Should Irish Be Compulsory

thegoth

Hi,

I just want to say that I do not think that Irish should be Compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

Here are my reasons

1) It favors people that have a natural ability for languages

2) Anyone who is forced to learn it against there will, will in fact not learn it and never use it again

3) Unlike English and Maths, it is not required for every day living in this country. You need to have a decent understanding of English so that you can understand various documents you sign over your lifetime and you need a basic level of Maths to insure people do not screw you over with money.

4) Students that are studying Irish because they have to, even though they will not use it for ponits, now have an extra subject to study for, that they will never use again, not even for points, and have extra stress because of this

I'm not saying Irish shouldn't be taught, nor as I "Slagging", Irish off. I think it should be Compulsory until Junior Cert, then give people the choice.

I know Irish is our culture, but what good is that to the many 1,000s of students who do not like Irish and need points !!

Please state wheather you are a student or teacher if replying

EdgarAllenPoo

I don't think it should. I also don't thik math or english should be either. We should have it like the UK. At the begining of fifth year you decide what you're aiming for and choose your subjects according to thee requirements of the course you want to do. If it's medicine you could take all the sciences. If it's arts you take things like history and english. If it's business you take economics,accounting and business.

Rockerette

no PLEASE not another one of these "debates"

the same arguments come up every time, and it gets really dull and predictable...


ITS A DEAD LANGUAGE!

VS

WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR CULTURE ALIVE!



cmon guys, get over it.. it is compulsory so quit yer moanin!


if you dont like it, never speak a word of it after 6th year. if you do like it, do speak it

i hate French, but a language was compulsory in our school, so i did it, and it was fine.. I doubt I'll ever use it much again, I seriously despise the language..


and just for the record, dont assume people dont use it for points.. Irish was a helluvva lot more useful to me than maths.. i didnt even consider using maths, but Irish gave me a nice set of 85 points

delta_bravo

Lock It

Cuir An Alt Seo Faoi Ghlais Anois!!!:d :d :d

Raphael

Rockerette wrote:

cmon guys, get over it.. it is compulsory so quit yer moanin!

And, most importantly: It's over! Who cares!

Lord Oz

Well since all the people going into 6th year are probably posting here now, I guess we can expect every thread from the last year to be recreated.

Holsten

No, it shouldn't be compulsory.

It should be taught in the same vain as German/French though, if that was the case, I know I would have enjoyed the language much more instead of having it force fed.

EdgarAllenPoo

There's something that's always annoyed me about LC Irish, gealteacht students, they get to bloody sail through the exam, especially the oral. Not to mention the fact you get extra marks for answering certain papers in Irish, granted not all gealteacht dtudents do that but they do have an unfair advantage over the rest of us.

smemon

thegoth wrote:

Hi,

I just want to say that I do not think that Irish should be Compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

Here are my reasons

1) It favors people that have a natural ability for languages

2) Anyone who is forced to learn it against there will, will in fact not learn it and never use it again

3) Unlike English and Maths, it is not required for every day living in this country. You need to have a decent understanding of English so that you can understand various documents you sign over your lifetime and you need a basic level of Maths to insure people do not screw you over with money.

4) Students that are studying Irish because they have to, even though they will not use it for ponits, now have an extra subject to study for, that they will never use again, not even for points, and have extra stress because of this

I'm not saying Irish shouldn't be taught, nor as I "Slagging", Irish off. I think it should be Compulsory until Junior Cert, then give people the choice.

I know Irish is our culture, but what good is that to the many 1,000s of students who do not like Irish and need points !!

agree 100%. all good points which nobody can argue against.

abetarrush

thegoth wrote:

Hi,

I just want to say that I do not think that Irish should be Compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

Here are my reasons

1) It favors people that have a natural ability for languages

2) Anyone who is forced to learn it against there will, will in fact not learn it and never use it again

3) Unlike English and Maths, it is not required for every day living in this country. You need to have a decent understanding of English so that you can understand various documents you sign over your lifetime and you need a basic level of Maths to insure people do not screw you over with money.

4) Students that are studying Irish because they have to, even though they will not use it for ponits, now have an extra subject to study for, that they will never use again, not even for points, and have extra stress because of this

I'm not saying Irish shouldn't be taught, nor as I "Slagging", Irish off. I think it should be Compulsory until Junior Cert, then give people the choice.

I know Irish is our culture, but what good is that to the many 1,000s of students who do not like Irish and need points !!

Please state wheather you are a student or teacher if replying

Unlike English and Maths? How often will the average person need to know about Shakespeare, or How to solve an algebra equation


The problem with irish isnt the language, its the sylabus
Its made as if we're all fluent in irish since 1st class

The paper should have a similar layout as French, or the other foreign languages

And thats the point, Irish has to be treated as a Foreign language, cos we dont speak it!

We have to do the same as the English Paper, and more!


I say we go brick the Dep of Education's buiding

GWAN D FVCK!

VIVE LA REVOLUTION DE L'IRLANDAIS!!!!

JCB

thegoth wrote:

1) It favors people that have a natural ability for languages

As does english, which is compulsary. Also French/German, which is essentially compulsary for NUI...

thegoth wrote:

2) Anyone who is forced to learn it against there will, will in fact not learn it and never use it again

As with english, being honest when are you going to read a poem again?
As with maths, I know I will not use hardly any HL maths again.
As with french/german, how many times are you going to visit such countries?

thegoth wrote:

3) Unlike English and Maths, it is not required for every day living in this country. You need to have a decent understanding of English so that you can understand various documents you sign over your lifetime and you need a basic level of Maths to insure people do not screw you over with money.

FFS, my standard of english is the same since Junior certificate and was not improved reading King Lear etc.. and if only maths taught you not to get screwed over with money, wouldn't be great. :rolleyes:

thegoth wrote:

4) Students that are studying Irish because they have to, even though they will not use it for ponits, now have an extra subject to study for, that they will never use again, not even for points, and have extra stress because of this

If students prefer to put an extra workload on themselves with another subject rather than working a little harder on Irish, sure don't they only have themselves to blame for the stress? If you put a little extra work into Irish you would count it for points.


I studied applied maths for leaving cert and I won't be using it ever again (I think:D ) but that didn't stop me doing it, enjoying it (after hating it for all of 5th year) and doing well in it.

thegoth wrote:

I'm not saying Irish shouldn't be taught, nor am I "Slagging", Irish off. I think it should be Compulsory until Junior Cert, then give people the choice.

On that logic so should English and Maths, but I don't see that happening.

thegoth wrote:

I know Irish is our culture, but what good is that to the many 1,000s of students who do not like Irish and need points !!

Well if people demonise the language don't you think that this is the problem and rather than avoiding the problem through escapism, don't you think a more enjoyable syllabus should be introduced instead?
If you get an attitude about a subject then yes that subject will affect your points total, therefore fix the attitude problem and voila your points increase!!

DublinWriter

Rockerette wrote:

ITS A DEAD LANGUAGE!

VS

WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR CULTURE ALIVE!

There's also another argument. Recent studies show that kids growing up bi-lingual environment or being taught a second language at primary level turn out a hell of a lot smarter in later life. Belgium and Germany are good examples of this. As of last year, China will be teaching kids to speak English from age 4. Compare and contrast average levels of intelligence with the UK and US.

The teachers at my primary (Baldoyle BNS) were comitted to the language (a couple even had BAs in Irish) and we spent the first hour of the day in class discussing current affairs in Irish. There wasn't any curriculum, or tests, and I think all the lads in my class (ranging in intelligence from uber clever to window licker) came out of 6th class fairly proficient in Irish.

But when I went to secondary (won't say where, boards is in enough legal trouble as it is!), all that went out the window as we were subjected to the horror otherwise known as 'Peig' and some fairly awful teachers. All of us managed to 'unlearn' the Irish we were taught in Primary.

I do agree that Irish, or another language, should be compulsory as learning another language helps develop your brain at an early stage, but it's all down to circulum - it needs to be modernised and made 'sexy' and vital.

Hector did more for the Irish language that Peig Saywers ever did.

superdudeman007

If hardly anyone even considers doing it for the LC, then even less will study it in college, then even fewer kids will learn Irish in school and eventually it will end up just being scrapped anyway.

I bet the last year that Irish is compulsory will be the year I finish the LC. My school scrapped Religion AFTER I started First Year so I have to do Religion exams but the other years don't.

Aero787

Get over it! The LC is just something you have to do. So what if they are compulsory, it's part of your education. The reality is that you will use very little of what you study for LC later in life.

In 4th year, I began to have a dislike for Irish and my teacher, but now in 6th year, I realise that I would like to be able to speak Irish and I don't really hate my teacher any more. After the LC, I will learn to use Irish properly. I'm ashamed that I'm not that good at Irish.

As for English, I can't stand the poetry or plays crap, because I simply like to sit down and enjoy plays/films without over-analysing things, but it's a part of my general education like everything else. I'll get over it.

A bit of advice I wish I had taken on board: Don't let stupid things like this bog you down. I used to, and now I regret it. Luckily for me I won't have problems getting points for my desired courses, but if I hadn't let stupid things p*ss me off, I might do a lot better.

At the moment, my French teacher drives me insane. I'm hoping for an A in the LC so I'm going to Essential French, and doing nothing in his class. Problem sorted, I did more French in one class than in a year with him. He shows no respect to me (ever since I asked to leave his class), so why should I bother. He'll say to some guys "Oh, I'm sure you'll know that, you're a genius" in a smarmy voice. Then he'll say to me "Eh, (my full name) what does that mean?" like a ********. I don't say a word anymore because I'm just sick of it. He tests my patience for sure!

College will be a fresh start for all of us. I can't wait!

Raphael

superdudeman007 wrote:

If hardly anyone even considers doing it for the LC, then even less will study it in college, then even fewer kids will learn Irish in school and eventually it will end up just being scrapped anyway.

I bet the last year that Irish is compulsory will be the year I finish the LC. My school scrapped Religion AFTER I started First Year so I have to do Religion exams but the other years don't.

*stab*

AdMMM

I can't really understand why people keep saying "just get over it" and other similar phrases. Granted, if you're sitting your Leaving Certificate this year, or have already sat it, then this debate will have little bearing on you. But if everyone just lived with it and stayed quiet about it, then there'd never be any innovation - and not just in education.

Just because we have to endure a less than ideal education system, it doesn't mean that future generations should have to do the same. If people don't raise their concerns about such issues or offer feedback regarding compulsary subjects then as far as Mary Hanifan is concerned, there'd be no need to make any drastic changes to the either the core of the Leaving Certificate examination system or the Irish sylabus.

Personally, I'm against Irish being a compulsary subject for the Leaving Cert. I feel that it should be downgraded to a subject that's only compulsary up until Junior Certificate level. This would ensure that only students who have an interest in Irish will study it.

I'm sure that there are people out there who loathe Maths or English - the other compulsary subjects - just as much as I loathe Irish, but I think Irish is the subject that is less applicable to society once we leave school and I'm sure that there are many who would be inclined to agree with me.

Milktrolley

abetarrush wrote:

Unlike English and Maths? How often will the average person need to know about Shakespeare, or How to solve an algebra equation


The problem with irish isnt the language, its the sylabus
Its made as if we're all fluent in irish since 1st class

The paper should have a similar layout as French, or the other foreign languages

And thats the point, Irish has to be treated as a Foreign language, cos we dont speak it!

My sentiments exactly. There's a lot of people in my year (5th) who admit to knowing more German than they know Irish. And that's four years on German, compared with 12 on Irish.

The curriculum is in dire need of a makeover, and I know teachers that agree with that. It's killing the language.

smemon

Milktrolley wrote:

It's killing the language.

i think the language is well and truely dead. You'll have the odd burst of enthusiasm towards the language and heritage and all that rubbish - investments of a few million here and there but ultimately - it's all in vain.

The only reason you learn Irish is to become an Irish teacher or newsperson, they're the only jobs you'll get out of it.

If there's no money in it, what good is it to anyone? I'm sorry if i sound heartless (im not really, it just makes my arguement sound more balanced) but that's how it rolls nowadays.

DublinWriter

smemon wrote:

If there's no money in it, what good is it to anyone?

Sums it all up really. Spoken like a true 'Celtic Cub'.

You should stop calling yourself 'smemon' and start calling yourself 'smamon'.

People take so much pride in being Irish, but these days I'm struggling to find many points of difference between us and the British.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Stop complaining about it, just put up with it. It'll benefit you in that it will develop your mind linguistically and its easy points.

The system in the UK is a joke, it's ridiculously easy to stroll through. At least in Ireland, students must be eductaed to a certain degree holistically, by being forced to take the three core subjects.

jaydigity

The Irish curricuum is destroying the language and is what inspires so amny secondary school leavers to hate it. It doesnt just need to be thought like a foreign language it needs to be taught as though it is a language
At the moment Irish basically entails learning masses of information of by heart, it may aswell be latin.
I'm a student and I personally feel that Irish should not be made optional, however the Course needs a SERIOUS overhaul. I love Irish but I detest our syllabus, anyone else agree?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jaydigity wrote:

The Irish curricuum is destroying the language and is what inspires so amny secondary school leavers to hate it. It doesnt just need to be thought like a foreign language it needs to be taught as though it is a language
At the moment Irish basically entails learning masses of information of by heart, it may aswell be latin.
I'm a student and I personally feel that Irish should not be made optional, however the Course needs a SERIOUS overhaul. I love Irish but I detest our syllabus, anyone else agree?

I totally agree, our standard of Irish should be brought up to being on a par with our standard of English, however, such an overhaul would have to be introduced in primary schools/pre-schools first, as this is when we are best able to learn languages. The current curriculum for primary schools is an abomination.

Naikon

Why put up with a langauge which has no future in our society?.
Why should we continue to put up with a dead,USELESS langauge
which has never been a part of me among my peers.
I hate to say it, but its true.



My parents put up with this langauge, I did, why should it continue?
Wright of passage?
Its the 21st century, we cant afford to speak irish for everyday use.
English is the Langauge of Business and everyday life.
The money used to teach the langauge should be pumped into sevices that REALLY need it, for example the Health service.
What a waste of Goverment revenue.
Hell, pump it into something ir dire need of funding, like earthquake victims, specialised Cancer clinics.


It sickens me to discover that after so many years of "education" most people still have difficulty with stringing a simple irish sentance together in contrast to modern langauges.
People are dying on trollies, and money is being pumped into a langauge which serves no purpose in 21st century Modern Ireland.
Yet we have UCD protestors in absolute outcry over a decision by Enda Kenny to remove the compulsary subject.
Maths and to a lesser degree English, serve a far more important role in educating todays youth, than Irish ever or will have.
Maybe the langauge was feasible in pre-famine times,but the goverment should accept the reality.
Every bit of extra cash generated could improve SOME service in this
This country, how little or big that contribution may be.
I am sick to my teeth of people saying "uh put up with it" and "its our identity/culture/<insert radical explanation here>".



This langauge has NEVER, in recent times been a part of our society.
It is about as true to life to our heritage and culture, as a british run "irish" pub in
spain is true to the irish image.
However like the History course, too much rote information has taken the joy out of learning irish.
There is no Technology or IT subject in the LC for instance, while we have subjects like irish which annoys me, because at least for A-levels you can specialise, unlike the LC crap where a "general" education suposedly is "superior".
People who are going for Business related jobs are really going to benefit from learning why "Hamlet" is widely appreciated and such an amazing piece of litrature.
Irish has outlived its Purpose and importance.


*note= I am not facist or anything, but go ahead and learn it if you want, just dont impose it on a whole generation, Free will is the key.

JSK 252

The irish language in schools needs some fine tuning but not a lot. The recent Irish Government advertisement highlights the growing decline of our native language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrtioJlaQeE

(Dara O Cinneide)
First man says: Maybe we're the last generation that will put pen to paper.

N'fheadar an sinne an ghlúin deireanach a chuirfidh peann le pár?

(Conal from Ros na Run)
Next man says: Maybe we're the last generation that'll be able to buy our own houses.

B'fhéidir gur muidinne an ghlúin deireanach agus ábalta ár dteach féin a cheannacht.

(Sile Seoige)
Girl says: Maybe we're the last generation not to choose a bit of nip and tuck.

Seans maith gur muide an ghlúin deiridh nach roghnóidh nip agus tuck.

These well known people are making a valid point in my opinion. In Irelands vastly growing cosmopolitan society the Irish language is dying very quickly and there is nothing that anyone can do to ratify the problem. Making Irish non compulsary will compound the dilemma but I do see other peoples point of view with regards this issue. I dont really mind doing the language because I find it a lot easier than English which is a load of b******* in my opinion. Why not make English non compulsory? Thats the question that I am pondering about. Who needs it but people who are venturing on to do arts degrees in university or journalism etc. Im doing the leaving certificate in 2009 and the next question people are going to ask is you dont know what HL Irish entails and the answer to that is I DO. I find it more interesting than English and I agree with other comments posted prior to this that it allows you to develop linguistically. Also another point. Without making huge changes to the syllabus in Irish maybe continous assesement in the language alone(Only irish) might take the pressure off people learning tons of prose and poetry. If I had a choice between English and Irish I would chose IRISH hands down!:D

JSK 252

QUOTE=Aero787]Get over it! The LC is just something you have to do. So what if they are compulsory, it's part of your education. The reality is that you will use very little of what you study for LC later in life.

In 4th year, I began to have a dislike for Irish and my teacher, but now in 6th year, I realise that I would like to be able to speak Irish and I don't really hate my teacher any more. After the LC, I will learn to use Irish properly. I'm ashamed that I'm not that good at Irish.

As for English, I can't stand the poetry or plays crap, because I simply like to sit down and enjoy plays/films without over-analysing things, but it's a part of my general education like everything else. I'll get over it.

A bit of advice I wish I had taken on board: Don't let stupid things like this bog you down. I used to, and now I regret it. Luckily for me I won't have problems getting points for my desired courses, but if I hadn't let stupid things p*ss me off, I might do a lot better.

At the moment, my French teacher drives me insane. I'm hoping for an A in the LC so I'm going to Essential French, and doing nothing in his class. Problem sorted, I did more French in one class than in a year with him. He shows no respect to me (ever since I asked to leave his class), so why should I bother. He'll say to some guys "Oh, I'm sure you'll know that, you're a genius" in a smarmy voice. Then he'll say to me "Eh, (my full name) what does that mean?" like a ********. I don't say a word anymore because I'm just sick of it. He tests my patience for sure!

College will be a fresh start for all of us. I can't wait![/QUOTE]

Hey another corkman (EICK). Im into aviation too! I went to Alliance Francaise for my junior certificate this year even though i didnt really need it because Im fairly good at french and got an A HL. I agree totally with you. What can you do about it! We have to deal with it and thats it. Maybe in the next few years when Fine Gael get in(Hopefully) we might see modernisation of the state exams especially English.

What school do you go to anyway? and is a career as a pilot or aeronautical engineer on the cards?

smemon

DublinWriter wrote:

Sums it all up really. Spoken like a true 'Celtic Cub'.

People take so much pride in being Irish, but these days I'm struggling to find many points of difference between us and the British.

I don't care about Irish or how Irish is seen abroad. At the end of the day, it benefits very few people and is a financial burden on the economy if anything.

Why invest in Irish when the money could be used to keep hospitals open? It's important not to let pride get too far. Common sense decisions have to be made.

there's nothing wrong with British people, we speak the same language, we work with them.. and but for a few nuts in the north, have a friendly rivalry with them.

don't get me wrong, the tri-colour inspires, stirs and arouses people (not in that way ) but the language means nothing. It's irrelevent. We don't need it. If we're just hanging onto it just to be 'different', well then i think we have an ego problem.

DublinWriter

smemon wrote:

Why invest in Irish when the money could be used to keep hospitals open? It's important not to let pride get too far.

Why indeed. Let's take your argument to its logical conclusion and close down all the museums and art galleries. They're not making any money either.

smemon

DublinWriter wrote:

Why indeed. Let's take your argument to its logical conclusion and close down all the museums and art galleries. They're not making any money either.

it wouldn hurt. Having one supermuseum or super art gallery (ie all galleries merged as one) would be more profitable, it would make more sense.

people want everything under one roof, hence the success of shopping centres.

lets not fool ourselves here, Irish isn't needed. It's too local, it's not global. With globalisation kicking in, i think it's foolish trying to re-establish the language. 99% of people will never use it.

Gerard.C

It should DEFINATLY be compulsary because it is OUR language. So what if you never use it again?? I'd rather be talking Irish all day then learning why them mountains look like that or how old English that we don't understand is "Genius". You're Irish, learn Irish, 'tis as simple as that.

smemon

Gerard.C wrote:

It should DEFINATLY be compulsary because it is OUR language. So what if you never use it again?? I'd rather be talking Irish all day then learning why them mountains look like that or how old English that we don't understand is "Genius". You're Irish, learn Irish, 'tis as simple as that.

it's too late. there's no point in learning it now because nobody uses it.

It's like learning how to play snooker..with nobody else able to play it with.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

smemon wrote:

it wouldn hurt. Having one supermuseum or super art gallery (ie all galleries merged as one) would be more profitable, it would make more sense.

people want everything under one roof, hence the success of shopping centres.

Thats taking utilitarianism to the vertical limit to be honest. It's a pretty disgusting thought.