Isa (Jesus), a prophet of Allah the Sovereign Lord the Holy One, the Majestic

Hobart

T-1111111111111 wrote:

It seems that whatever I say it will be turned upside down. So I'm saying no more. In the end - my signature says it all.

If you find my rebuttals of your words tantamount to "Turning them upside down" I would advise to do as you say.

I addressed all of your points, your signature does not say it all, it says what you believe.

God bless you.

InFront

Surely there are better fora for this sort of debate? It's like one man bashing another over the head with the Qur'an and the other man bashing him with the bible.
Obviously both of you have deeply rooted faiths, it is good to have faith. But a bit of mutual respect wouldn't go amiss.

Hobart

InFront wrote:

Surely there are better fora for this sort of debate? It's like one man bashing another over the head with the Qur'an and the other man bashing him with the bible.
Obviously both of you have deeply rooted faiths, it is good to have faith. But a bit of mutual respect wouldn't go amiss.

Is it not prudent to constantly question your faith? What forum would you suggest. My stance is one of willing to be open to different interpretations on the Koran and other religous texts.

As for your assumption that I (I assume you are refeering to me) have a deep rooted faith. You could not be further from the truth. I have already said that I am not a Christian, if anything, my theological thoughts would lean more towards Islam than any other religion.

I also cannot understand you comment about respect. I have openly said that I respect T-11111111111's position with his faith, as I do all others. what I do not respect, is his intageable stance when it comes to questioning his beliefs in what the Koran says versus what others interpret it to mean.

InFront

Spirituality, I would have thought, since it covers more than just Islam.

This is essentially a forum about Islam, I don't see how the Trinity is relevent here (and I know you didn't start the thread). I wouldnt go into Buddhism and start a thread about Muhammad pbuh. No offence meant, I just don't get why we need a thread on the Trinity in Islam

Hobbes

InFront is correct. There are rules in the Islam forum that may stifle comments for discussion that another forum wouldn't.

Moving the thread to Spirituality.

Moderator -> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054980549

Schuhart

Hobbes wrote:

There are rules in the Islam forum that may stifle comments for discussion that another forum wouldn't.

Which is a topic all in itself.

Nevyn

Schuhart wrote:

Which is a topic all in itself.

Which would be suitible for disscussion in the feedback forum about the function of a forum rather then here.
Just because a thread has moved forums to allow for a larger scope of discussion it does not mean it will be unmonitored.
For those who have not posted in this forum before the charter and the rules for this forum may be found here.

Hobbes

Schuhart wrote:

Which is a topic all in itself.

Last comment on the subject but if you wish to discuss the moderation of the Islam forum you can do so within the rules thread of the Islam forum or on the feedback forum.

the_new_mr

I think that there are a few misunderstandings here.

In brief, Islam holds Jesus (peace be upon him) in very high esteem. Muslims believe that he is a Prophet but not the son of God. The Islamic belief, with respect to any Christians that may read this and with no intention to cause offense, is that a misunderstanding has led to the belief in the trinity. The verse already quoted in this thread from the Quran which reads:

An-Nisa:171
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender."

The spirit mentioned here is the angel Gabriel. So, Muslims believe that the understanding of the relationship between God, Jesus (peace be upon him) and Gabriel (known also as the holy spirit) was misunderstood.

Also, another point that was brought up on this thread was respect for others' beliefs. I think it is important to differentiate between respecting a belief and accepting it or agreeing with it and I think that a lot of misunderstanding as arisen on this thread because of this important difference. I respect the right for a Christian to believe what they want. I don't agree with their belief. Likewise, a Christian does the same in respecting my right to believe what I believe but not accepting or agreeing with it.

There were a few back and forth posts on this thread that didn't really accomplish anything. I hope that threads in the future do not follow such a pattern.

T-1111111111111

the_new_mr wrote:

Also, another point that was brought up on this thread was respect for others' beliefs. I think it is important to differentiate between respecting a belief and accepting it or agreeing with it and I think that a lot of misunderstanding as arisen on this thread because of this important difference. I respect the right for a Christian to believe what they want. I don't agree with their belief. Likewise, a Christian does the same in respecting my right to believe what I believe but not accepting or agreeing with it.

Exactly as you said. We respect other's peoples RIGHT OF HAVING A CHOICE, but if we also say that we RESPECT THEIR CHOICE OF BELIEF, then this for us would mean respecting the "so-called" divinity of Jesus, who from our perspective is not more divine that me and you, and respecting the trinity concept would lead to DISBELIEF in my opinion.

And I certainly don't want to become a nonbeliever. Therefore, I never did and never will respect the trinity nor the claim the Jesus is divine, cos he never was and never will be a divine person. And he will deny this himself on the day of jedgement (if not sooner).

And the whole world can go upside down, but I think if one RESPECTS all other systems of fate then one is AGREEING with them, which makes no sense. One can only RESPECT A RIGHT TO HAVE A CHOICE.

Hobart

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Therefore, I never did and never will respect the trinity nor the claim the Jesus is divine,

I actually respect your belief that this is what you truely believe. I also understand that the denial of Jesus being the son of God and that the Trinity is some sort of "mis-understanding" on behalf of Christians and Christian scholars, is a belief that you and others like you hold.

What actually goes against the grain somewhat with me is what you go on to say

cos he never was and never will be a divine person. And he will deny this himself on the day of jedgement (if not sooner).

You state the above as a "matter of fact", when you have no way of knowing wether it is true or not. You believe it, I understand that, but to actually state it as a matter of fact is both disrepectful and quite frankly ignorant.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

The spirit mentioned here is the angel Gabriel. So, Muslims believe that the understanding of the relationship between God, Jesus (peace be upon him) and Gabriel (known also as the holy spirit) was misunderstood.

That explains things very clearly. A second point you might have a perspective on is how much of an error this is perceived to be. An earlier post suggested belief in the Trinity to be an enormous blasphemy within Islam.

The Quran does seem to make it clear on many occassions that the idea that God had a son is a great error. But it also seems to suggest that sincere Christians may well be judged fit for paradise, and to generally express the view that 'People of the Book' are deserving of respect that others are not worthy of.

T-1111111111111 seems to be of the view that any exemption as regards salvation only applies to Christians that don't subscribe to the Trinity. Is that a generally accepted interpretation? Its just that I'd take it as read that any Christian would, at a minimum, hold Christ to be divine - which is surely the core error, from an Islamic perspective?

joseph dawton

I would find it amusing if it was not so tragic: Islam, Judaism and Christianity share the same root and worship the same god although with different names and there is no end to the conflict.

Neither Jews or Muslims recognise Jesus (Isa, Jeshua Ben Miriam) as the son of God. What is interesting is that neither did the early Christians (or at least most of them). The term 'Son of God' was not literal it was also used to describe Isiah or Moses, the rationalisation of the Christian cult into a roman controlled religion led to the deification of Jesus and later the semi-deification of Mary (Council of Ephesus) in order to absorb goddess worship that was still common.

Sadly most Christians know nothing of the history of Christianity and the various 'edits', 'bolt-ons' and 'removals' of beliefs during the 1st millenium. Modern Christianity is nothing like the original, and as such it is an amalgam of original Christianity, Mithrasism, Judaism and the Isis cult.

What I've just written would be regarded as blasphemy by many, but I have written is true. Jesus said "I am the son of man". Also when asked by Pilate if he was the son of God he said "It is you who says I am", never once did he use that term or explicitly claim to be a living God.

At the end of the day, the details of doctrine are not as important, whether Jew, Muslim or Christian as actually living by the Tora, Koran or New Testament teachings day to day. That is what counts with God, not what we profess to believe.

http://www.electricpublications.com

CrazySka

We respect other's peoples RIGHT OF HAVING A CHOICE, but if we also say that we RESPECT THEIR CHOICE OF BELIEF, then this for us would mean respecting the "so-called" divinity of Jesus, who from our perspective is not more divine that me and you, and respecting the trinity concept would lead to DISBELIEF in my opinion.

Theres a difference between respecting a persons beliefs and respecting a persons right to believe what they want. This seems to me your inherent problem.
lets say i believe in the trinity, the respect doesnt have to come from you accepting my beliefs in the trinity but simply for you to say to yourself "I dont believe in what he does, but what does it matter to me personally? His beliefs have no bearing on my own and vice versa. therefore he can believe what he wants"
Do you get what im saying?

I personally find your views offensive to my christian religion (your continual statements of belief as fact specifically) but now this thread has been moved to the Islam forum rather than spirituality and therefore i have no right to complain, the reason for this is because here in this islam forum i am a guest who does not subscribe to the same beliefs as the majority. therefore i would not be suprised if the muslim people here were offended if i posted the sections of my beliefs that islam disagrees with AS FACT.

DinoBot

john_dub wrote:

I personally find your views offensive to my christian religion (your continual statements of belief as fact specifically) but now this thread has been moved to the Islam forum rather than spirituality and therefore i have no right to complain, .......

I think it was moved from the Islam page to this one. So complain away

T-1111111111111

john_dub wrote:

Theres a difference between respecting a persons beliefs and respecting a persons right to believe what they want. This seems to me your inherent problem.
lets say i believe in the trinity, the respect doesnt have to come from you accepting my beliefs in the trinity but simply for you to say to yourself "I dont believe in what he does, but what does it matter to me personally? His beliefs have no bearing on my own and vice versa. therefore he can believe what he wants"
Do you get what im saying?

I personally find your views offensive to my christian religion (your continual statements of belief as fact specifically) but now this thread has been moved to the Islam forum rather than spirituality and therefore i have no right to complain, the reason for this is because here in this islam forum i am a guest who does not subscribe to the same beliefs as the majority. therefore i would not be suprised if the muslim people here were offended if i posted the sections of my beliefs that islam disagrees with AS FACT.

Well I want to ask you a question and the answer which Christianity give if one the most illogical ever (to me). Now you might find this offensive, but that's another story, but just I want to see some logic in this, so you can help me and many of the others who might feel that this is unlogical by giving a good answer (if there is one).

The question is:

If Christianity (or Christian Church) claim that Jesus died for the sins of (the whole) humanity (approx 2000 years ago) then how come then that (by Christian belief) every new born baby already has sins (is not sinless)?????

PS I have to add that Jesus never ever himself said these 2 things.

Please, explain that. Anybody. Explain this "logic".

DinoBot

T-1111111111111 wrote:

The question is:
If Christianity (or Christian Church) claim that Jesus died for the sins of (the whole) humanity (approx 2000 years ago) then how come then that (by Christian belief) every new born baby already has sins (is not sinless)?????
PS I have to add that Jesus never ever himself said these 2 things.
Please, explain that. Anybody. Explain this "logic".

Firstly, I think you need to leave logic out of this discussion

Can you please read up a bit on religious history before asking questions. A simple google search would have given you the answer to that one.

The reason why christian children are not born "sinless" is because the Original sin refers to the first sin committed by mankind, (ie Adam and Eve's sin) seen as the seed of future evil effects for the whole human race.

At a guess Id say you have very little exposure to other religions other than learning that all other religions are wrong, and people of other faiths are , well, all wrong too. Your world is a lovely shade of black and white :rolleyes:

Hobbes

john_dub wrote:

but now this thread has been moved to the Islam forum rather than spirituality and therefore i have no right to complain,

Actually I moved it out of the Islam forum (and away from the Christianity forum) so as people could comment on thier own religon without fear of breaking a charter.

the reason for this is because here in this islam forum i am a guest who does not subscribe to the same beliefs as the majority. therefore i would not be suprised if the muslim people here were offended if i posted the sections of my beliefs that islam disagrees with AS FACT.

They may well do but your not in the Islam forum. However I recommend you read this forums charter as well.

CrazySka

Exactly since when does "Logic" have a part in any religion.

Dinobots answered your question concisely there, if you want to get into logic on this then as you said your sig shows it all.

Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him.

Logically where did he come from? "Please, explain that. Anybody. Explain this "logic".".
People like you worry me man, imo you are to Islam what hardliners are to catholicism, its your kind of blinkered view and lack of acceptance and tolerance to others beliefs that has caused so many problems in the world.

edit: apologies didnt realise it had been moved, have read the charter and maybe what i said could come accross as aggressive apologies if it has

the_new_mr

Schuhart wrote:

A second point you might have a perspective on is how much of an error this is perceived to be. An earlier post suggested belief in the Trinity to be an enormous blasphemy within Islam.

The Quran does seem to make it clear on many occassions that the idea that God had a son is a great error. But it also seems to suggest that sincere Christians may well be judged fit for paradise, and to generally express the view that 'People of the Book' are deserving of respect that others are not worthy of.

T-1111111111111 seems to be of the view that any exemption as regards salvation only applies to Christians that don't subscribe to the Trinity. Is that a generally accepted interpretation? Its just that I'd take it as read that any Christian would, at a minimum, hold Christ to be divine - which is surely the core error, from an Islamic perspective?

There is no question that the belief in the trinity is blasphemous. As for who will be rewarded or punished, that is up to God and up to God Alone.

Well, here's a link that I think explains things better than I could myself.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016694

The last paragraph in that link states:

The Qur’an is clear about one point, that Allah will not punish any one unjustly; that He will not do even the least bit of injustice:

*{The word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My servants.}* (Qaf 50:29)

For this reason, we may expect that those who do not willfully reject the true religion of God, namely Islam—peaceful submission to the One and Only God and Creator of existence—will not be held accountable; and they will be judged on the basis of the principles of justice and mercy, considering the good beliefs they sincerely hold to be true.

And Allah knows best.

So, I guess the question of what does "willfully reject" mean? Is it knowing Islam properly and then deciding not to follow it? Only God knows for sure. I beieve that every individual owes it to themselves to go in pursuit of knowledge to decide for themselves what the truth is. But, like I said, only God knows who will be okay and who won't and it's not for me any other human being to pass judgement.

Schuhart

the_new_mr wrote:

There is no question that the belief in the trinity is blasphemous. As for who will be rewarded or punished, that is up to God and up to God Alone.

That’s a clear response, and a useful link. It seems consistent with the Quran passages that, on the one hand, require respect for ‘People of the Book’ and on the other hand make it clear that the idea of God having a son is seen as a great error. I suppose one way of putting it might be that Islam guarantees salvation for Muslims who practice their faith, but does not absolutely exclude the possibility of salvation for diligent Christians and Jews, so long as they have not ‘wilfully’ rejected Islam.

I understand your point that ‘wilful’ requires definition, and at its most restrictive would mean hardly any Christian could reasonably expect salvation. But, when you think about it, there’s scope even within each faith to get things so wrong that conceivably you’ll still be found to have backed the wrong horse. Consider, for example, the way that some Protestants would say that Catholicism is so much in error that it cannot be truly regarded as a Christian faith.

In comparison, I take it Christianity would usually be more dogmatic than this – i.e. that people would be expected to at the very least accept the divinity of Jesus, so that there would be no question at all of Muslims achieving salvation from the Christian perspective.

IT Loser

We know that Jesus died on the Cross, but Muhammad died in his bed. The sheer physical and psychological agony of Jesus' death convinces me that HE and NOT Muhammad is the TRUE Son of God.

Jesus always foretold his own death.

He forbade Simon-Peter from using force in the Garden of Gethsemanae.

On the contrary, Muhammad used force to protect his own hide.

MeditationMom

Just read this whole long thread - so much passion! I did not know about this battle about the trinity, between the two faiths. So much heated argument about "faith". Logic is out the window when it comes to religion. It seems everyone has agreed to that.

If one has faith, it means, "I don't know, but I trust". This is a wonderful, open state of mind to be in, in which by grace we may come to know the divine.

What we trust in, though, be it the Bible, the Qur'an, the Torah,etc -becomes a huge problem, when we suddenly realize that other people trust and have faith in something entirely opposite of what we believe in.

Why this doesn't make everyone burst out laughing and feeling free, I don't know. Instead people stab each other to death - this is not because they have faith, but because they pretend to know the truth!

IT Loser

If Jesus was a prophet of Alllah, then why didn't Jesus do Allahs bidding? Why didn't he deride the notion of the Trinity? Why did he not raise an Army to defend himself?

Answer
Jesus is the Son of God
It was Gods will that Jesus die.
Why did Mohammed not die as Jesus did?
Muhammed was a blasphemer who took advantage of his late arrival to make up his own version of events.
If The Torah and The Bible didn't exist, Muhammad wouldn't have had any ideas to corrupt and twist.
Mohammed liked to provide simple answers to simple questions.
Hence, he avoided the Trinity, realising that mobilising Peasant sympathies could be best achieved through simple, general ideas
Remind you of anyone?

IT Loser

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Hobbes, what is the problem here?
I did comment, and so did you?

Why are you so eager so lock the thread? Can you explain?

Now about the post.

I wonder why people simply cannot see that Almighty Allah is independent and far above and beyond any such thing like having a son or a daughter or a wife or anything, which He actually created?

When Jesus, peace upon him, on the Judgement Day, did he say to people that they should worship him, he will clearly deny it. His life began with a miracle (note: began, meaning he was created and never he is eternal nor he will be) and all the miracles he performed, like bringing the daed man back from death, were not his miracles, he of himself could do nothing, but by Allah's Permission and Power.

Personally, I think a human cannot say something that would be more blasphmeous that to say that Almighty God has a son. The most unbelievable statement ever.

Allah doesn't have a son because Allah doesn't exist.


God The Father has a Son.

His name is Jesus.

You see...Islam couldn't deny the power of Jesus, so they corrupted His presence into that of mere base Prophet. Blasphemy.

The very Existence of the Holy Trinity is PROVED by Mahamound when he attempts to twist the Holy existence of Jesus into that of some bit player. Blasphemy.

But the achievements of Jesus are too Powerful to dismiss so easily- and Mahamounds command to "Make God Your Agent" is merely a corruption of the Holy Scriptures:-

"Through Him, With Him, In Him, In the Unity of The Holy Spirit, All Power And Glory is HIS, Forever and Ever, Amen"

IT Loser

Schuhart wrote:

That’s a clear response, and a useful link. It seems consistent with the Quran passages that, on the one hand, require respect for ‘People of the Book’ and on the other hand make it clear that the idea of God having a son is seen as a great error. I suppose one way of putting it might be that Islam guarantees salvation for Muslims who practice their faith, but does not absolutely exclude the possibility of salvation for diligent Christians and Jews, so long as they have not ‘wilfully’ rejected Islam.

I understand your point that ‘wilful’ requires definition, and at its most restrictive would mean hardly any Christian could reasonably expect salvation. But, when you think about it, there’s scope even within each faith to get things so wrong that conceivably you’ll still be found to have backed the wrong horse. Consider, for example, the way that some Protestants would say that Catholicism is so much in error that it cannot be truly regarded as a Christian faith.

In comparison, I take it Christianity would usually be more dogmatic than this – i.e. that people would be expected to at the very least accept the divinity of Jesus, so that there would be no question at all of Muslims achieving salvation from the Christian perspective.

I willfully reject Islam and the Prophet Mahound. I am compelled to do so by the First Commandment.

stevenmu

IT Loser banned for proselytising, or maybe for trolling, I'm not entirely sure which.