Towns still waiting for a bypass

Chris_533976

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I was under the impression that it was?

Edit: Yeah just checked, Castleisland bypass is on the chop list.

Ennis bypass is definately Standard DC, not HQDC. Yes, some of the junctions are LILOS, but the major ones near Ennis itself are much bigger. The junction at Tulla I think and the one at Barefield are LILOS.

The one at Barefield will probably only take a handful of cars per day (Barefield is tiny). In reality, the new road doesnt really take enough traffic for merging issues on the mainline.

I dont personally think the Ennis bypass is 120kmh capable - there is one section with a bump and quite a sharp bend. But remember that we live in the country that puts 80kmh limits on pot hole ridden narrow roads with grass in the middle leading to a dead end within site of the sign. The whole "drive to the road conditions not to the speed limit" takes over.

With THAT in mind, all the reclassifications will be 120kmh, whether they're up to the standard or not.

kleefarr

Mallow! What a mess traffic wise.

Any news?

Sponge Bob

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Edit: Yeah just checked, Castleisland bypass is on the chop list.

Thanks Chris, is the New Ross bypass by only chance the only project through CPO and not on that chop list then ??

(EDIT read the feckin choplist sponge bob)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget-2009/the-measures/metro-powers-ahead-but-major-road-projects-suffer-1498939.html

The N11 Arklow to Rathnew in Co Wicklow is among six road projects that have been put on the long finger in the light of the downturn.

The others are the Longford bypass; the Castleisland bypass in Kerry; the Carrigtwohill to Midleton road in Cork; Newlands Cross, in Dublin; and the Oranmore to Gort road in Co Galway.

Mind you if the €12m Longford N5 job and the maybe €20m Castleisland projects are cancelled I am not holding out much hope for New Ross getting the go . The N17 Tuam Road is not on that choplist either but we all know it cannot start (realistically) before 2012 .

Mallow , maybe starting 2012?? but well down the list .

Chris_533976

Mallow is bad but sorting out Mallow - Croom is more important as its a mess at the moment. AFAIK the Mallow bypass will be part of the Blarney - Mallow scheme so isnt high on the list.

New Ross isnt quite through CPO yet, still waiting for ABP decision. Basically the New Ross bypass and the Galway bypass are at the same point. Not sure which of them would get priority - hopefully Galway - although I've heard rumours that the crowd doing the Waterford bridge are planning to head into New Ross once they're done.

BluntGuy

I drove through Mallow last Sunday and saw signs pointing to the Ascon Site offices... has anybody paid them a visit to see what's going on?

Sponge Bob

BluntGuy wrote: »

I drove through Mallow last Sunday and saw signs pointing to the Ascon Site offices... has anybody paid them a visit to see what's going on?

Why bother ?????

Google is your friend Bluntguy

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0229/ascon.html?rss

"Construction company Ascon has won a €10.5m contract to begin flood relief work in Mallow, Co Cork, early next month."

and of course Money !!!

BluntGuy

I thought Ascon were involved in the M20 works...

Maybe it's RoadBridgeSisk, thanks for letting me what's going on Sponge... even though it certainly isn't what I hoped to hear in relation to getting that horrible bottleneck bypassed...

Sponge Bob

BG

The M20 cannot be Started before LATE 2012 the way things are now.

It is at final route selection and will then need to go through

2 years of reports and detailed design , consultations and land searches etc
1 Year of EIS and CPO and Inspectors report

Then 1 year of tender process from issue of tender to deal done and diggers on site .

After that it will take all of 2013 and 2014 to build at a minimum .

Spring 2015 is the earliest possible opening date for the M20 I hate to tell you , only a FF politician would promise it any sooner

Frank Fahey would personally promise it for Christmas 2010 if that cheers you up any, you need but email him :mad:

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

BG

The M20 cannot be Started before LATE 2012 the way things are now.

It is at final route selection and will then need to go through

2 years of reports and detailed design , consultations and land searches etc
1 Year of EIS and CPO and Inspectors report

Then 1 year of tender process from issue of tender to deal done and diggers on site .

After that it will take all of 2013 and 2014 to build at a minimum .

Spring 2015 is the earliest possible opening date for the M20 I hate to tell you , only a FF politician would promise it any sooner

Frank Fahey would personally promise it for Christmas 2010 if that cheers you up any, you need but email him :mad:

I already knew that the earliast feasible start-date is 2012 (regardless of funding). I'd just like to know what progress is being made in relation to route selection. How exactly will Mallow be bypassed? Where will the junction be? etc.

As for good ol' Frank, well he'd have the M20 going straight to my front-door with construction starting next week... we all know how great he is for promises.

thebman

Tullamore bypass is under way anyway. Construction down the road from my parents house.

It looks like they are putting in a roundabout for the road it is going through. Seems kind of ridiculous considering how unimportant the road is but my parents live down there so I won't be upset if I can take the bypass out and hop off at a round about and have a 5 minute drive home

Sponge Bob

BluntGuy wrote: »

I already knew that the earliast feasible start-date is 2012 (regardless of funding). I'd just like to know what progress is being made in relation to route selection. How exactly will Mallow be bypassed? Where will the junction be? etc.

I though the route selection around Mallow was done in 2006 or sooner , the process is under way north of Mallow to Croom . Try

http://www.corkrdo.ie/ for info .

also see this as it is pertinent right now !

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Global%20Nav/Document%20View?did=739184741&pageUrl=/Global+Nav/Home

As for good ol' Frank, well he'd have the M20 going straight to my front-door with construction starting next week... we all know how great he is for promises.

You need but ask , that is all !!

YeGods

BluntGuy wrote: »

I drove through Mallow last Sunday and saw signs pointing to the Ascon Site offices... has anybody paid them a visit to see what's going on?

Anybody know if they are planning to join the north and south link Roads at the end of this motorway. I'm specifically interested in The mallow to Cork road joining up with the Ballincollig road. A Friend works in the Airport and lives in Mallow - takes 1.5 hours min to get home

Chris_533976

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I though the route selection around Mallow was done in 2006 or sooner , the process is under way north of Mallow to Croom . Try

http://www.corkrdo.ie/ for info .

also see this as it is pertinent right now !

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Global%20Nav/Document%20View?did=739184741&pageUrl=/Global+Nav/Home



You need but ask , that is all !!

Yeah route selection was done earlier, but was re-done basically once they decided the whole lot was going to be motorway. I have the original Mallow - Croom maps on my HDD and they're completely different from the ones shown at the public consultations.

mysterious

God, I really hope they get a move on with this M20.

With the Limerick Tunnel and M7/N18 schemes opening in the next two years. N20 will be severely restrained, been the only interurban left coping with a bohereen for most of it's lenght while all approach roads are gleaming.

Honestly this government should
Of postponed the Waterford to Kilkenny (low trafficked section till 2015) and allow at least the first phase from Mallow to Croom to start. The Carlow to Waterford scheme obviously could still go ahead.

It was stupid planning allowing to N9 sections starting in the one year.


Really really stupid. Honestly the Road between Croom and Mallow is one of the most dangerous stretches of road in the country. The H.G.V traffic also very high. Chareville should of gotten the attention before the small villages such as Thomastown on the N9 for example.

Bards

mysterious wrote: »

God, I really hope they get a move on with this M20.

With the Limerick Tunnel and M7/N18 schemes opening in the next two years. N20 will be severely restrained, been the only interurban left coping with a bohereen for most of it's lenght while all approach roads are gleaming.

Honestly this government should
Of postponed the Waterford to Kilkenny (low trafficked section till 2015) and allow at least the first phase from Mallow to Croom to start. The Carlow to Waterford scheme obviously could still go ahead.

It was stupid planning allowing to N9 sections starting in the one year.


Really really stupid. Honestly the Road between Croom and Mallow is one of the most dangerous stretches of road in the country. The H.G.V traffic also very high. Chareville should of gotten the attention before the small villages such as Thomastown on the N9 for example.

All MIUs are being constructed at the same time, no MIU got preferential treatment in this regard. In fact the M9 will replce both the old N9 and the N10. The new M9 is a good distance away from Thomastown, but passes closer to Kilkenny

http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/KilkennyCountyCouncil/N9N10CarlowKnocktopherKilcullenWaterford/Map,15473,en.pdf

The N20 is NOT an MIU and therefore should not have jumped the queue

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

The N20 is NOT an MIU and therefore should not have jumped the queue

LOL, the N20 connects two urban areas which are both way bigger then Wa'furd, and carries more traffic yet according to your criteria its not an MIU but the M9 is.


Look just accept that the M9/Martin Cullen Freeway is a sop to parochial politics and nothing else.

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

LOL, the N20 connects two urban areas which are both way bigger then Wa'furd, and carries more traffic yet according to your criteria its not an MIU but the M9 is.


Look just accept that the M9/Martin Cullen Freeway is a sop to parochial politics and nothing else.

The M9 is a corridor servicing close on 250,000 people

You just can't accept the fact that the M9 is under construction and are like a baby crying over spilt milk

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

The M9 is a corridor servicing close on 250,000 people

Meaningless stat, but then you know that already.

Bards wrote: »

You just can't accept the fact that the M9 is under construction and are like a baby crying over spilt milk

This baby will continue to mention the M9 as part of a wider critique of atrocious Government policy for now and the foreseeable future.

Chris_533976

This thread is about to turn into a huge Waterford vs everyone-else fight, so I thought I'd get my say in.

Waterford IMO does need the M9. The N9 as it stands is in a worse condition than the N20. So yeah, it needs an upgrade.

What should have been done though, is delay one M9 scheme (say Carlow - Knocktopher) and do M20 Mallow - Croom. That way both roads get some restbite.

As it stands the M9 is being done as its defined as an MIU, no other reason whatsoever. The M20 does not connect Dublin to anything so is not defined as an MIU.

A simple rejigging of 'what things are called' would have meant the worst part of the current N20 would have been fixed.

BluntGuy

The M9 is necessary, it is being built, we need to get over it.

A high-quality corridor linking Waterford to the capital will make the south-east a much more attractive place for investment.

As for what an MUI is. Well it's an interurban. Therefore it links urban areas. It does not specify that one of those areas has to be Dublin. Therefore I'd consider the M20 and M18 to each be interurbans.

In any case, whether or not the M9 should've been given priority over other schemes is a different matter, but certainly it is necessary to replace an awful road which is certainly deterring some investment away from both Waterford and the other towns along the route (as well as being a massive safety issue).

Sadly though, these arguments apply to many roads - the N20 being one of the main candidates. Waterford just got lucky when it came to funding, we need to accept it because one way or another, the M9 was always going to be built in some shape or form...

invincibleirish

BluntGuy wrote: »

Waterford just got lucky when it came to funding

No it did not.




Gombeen politics won out.

This thread is about places still needing bypasses. MIUs is just a fancy title to justify putting money into pork barrel projects like the M9. FF have used T21 and the NDP to satisfy all local qualms.

The M9 is built:

Charleville/Buttevant/Adare/NCW still need a bypass.

Cork needs Its SRR upgrades.

Newlands X.

Macroom

Claregalway/Gort

Galway Bypass


Building roads as a reason to stimulate economic growth is all well and good but bottlenecks should be sorted FIRST!. Besides, advocating building roads to stimulate economic growth is 1990s thinking and has the same justification as building the WRC or any other projects where politics plays a more important role then actual need.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

No it did not.




Gombeen politics won out.

I would class that as 'luck'...

fricatus

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Waterford IMO does need the M9.

Does Galway need the M6 in your opinion?

Chris_533976 wrote: »

What should have been done though, is delay one M9 scheme (say Carlow - Knocktopher) and do M20 Mallow - Croom.

Maybe I'm being unfair, picking on a section of the M9 that you've just chosen as an instance, but that bit is the worst section of the current N9 (and one of the worst sections of national road in the country).

If any part of the MIU network were to be delayed (not that it will happen) you could equally pick Castletown-Nenagh, or Athlone-Ballinasloe. At least the existing roads in these cases are of reasonable standard (not good enough of course, but better than the N9 by a long way).

In any case lads, those of you criticising the M9 really have to get over yourselves at some point. I agree, there are well warranted criticisms: the fact that the government stuck slavishly to the existing N-road corridors rather than building a new network that would make better use of resources; and also the gombeen argument - but what part of the country has not scrambled to make use of a minister at the cabinet table? Waterford last had a minister in 1986 I think, and we were out in the cold for two decades while Cork got its tunnel and a freeway Los Angeles would envy, Limerick its university and National Techological Park and Galway just about everything going!

If these things were planned properly and according to need, the N9 would probably have been upgraded to a reasonabe standard during the '90s, and who knows, we mightn't be having this discussion now. But things happened the way they did. Maybe you'd be better off now concentrating your energies on discussing projects that have yet to be decided?

Chris_533976

fricatus wrote: »

Does Galway need the M6 in your opinion?

Yes

Maybe I'm being unfair, picking on a section of the M9 that you've just chosen as an instance, but that bit is the worst section of the current N9 (and one of the worst sections of national road in the country).

If any part of the MIU network were to be delayed (not that it will happen) you could equally pick Castletown-Nenagh, or Athlone-Ballinasloe. At least the existing roads in these cases are of reasonable standard (not good enough of course, but better than the N9 by a long way).

Totally agree. I dont know much about the N9, but I certainly would have picked the M20 (and indeed Claregalway and a few others) over some of the current MIU builds. Its politics, not 'whether a scheme is needed now or not'.

Lets face it, which affects more people, say the M8 Cashel - Mitchelstown or the M17 Tuam to Athenry (Claregalway)?? Which should REALLY have been built first?

invincibleirish

fricatus wrote: »

In any case lads, those of you criticising the M9 really have to get over yourselves at some point. I agree, there are well warranted criticisms: the fact that the government stuck slavishly to the existing N-road corridors rather than building a new network that would make better use of resources; and also the gombeen argument - but what part of the country has not scrambled to make use of a minister at the cabinet table? Waterford last had a minister in 1986 I think, and we were out in the cold for two decades while Cork got its tunnel and a freeway Los Angeles would envy, Limerick its university and National Techological Park and Galway just about everything going!

If these things were planned properly and according to need, the N9 would probably have been upgraded to a reasonabe standard during the '90s, and who knows, we mightn't be having this discussion now. But things happened the way they did. Maybe you'd be better off now concentrating your energies on discussing projects that have yet to be decided?

This is what always does my head in, basically you argue that because of perceived bias in favour of Cities like Cork & Limerick over Waterford from Government expenditure, then the blatant Gombeenism/corruption of Martin Cullen is ok. You do realise you cannot run a country along those principles and prosper? nevermind build and maintain a functional National Road network (as opposed to the masses of empty blue Mway this country will have in a few years).

fricatus

invincibleirish wrote: »

This is what always does my head in, basically you argue that because of perceived bias in favour of Cities like Cork & Limerick over Waterford from Government expenditure, then the blatant Gombeenism/corruption of Martin Cullen is ok.

I never said it was OK. My point is that absolutely every minister showers largesse on their own area of the country. That's the way it's been since I was a child, and I see no sign of it changing.

Sometimes, Government projects are badly needed, sometimes not, but when your turn comes at the Cabinet table, you have to grab what you can, because you don't know when your turn will come again.

The standard of the N9 south of Carlow is atrocious, and it needed an upgrade. Had fairness been applied, it would have been upgraded (to less than motorway standard) years ago. It wasn't, because we had no political power here. As soon as we did, hey presto, problem solved.

invincibleirish wrote: »

You do realise you cannot run a country along those principles and prosper?

Well yes and no... I agree it's a crap system, and it militated against Waterford for two decades. Remember we only benefited from it recently, and who knows when we will benefit from it again? However this country has prospered enormously. Is that despite, or because of the system? My honest answer is "despite".

But make no mistake, proper road access (HQDC or motorway) from Waterford to Dublin, the Midlands and North was sorely needed. Don't let the shoddy and wasteful way in which it's being implemented blind you to that fact.

invincibleirish

Shall you be voting for FF next time around?

merlante

invincibleirish wrote: »

This is what always does my head in, basically you argue that because of perceived bias in favour of Cities like Cork & Limerick over Waterford from Government expenditure, then the blatant Gombeenism/corruption of Martin Cullen is ok. You do realise you cannot run a country along those principles and prosper? nevermind build and maintain a functional National Road network (as opposed to the masses of empty blue Mway this country will have in a few years).

What does my head in is people suggesting that when Cork, Limerick and Galway have had any amount of minister bought development over the past 20 years, that Waterford is made out to be a thief in the night during the brief period of moderate development that coincided with Cullen being in cabinet.

What also does my head in is people denouncing gombeen politics when successive governments (every government?) encourage it by making capital expenditure a free for all. Why not argue for a rational basis for infrastructure provision rather than point the finger at Waterford, which was a very late comer to a party nearly over?

The M9 is badly needed. Traffic diverts to the N11 to avoid the existing N9. For a road linking a major urban area to Dublin, it is far and away the worst in the country. It mitigates against traffic and travelling. It is a disaster. Furthermore, not to provide it would have seen Waterford and the south east decline even further with respect to other regions. There was a huge push towards getting the road started on all sections simultaneously, because the need was desperate, and because like any capital expenditure in Waterford, it was politically vulnerable.

Now that it can't be stopped, you have to learn to get over it. Once the road is built, traffic levels will rise, and will ultimately reach the levels on other inter-urbans, because it serves a large population. So move on. There'll be other investment in Waterford in the medium to long term that you can decry. Or can we rely on you to make rational arguments for the development of Waterford and the south east when Cullen is gone? (Can we ****.)

serfboard

Chris_533976 wrote: »

This thread is about to turn into a huge Waterford vs everyone-else fight

Too late! It has already. In fact it's turned into an M9 Vs M20 debate.

Politics, people, politics. It's a fact of life. And although I'm not from Waterford, I would agree ye have to get over it. These are done deals already.

To take the gombeenism out of road transport planning, we created the NRA. However, we then re-introduced it by altering the 'priorities' of the NRA. We had, IMO, a perfectly logical scheme. MIUs, ARC and other strategic routes afterwards. And we would have delivered on it, had the money not run out. As it is, the MIUs will be delivered on. In fact, we've even shnuck in a bit of ARC with Crusheen-Gort.

And M20 advocates, come on lads, ye know that while the whole lot does need to be done, the bit really crying out for it is Mallow-Croom. Which is, I agree, desperately needed. Should it have been done before Crusheen-Gort? Yes, IMO. But this is where the "prioritisation" (i.e. politics) of the argument wins out. We know it's not done on the basis of traffic volumes, or Claregalway would have been done a long time ago. We know it's not done on the basis of safety, or Arklow-Rathnew would have been done first. Nope, it's politics. And if N20 commuters had written letters and called their politicians every day for the last few years, telling them what a disgrace the road was, it would have been next. After all, as Eamonn O'Cuiv once said, politicans will often do things just to get people off their backs.

invincibleirish

To the peeps crying out that we should 'get over it' and stop 'crying' over the M9 and now that it is built we should move on. You don't get it do you? you have not made the link between our Government, which has wasted (not just in transport) huge amounts of money and the projects you champion. This thread is about bypasses which are much more needed then the M9 but will be long fingered so pork barrel projects can be built at the behest of a Cullen/Fahey/Cowen.

The M9 is the epitome of clientist politics and for that it needs to be publicised.

The M9 is badly needed. Traffic diverts to the N11 to avoid the existing N9. For a road linking a major urban area to Dublin, it is far and away the worst in the country. It mitigates against traffic and travelling. It is a disaster. Furthermore, not to provide it would have seen Waterford and the south east decline even further with respect to other regions. There was a huge push towards getting the road started on all sections simultaneously, because the need was desperate, and because like any capital expenditure in Waterford, it was politically vulnerable.

Now that it can't be stopped, you have to learn to get over it. Once the road is built, traffic levels will rise, and will ultimately reach the levels on other inter-urbans, because it serves a large population. So move on. There'll be other investment in Waterford in the medium to long term that you can decry. Or can we rely on you to make rational arguments for the development of Waterford and the south east when Cullen is gone? (Can we ****.)

As for this: The M9 corridor will have to experience massive growth in population & economic activity to justify its investment. As this country dips into recession its quite clear that neither will occur in the short to medium term. So in 2010/11 we will have lots of relatively empty Mways running through the Irish countryside, meanwhile unglamourous projects which dont have a political godfather *supporting* them but which, if funded, would have a much more immediate positive impact are in limbo as public finances run dry.

I'm not trying to be parochial and argue for M20 over M9 or anything else, i just consider that a lot of money has been wasted by this Government through a combination of factors in the roads programme. Fair enough a few early contracts went massively over budget, but when money is being wasted on projects not needed imminently but are being pushed through as pet projects then thats not appropriate whether you support the project or not.