Irish Company Invents Perpetusl Motion Machine

Sapien

I wouldn't bother anyone with this, but for the fact that it's just been on RTE 6-1 News.

The company's site.

Video about this new "technology".

The patent.

Son Goku

Sapien wrote:

I wouldn't bother anyone with this, but for the fact that it's just been on RTE 6-1 News.

God, if you're up there, please give people in the media some ability to understand science.

I love how constantly General Relativity, QFT, Evolutionary Biology, Genetics, Chaos..... show us new things about the universe and yet what gets reported on is this.

There wasn't a report on the Poincaré Conjecture, but there is on this.

EDIT: It may, may, be possible that they have made a reaonsably effcient energy source using magnets. (Although I really doubt it, since magnetic fields don't do work)
There is no doubt in my mind that they have not made a perpetual motion machine.

Sev

Well theyre pretty damn cocky.. they spent over 100,000e on a full page ad in the economist, laying down their "challenge".

Professor_Fink

Ok, I've just watched the video, but haven't read anything else, so this maybe a little premature.

I think what they are talking about is topological phases (in particular the Aharonov-Bohm effect), but I can't see how this can be used to produce energy.

pauln

I think they've shown themselves for the frauds that they truly are in this quote from their own video about their "invention".

Quite simply the analogy would be, you know, you walk to the top of the hill and you walk back down to the bottom of the hill, but in doing that you've gained energy, and it really is that simplistic.

Simplistic alright, as in not even having a basic understanding of leaving cert physics. How people like this ever get the media coverage they do is beyond me.

SkepticOne

Had a look at their patent application. What it seems to amount to is you have a magnet with some sort of shield over it. This shield is then moved away from the magnet effectively switching on and off the magnetic field for the area outside the magnet-shield assembly. The application mentions that this changing magnetic field can then be use to do work e.g. move an object.

The problem, of course, is that in order to block the magnetic field, the shield must be made of something like soft iron. But this would cause the shield to be attracted to the magnet, requiring a lot of energy to shift away. The application claims, however, to have invented a low energy way of doing this. By positioning another magnet next to the first, the "balance magnet", the shield does not require the same amount of energy to move.

My objection to this is that the presence of the second magnet lessens the amount of work that the first magnet can do by means of its magnetic field since the second magnet is also exerting a force on whatever external object is being moved by the assembly. You are no longer switching on and off a magnetic field but rather modifying one as far as external objects are concerned.

There would still be the problem of moving the shield from one magnet to the other. The shield would tend to settle over one magnet or the other and energy would be required to move it to the point in the middle between the two. You could reduce this effect by moving the two magnets closer together, but this would again lessen the effect of the amount of work that could be done by the external field.

The application does say that instead of the second magnet you could have a spring assembly or something to balance out the affect of the attraction of the magnet on the shield.

I think though that the the main problem is that the shield would become magnetised and the magnet demagnetised over the course of operation.

In their interview they said that they came across the idea by chance while working on something else. In the sb post of may, they said that they were working on kinematic energy for devices. It does look like something that might emerge from this sort of work.

Anyway, if what they are saying works, that is great. No more paying for energy. If it is just a big scam, then a lot of gullible people will learn a hard lesson.

I like the way they talk on their website about the "convenience" of not having to refuel your car. No mention of the sheer expense of it.

DrNuyenVanFaulk

Well, I had a friend who gave €600 to a fraudulent bike company on the internet that looked very real, but not as real as this crowd. I say, scam all the way. But since they showed their faces, I guess maybe not.
I'm doing an MSc. in High Energy Astrophysics, and to me this sounds more like marketing jazz than science.
Here's a hint, if Plan A didn't work, what makes you so confident in Plan B!?

Urinating into the eyeball of society. I wish I had four hands.... so I could give that proposal FOUR THUMBS DOWN!

DrNuyenVanFaulk

Son Goku wrote:

EDIT: It may, may, be possible that they have made a reaonsably effcient energy source using magnets. (Although I really doubt it, since magnetic fields don't do work)

Magnetic fields not doing work. Does that mean that a charge in a B field does the work itself? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything here, it's a genuine question. There is a certain amount of work done in moving the charge which only happens in the presence of the B field. Doesn't this mean the B field does work?

It's a long time since I read my electro-mag notes! lol!

DrNuyenVanFaulk

Oh wait, I'm remembering something. If the magnetic force is a conservative force, so then the amount of work done is zero? Aw man, I feel stupid again. Back to the books... uh, right after I finish my thesis! lol!

DrNuyenVanFaulk

lol, I'm so embarrassed! Okay, I see now, B field perpendicular to motion of charge. Changes direction only, not the velocity. Christ I'm a dummy!

HAHAHAHA! Maybe I should go work for these guys! I could probably sprout anything out of my gob and they'd believe me!

Son Goku

DrNuyenVanFaulk wrote:

Magnetic fields not doing work. Does that mean that a charge in a B field does the work itself? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything here, it's a genuine question. There is a certain amount of work done in moving the charge which only happens in the presence of the B field. Doesn't this mean the B field does work?

When a particle moves in a Magnetic Field no work is done by the Magnetic Field at all.
There is still work done by the particle, but not as much as one would think.
Basically the particle only does as much work as it would have had the Magnetic Field not been there at all.

joe_chicken

O... My... God..... why, o why, would they pick this story up.... it really is a slow news week

/.

Wired

I'm getting more and more annoyed by this story as it gets bigger... someone, quick, prove them wrong.... please

DeVore

I've been investigating this this morning. I couldnt sleep (still getting over Jetlag and a heavy weekend).

I'm about to post there now, I think its a very well constructed hoax.

DeV.

Jaden

Taken From:

http://www.steorn.net/en/coverage.html

**************************************
Press Coverage
Steorn Announce "Free Energy" Technology

Irish company Steorn have announced a revoloutionary free energy
technology. More
The Guardian | 1 April 2006
**************************************

Note the date. Enough said.

DeVore

In fact, I no longer see a register button on their forums, perhaps I'm blind.

I'll recount what I've done and you can see what you make of it yourselves.

I started with the Wayback Machine (www.archive.org) and found that they have reinvented themselves from an e-commerce and hosting company to test and market energy solutions to what they have today. Interestingly they used to use www.steorn.com but only recently have moved to .net.

I phoned their old offices in Fumbally court and they were there but they arent now. They ARE in the Docklands Development park which is where things get really interesting, but I'm jumping ahead of myself.

I started to look at the edges of their website, the places where it meets other websites. They claim to have sponsored a DIT student
I phoned DIT and they do have a Dr Nolan and the DIT does link back to them on this site: www.dit.ie/studententerprise

All looks legit so far...

Back to Docklands. I used to own/work in Spin Solutions and we had a very good relationship with Docklands Innovation Park, we did their website.
So I rang a few people in there but couldnt get to talk to them at the moment, the very helpful lady at the front desk DID confirm that there was a Steorn Ltd but couldnt tell me what they do. She DID give me a number for them which is very different from the one on their website. When I rang it I got a company switch and waited to talk to someone. When she answered she used a company name that wasnt Steorn. Also the voice mail system says "welcome to Bejorn" too. try it yourself, the number is 8069559.

When I got through to a woman there she answered with another completely different company name. I asked her to repeat it and she did. I asked her if that was not Steorn and she got flustered and said it was and that that was what she had been saying. I explained I was doing company market research (true enough) and asked her some simple questions about what they did they and she clammed up, took my number and name and told me someone would be back to me. The number doesnt seem to work any more apart from the voice mail system.

www.steornwatch.com arose within 3 days of their ad, that seems remarkably fast for a sceptical site.

All of this is making me serious doubt if we arent all being taken for a ride one way or another...

DeV.

DeVore

That number has been cleaned, the recording has been rerecorded and the secretary is now answering with Steorn Ltd.

DeV.

DeVore

Am I missing something or is there no way to register for an account on their forums, I want to post a link to my findings here.

DeV.

petes

Think this is the page to register.

http://www.steorn.net/forum/people.php?ReturnUrl=http://www.steorn.net/forum/index.php?p=3

DeVore

This membership application form does not grant immediate access to the site. All membership applications are reviewed by an administrator before acceptance. You are not guaranteed access to the application by filling out this form.

F*ck that then, I'm not giving this boyos my email nor awaiting their "pleasure".

DeV.

petes

I registered with an email address and it let me in to post straight away. Obviously used an alternate email addy.

DeVore

Something smells to high heaven about this, I'm not going to waste any more time on it, I have things to attend to today but the amount of investgation I did took all of 10 minutes and some cop on. Pity RTE havent got the noodle to do the same.

DeV.

aphex™

They're in Unit 18, docklands innovation park.

I think it was on the video of the news item on rte.ie... no signs of modified electric-magnetic cars outside!

meglome

I just talked to a friend of mine, won't mention names here but these Steorn guys have done work for him for years although nothing to do with this 'free' energy technology. I asked him if he thought this was for real and he tells me that is is. He knows these guys very well and he honestly believes that this works. He put it like this to me, if you input 1 duck-egg the system generates 1800. I know this guy for a long time, maybe 15years and I know that he is telling me the truth. Now maybe they have fooled him but he also knows the Steorn guys for years so I dunno. I really believed this to be a load of bull**** but now I'm not so sure. I don't know anything about the physics involved in this but the word I'm getting is they are genuine.

aphex™

OK great, found a page with lots of info, and also links to their patent applications... which describes the contraption in great detail.

Click Here

lostexpectation

DeVore wrote:

In fact, I no longer see a register button on their forums, perhaps I'm blind.

I'll recount what I've done and you can see what you make of it yourselves.

She DID give me a number for them which is very different from the one on their website. When I rang it I got a company switch and waited to talk to someone. When she answered she used a company name that wasnt Steorn. Also the voice mail system says "welcome to Bejorn" too. try it yourself, the number is 8069559.

When I got through to a woman there she answered with another completely different company name. I asked her to repeat it and she did. I asked her if that was not Steorn and she got flustered and said it was and that that was what she had been saying. I explained I was doing company market research (true enough) and asked her some simple questions about what they did they and she clammed up, took my number and name and told me someone would be back to me. The number doesnt seem to work any more apart from the voice mail system.

www.steornwatch.com arose within 3 days of their ad, that seems remarkably fast for a sceptical site.

All of this is making me serious doubt if we arent all being taken for a ride one way or another...

DeV.

bejorn steorn.... she could be that australia women and she misheard her accent....

limey_tank

DeVore wrote:

I started to look at the edges of their website, the places where it meets other websites. They claim to have sponsored a DIT student
I phoned DIT and they do have a Dr Nolan and the DIT does link back to them on this site: www.dit.ie/studententerprise

What I find interesting is that they sponsored a marketing student, not a science or engineering student.

Another point is that the hype is greater than the demonstrated products.
Why not:
1. Write the patent.
2. Develop the prototype.
3. When the patent application is secure, start manufacturing.
4. If the product is that good, it'll sell.

There's a market out there for highly efficient generators, forget the hype and let the product prove itself, worry about how and why it works later.

These guys are decrying science too much....I am super dubious.

GMcD

1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat.

Blowfish

GMcD wrote:

1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat.

indeed, until somebody came along and provided proof that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe or flat, so far Steorn have still shown no proof whatsoever, only heresay.

limey_tank

This is why peer review exists. It stopped cold fusion (for the right reasons). While peer review isn't perfect, it's willing to admit it's wrong and provides constant positive progress towards truth. Steorn are trying to circumvent the usual peer review process and initiate their own.

Under normal circumstances, you don't get to pick the reviewers. In a court case, does the accused get to pick the jury? This is yet another reason to be suspicious.

meglome

As I said in my previous post a friend of mine has seen this running and he reckons it works. They've had it for over a year but have been figuring out how it works and how to measure it. It seemingly was invented by an engineer who was working on something else and created it somewhat accidentally. I'm as dubious about it as anyone is but I believe my friend so I dunno.

Professor_Fink

meglome wrote:

As I said in my previous post a friend of mine has seen this running and he reckons it works. They've had it for over a year but have been figuring out how it works and how to measure it. It seemingly was invented by an engineer who was working on something else and created it somewhat accidentally. I'm as dubious about it as anyone is but I believe my friend so I dunno.

I'm starting to believe that Steorn believe that their device works, but that is a completely different thing from it actually working.

Since they don't seem to be claiming new physics, they can't have a pertual motion machine of the first kind. It doesn't matter how cleverly you arrange magnetic fields, without new physics, it is impossible.

fluppet

DrNuyenVanFaulk wrote:

But since they showed their faces

... and revealed (what seems to be) their home addresses on the patent application.

meglome wrote:

As I said in my previous post a friend of mine has seen this running and he reckons it works. They've had it for over a year but have been figuring out how it works and how to measure it.

What is in their patent application is only part of the device. This is because they cannot apply for a patent for the whole device due to the requirement that a working model of perpetual motion machines is produced, which they are unable to do.

DeVore wrote:

Pity RTE havent got the noodle to do the same.

It wasn't just RTE. This story was reported on Slashdot, many physics news websites, and other newspapers around the world.