant to take a tank over some of the old stone bridges that are on half the N roads. Then again, you've got railroad bridges that can be used as well, and they take hundreds of tons at once. I honestly don't know what proportion of Irelands waterways are tank-crossable, by bridge or ford, but I would be surprised if it is too restrictive to be practicable.

Hmm,I'd be careful of them too.One of the main railway bridges collapsed on the Waterford/Limerick[?] line last year due to old age,and there wasnt even a train on it!
Just pointing out that Ireland is very deceptive terrainwise and that things one would assume are here,usually are in worse shape than they look,somtimes
QUOTE]We've done the same thing: Middle of an Iraqi summer, bone dry to the This did not result in our putting Iraq off our patrol map.[/QUOTE]

Well, obviously...But I bet you dont send an armourd colum specifically into that field again.:D Looking at the pics obviously not under fire,would be a bitch to do a recovery op if there was somone out there sniping at you.
Bet farmer Abdul was pissed though with the ploughing done:D
I always remember the local German farmers being well pissed when the US held manouvers around us.But at least Uncle Sam coughed up for manouver damages.Just out of intrest is the US doing this in Iraq,paying the natives for unintentional non combat damage to private property??

APCs and Urban Support Tanks have started appearing for use in restricted terrain. See also the development of the Sherman Jumbo in France.

What are they??Are they basically very heavy APCs or armourd cars??

Ireland is the most paved country in the world, according to Guinness. No, the boreens will not withstand battalions of tanks cruising up and down them, but if you are in a situation that you need them, does it matter that the roads will get ripped up? (Besides, nobody's ever going to see a battalion of Irish tanks moving as one)

Re the most paved roads,I, and many others would take that with abit of salt.

The Irish Army's brigade structure incorporating things like field artillery and combat engineers indicates that the Defense Forces are at least honouring the concept of conventional battle. Unless you're planning on calling in 105mm howitzers on an uprising. And if it's gotten to that stage, a few tanks might actually be kindof handy.

I would put that down to us getting involved with the EU battle groups

Obviously this is all hypothetical as the budget just isn't there, but it's an opinion.

And thats the bottom line.We dont have the quids for a squadron of MBTs and ancillary support.

Manic Moran

Clare gunner wrote:

Well, obviously...But I bet you dont send an armourd colum specifically into that field again.:D

Nope, but there's nothing to say that if you sink a tank in an Irish field, you can't just avoid that field again. Bear in mind that Ireland's previous tanks, Comet and Churchill, had ground pressure values of 13.8 and 13.1 PSI respectively. Leopard 2's ground pressure is 11.2 PSI. i.e. Ireland has run tanks before which were more likely to sink than a common modern MBT.

Looking at the pics obviously not under fire,would be a bitch to do a recovery op if there was somone out there sniping at you.

This is true. So secure the area before you recover!

But at least Uncle Sam coughed up for manouver damages.Just out of intrest is the US doing this in Iraq,paying the natives for unintentional non combat damage to private property??

Depended on the circumstances. If it was just us rolling around on patrol, and we went and damaged something out of our own error, we'd pay up. If we were maneuvering in contact, no payments were made as it was an 'incident of war.' Which is normal enough, you'll find your average insurance policy doesn't cover acts of war either.

What are they??Are they basically very heavy APCs or armourd cars??

BMP-T Urban Support Tank


BTR-T Heavy APC


Achzarit Heavy APC


Namera Heavy APC


They're all based off of MBT chassis, the Urban Support Tank concept is to deal with the limitations of conventional tanks of low-ish rate of fire, limited traverse and elevation, and possible 'overkill'. The heavy APCs are generally regular tanks with the turret removed, more armour added to the hull, and a compartment for troops. Back in the day, Sherman Jumbo was a regular Sherman with a lot more armour added to the front to give it a fighting chance against the various AT weapons that were mucking around in the close French terrain.

I would put that down to us getting involved with the EU battle groups

Come on, are you seriously saying that the Irish Artillery and (armoured) Cavalry corps do not predate the EU battlegroup concept?

NTM