Hilltop Quad?

garmac

I'm 110% with everyone else on the fact that Pat can be quite gruff, aw f"£k it, IS gruff! But I do think that anyone who tries to do what he is doing in this country, with our restrictive legislation and still has the wontons to go ahead with it does deserve a bit of support(and in some cases charm lessons). That goes for every body, Courtlough, Hilltop, Lough Bo or wherever.
We need all we can get. Irrespective.
I personally know two people who took up clay shooting after getting hooked on a company day in Hilltop. As Billy connolly said "thats two more of us and two less of them", and that's no bad thing.

sidneyreilly

Are there any other (civilian) indoor full-bore pistol ranges in the country at the moment

Sparks

Not that I know of Sidney, but that's not what I was saying. I was referring to the notion of a range that lets Joe or Jane Public try "shooting" - not "fullbore pistol shooting", which frankly I'm not sure should be their first introduction to shooting anyway. I'm not sure smallbore pistol shooting should be either, and I'm still making up my mind on air pistol.

Thing is, pistols are just too damn pointable for beginners to safely use, in my honest opinion. Air pistols, maybe they get away with that because of them having the single lowest entry price to the sport and being as far from lethal as our stuff tends to get, and because they're rather long for pistols so you have some chance of catching them as the new shooter turns around without thinking. But I'm not sure if those cancel out the pointability factor or not yet.

Rifles, well, the shooter's lying down and hooked up by a sling and the barrel's long so it doesn't point so fast. Shotguns, well there you'd need to be more on the ball but they're still long enough to slow down the speed at which a newbie can accidentally point one at you if you're standing beside them. But pistols, well, there it's a heartbeat between pointed downrange and pointed downrangeofficer. That and newbies - not a great mix.


And yes, there are many other ranges that don't give the gruff service option for newbies, in disciplines from air pistol to shotgun to fullbore rifle.

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

Not that I know of Sidney, but that's not what I was saying. I was referring to the notion of a range that lets Joe or Jane Public try "shooting" - not "fullbore pistol shooting", which frankly I'm not sure should be their first introduction to shooting anyway. I'm not sure smallbore pistol shooting should be either, and I'm still making up my mind on air pistol.

Loads of people all over the world get their introduction to shooting with handguns; the difference between here and America (to pick the most obvious example) is that we don't have a critical mass of pistol shooters to pass on the 'knowledge'. Almost all the newly minted pistol shooters here are newbies (to pistols), and there's no great mass of experienced shooters out there to mentor and coach. If it wasn't for cheap air travel and the Internet, we literally would be starting from scratch.

Here's what I consider to be an excellent piece on taking a new shooter to the range to learn shooting with a pistol, written by an old hand who's done it plenty of times-
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2300211&postcount=9

...and here's the whole thread on The High Road-
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=187713

All going well legislation wise and in due time, I'd expect that starting someone off on pistols will be no more remarkable here than it is in other places.

.

Sparks

It's a good post Rovi, but from the point of someone who's spent about a decade instructing complete newbies at a rate of a few hundred a year, I'm not about to give one a small, pointable, easily-lethal firearm as a starting point. Look at what the old hand in that post said - a surprising number of newbies will turn around to talk about the shot with you after taking it. Believe me, for every one of them, there's another (if not another two) who will happily turn around to talk to you *before* taking the shot.

Could you start someone off on a pistol? Yes, you could (though as the post said, smaller the recoil, the better the start). Would you want to though? I know I would prefer to do it another way, thanks.

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Could you start someone off on a pistol? Yes, you could (though as the post said, smaller the recoil, the better the start).

SwissMiniGun!!

Sparks

Meh. Too small and too expensive I think. .22lr in a heavy pistol was more what he was on about.

sidneyreilly

Plenty of people are now starting on pistols. To be honest most of em are a lot easier to deal with and take better isntruction then some of the old rifle hands who have switched to pistol and have their own ways.

Anyone using pistols for first time, be they experienced shooters of other disciplines or never held a firearm before, need the very same attention.

Traumadoc

I have to agree with most of what has been said. Pat can be abit offhand when you meet him first, but he is a target for criminal types, he caught a guy casing the place in the past... when you get to know him he is very helpful and his prices are reasonable.

Vegeta

Lads if there were as many ranges in Irleland as there are in America do you think people would bother their hole going to one where they get treated poorly (alleged, i don't know anyone at any range, so my comments are not directed at any person).

cantona

With regard to introduction to pistols(Fullbore), anyone that I have introduced gets one to one instruction with me standing about a foot to the side and a foot back from their strong side.This puts me in a position to monitor their trigger finger and leaves me less than two feet from their elbow, which can be blocked if any unsafe actions are observed.If by chance they go to turn to their weak side you are still in a position to stop them without altering your stance.This would continue till the person was competent enough.

Kryten

Sparks wrote:

Other ranges have the same degree of accessibility garmac. Some even more so.

For pistol shooters? Name them. Midlands wont let visitors fire Pistol or full bore rifle, so they are out.

les45

N.I.T.S.A Newry, visitors are welcome, full bore club guns and ammunition are available .

benhurt1

moby10 wrote:

as long as he keeps running the place like that he is turning people away from the sport

I don't think an individuals attitude would turn a person away from the sport of shooting completely, it would just make them go elsewhere.....
If you play football and don't like the coach you transfer to another team....not give up football!

Sparks

sidneyreilly wrote:

Plenty of people are now starting on pistols. To be honest most of em are a lot easier to deal with and take better isntruction then some of the old rifle hands who have switched to pistol and have their own ways.

Yes, but anyone who has trained juniors can tell you, that's not because they're starting on pistols, it's because they've not shot before and so listen to the instructor more.

For pistol shooters? Name them. Midlands wont let visitors fire Pistol or full bore rifle, so they are out.

As I said, I wasn't talking about fullbore pistol but about shooting in general.
But since you ask, there are a few ranges where you can start with pistols - UCD (if you're a UCD student) (10m air pistol), WTSC (10m air pistol), NITSA (fullbore pistol), EARC (10m air pistol, 25m smallbore pistol), Comber (25m smallbore pistol, fullbore pistol), there are several.

Sparks

benhurt1 wrote:

I don't think an individuals attitude would turn a person away from the sport of shooting completely, it would just make them go elsewhere.....
If you play football and don't like the coach you transfer to another team....not give up football!

We've seen years of evidence to the contrary in DURC. I'd be surprised if other clubs haven't seen the same.

FlyOver

Vegeta wrote:

Lads if there were as many ranges in Irleland as there are in America do you think people would bother their hole going to one where they get treated poorly (alleged, i don't know anyone at any range, so my comments are not directed at any person).

The same could be said for other services in this country. It's going to take time for shooting sports in this country to develop. The Gardai here seem to think they have the right to practice their own type of law rather than observe what is actual law. It will probably take longer for the Gardai to get their act together in getting applications through and stop treating law abiding citizens like drive by assassins. But starting a range or gun club will be far from simple.

Sparks

It's not enough to just say it will take time though Flyover. You have to actually *do* something during that time. And there aren't that many (though there are a few) people doing what's needed right now (and there are a few who are actively undermining them at the same time - and I don't mean boards.ie saying that hilltop is less than what they expect for the money, I mean actual associations acting against clubs and the like).

Kryten

Sparks wrote:

Yes, but anyone who has trained juniors can tell you, that's not because they're starting on pistols, it's because they've not shot before and so listen to the instructor more.


As I said, I wasn't talking about fullbore pistol but about shooting in general.
But since you ask, there are a few ranges where you can start with pistols - UCD (if you're a UCD student) (10m air pistol), WTSC (10m air pistol), NITSA (fullbore pistol), EARC (10m air pistol, 25m smallbore pistol), Comber (25m smallbore pistol, fullbore pistol), there are several.

Fair enough! I have only been to NITSA and Hilltop. I stand corrected.

benhurt1

Sparks wrote:

We've seen years of evidence to the contrary in DURC.

Sparks...are you driving people away from DURC ?:D

Sparks

benhurt1 wrote:

Sparks...are you driving people away from DURC ?:D

I hope not!
We have had a few Range Officers over the years though whose styles didn't sit well with the students. The students just wandered off and didn't return, some of them decent shooters. This idea that people who get treated badly and leave aren't "proper, committed shooters" really does need knocking on the head, sharpish. Damn it, we spend half our time noting that there's not that many of us as it stands!

Sparks

And now we've run into libel territory. Conce if you know of the specific details of what you were discussing, that'd be one thing, but saying that you heard such-and-such in that way isn't fair comment, it's libel based on hearsay. If you want to make general comments about a person or a business, you have to be a bit more careful with them.

I've deleted the posts which were libellous and Samson's comment on one of them as it quoted your post.

flight93

Can a non experienced shooter rent a pistol in Hilltop and shoot it in the range there? If so what is the proceedure and what type of pistols?

Thanks

Bananaman

Flight93

I'm not 100% sure about a novice renting a pistol and shooting.

I would assume, as a minimum you would need to book in advance so Pat could organise an instructor and safety officer to go with you to the range.

On top of that I doubt if he is gonna just let any Tom, Dick or Harry have a gun regardless of what they do. I for one went to the club with an existing member and attended a number of novice events before he allowed me to hire a gun for the first time. Albeit I did not ask him to allow me to hire a gun until I had done a couple of novice events to be sure I was comfortable with it and had a basic understanding of what I was doing and that an RO or two were happy with my overall handling, muzzle control and appreciation for the safety concerns involved.

I have attended two competions in hilltop both of which had a novice pistol shoot.

As it was a large competition they had a large number of range officers on site on the day and so were able to offer such an event.

On both occasions there was an RO to each of the novices. One RO running the overall show and a couple more floating about behind.

On both of those occasions we were shooting .22 revolvers. When I eventually hired a revolver for the first time it was also a .22 revolver and remained so until I was pretty happy with my shooting of it.

Hope it helps.

FlyOver

Bananaman wrote:

I would assume, as a minimum you would need to book in advance so Pat could organise an instructor and safety officer to go with you to the range.

You make it sound so professional. What will happen is "someone" will be on the range with you. Plus find out who is in the know in that club and get on their good side.

Why would you have an instructor and a safety officer on the range?

Sorry, but my anger towards the way shooting sports in this country is so below par makes my teeth hurt!

jaycee

FlyOver wrote:

You make it sound so professional. What will happen is "someone" will be on the range with you. Plus find out who is in the know in that club and get on their good side.

Why would you have an instructor and a safety officer on the range?

Sorry, but my anger towards the way shooting sports in this country is so below par makes my teeth hurt!

flyover :

I'm just sitting here trying to figure out your responses (Quoted above ) So I'm wondering ..

1: Is the comment about being professional meant to be ironic or a compliment ..?

2: Why an Instructor and an RO ..? .. I would guess the poster meant a person who was both an Instructor and an RO. Either way ..where's the mystery in that ?, surely it is the prudent and safe course of action to have someone's firearm handling observed ,monitored and corrected if needed.

3: Getting on everyones "Good side " on a sporting shooting range is accomplished by demonstrating by action and attitude that you are safe in you practices. In my experience that takes a little while and is a form of earned mutual respect .

I support all things that move the shooting sports forward in a safe and professional manner , I don't understand your anger and would welcome your theorys on the proper way of doing things.