What are the Pro's and Con's of Seeking Court-ordered Maintenance Payments. [COMPs]

ircoha

[I will edit this opening piece as the post develops so as a new reader will know whats covered further down.]

It would be nice also to get some input on this from the members who can bring a legal perspective to bear on this.

Thank you in advance.


Abbreviations:
COMPs: Court-Ordered Maintenance Payments.
SPA: Single Parent Allowance

Introduction:
As a grandfather, given the title of this post, the reason for posting should be self-evident.
However it is also clear that there are many members of Boards.ie who are in a quandry re seeking COMPs.
This post is aimed at trying to address their concerns also.

Having reviewed many of the related post on the topic there are mixed views on seeking
Court-Ordered Maintenance Payments [COMPs].

What I am hoping is that the members will use this post to gather together, in one post, the relevant opinions that will perhaps help the existing and future members with this very emotive issue.

For the sake of clarity, in this thread the term single parent refers to the parent that has the child(ren) and absent parent refers to the other.

One question which is not clear is if a court orders the payment of maintenance and the absent parent defaults, does the liability continue to accrue and remain on a record somewhere as outstanding in the same way as if you default on a consumer credit loan or do the liability just disappear?


Practical Operational Matters:
1: A common problem is that the absent parent will make some contribution while the single parent claims single parent allowance [SPA] which leaves the receipient open to blackmail by the absent parent, if court-ordered maintence is threatened.

2: Having the absent parent's name on the Birth cert: Is this relevant to securing a claim?

3: If the COMPs start and then stop and the SPA has ceased or been reduced via means test, how long does it take to get the SPA back to full amount and do they back date it or is there a "waiting period"?

4: How do you prove the COMPs start/stop?

Useful links:
www.solo.ie

Member Inputs:
1: Trinity1 raises the notion treating voluntary payments as gifts.
[The current limit [FA2006] per annum is the first €1,270 for each child as well as for the single parent.]

Trinity

a very hepful thread indeed. i have gathered a little information from a solicitor so it was a wee while back but I think (and i could very well be wrong) that a voluntary payment of maintenance without a court order is known as 'a gift'. And you cannot get into trouble for this while claiming one parent payment as it may be sporadic, it may be a very small payment etc

However where there is a court order for maintanence, you are obliged to tell the social welfare, or i am not sure if they are automatically informed by other agencies.

If in the event you have not informed the social that there is a court ordered maintenance and they 'find out', you will have to pay it back, a small deduction from your one parent book each week maybe 10€ so no lump sum. I suppose its not a big deal really i dont think they have locked anyone up for this yet, however i guess it would be embarrassing to be confronted? (personally)

The dilema is that while your partner may be ordered to pay maintenance, the amount that he gives you will most likely be deducted from what you get in one parent payment. Thus you are no better off financially, but no worse.

On principal i would rather get it off the father than off the state and that is why i personally am persuing my ex. Its matter of personal choice.

shoegirl

This is why I suggest having a flat rate "tax" on absent parents - this could then be channeled directly into lone parent payments which wouldn't then need to be means tested (as they are flat rate), and directly funded by absent parents. From anecdotal evidence of aquaintances I believe that there are a number of scenarios:

1) fear of losing secondary benefits such as rent subsidy and medical card
2) fear of losing entitlement to OPF payments altogether
3) occasionally also a fear that looking for payments from former spouses and partners would entitle that ex to greater rights with regard to children. Some women/men just don't want contact with the ex and don't seek money for fear that it will bring them back into their lives. Also a lot of women don't realise that (whether this is fair or not) unmarried fathers have no automatic rights to access their children, regardless of whether or not they contribute to their welfare
4) a minority have informal arrangements with absent fathers to evade detection by welfare - this does create indeed a "blackmail" type scenario where the absent parent can use the fact that welfare don't know about the payments to hold the parent to ransom. Also I do think it does lead to scenarios where the apparent incomes of those doing this informally does probably give them an effective higher income than many working people and undoubtedly this causes major anger and resentment.

The reason I suggest a flat rate payment is that if it isn't means tested then the parent would be free to go out and work with some financial basis. If the rate were fixed at current social welfare rates (around 190 for adult plus 1 child) this would give a reasonable monthly income of around 1800 a month for somebody earning the minimum wage and working 30 hrs a week, which in most parts of Ireland outside Dublin would be sufficient to pay rent if required and still make ends meet. If this was collected directly from a revenue collected "absent parent tax" then the cost to the state would be very low indeed, and most significantly, it would a) reduce the stress to the parents and b) ensure that those responsible pay for their own children rather than spreading the cost to the tax paying public in general.

I think this is probably a better alternative even to refundable tax credits, which would still have to be funded from somewhere, although you could change the title of the payment for those who work to the same thing.

Unfortunately to answer the questions posed by ircoha as they raise interesting dilemmas:

1. If the payment is informal then yes, the blackmail situation is real, but if the payment is mandated by a court and paid through an established source, once welfare know about it and its fixed, then it shouldn't be the case. As far as I am aware, from a legal perspective, whether or not a parent (usually father) pays for children they don't live with has any rights to access is down to whether or not they are or have been married to the other parent. If not, then I believe the situation is that they have no rights whatsoever, regardless of if and how much they contribute unless they have legally adopted the child or were appointed legal guardians. The rights and wrongs of this are a debate for another post, but I think the general feeling is that people who legally haven't made a committment to their children don't have rights over them. The problem of course occurs if a mother abandons her children and then turns up several years later - there is a real element of gender discrimination present, though in fairness I do think the system does more to allow fathers to wash their hands of responsibility.

2. I would presume that if the father's name is on the birthcert he is considered to be the legal father of the child unless he contests it in court. And if he is not then presumably it is possible to establish parenthood via DNA testing. How much this occurs in the real world I cannot tell you.

3. and 4. I don't believe there is a mechanism to legally monitor this, I think it is up to the custodial parent to communicate this back to the court. I presume they would need to produce every bank statement and receipt. Good point though - there isn't really a reliable way of proving non-compliance.

Of course the whole idea behind the Child Support Agency in the UK was to do all the above, but it failed due to a combination of factors. I do think however that the main flaw of CSA was that money was not collected via revenue, which would have simplified things a great deal, and also the problem was that they were basically becoming the middleman between warring parents, I think my suggestion that Revenue Collects the contributions and then redistributes back to OPFs is simplier and more workable.

The only real weakness I see is ability to pay assessments in cases where the absent parental income is very high and they can afford to pay more than the minimum amount. On the other hand, I do know of a case where a separated spouse is being screwed for maintenance of his ex wife's children, even though only 1 of them is his, and 2 to her previous marriage, simply because he is better off than her other ex-husband! This is the kind of unfairness that maybe could be resolved through a claims moderator perhaps?

Ba_barbaraAnne

From experience, if the parent paying maintenance by court order defaults on a payment, it is up to the other parent to go to the court to seek enforcement of the court order. It is best if maintenance payments are payed through the court office so that the court has a record of payment made/not made. In this case, if payments are not received, the parent who is receiving, (or not receiving) the money goes to the court clerk's office and signs a form, following which the court issues an arrest warrant and deals with the defaulting parent without any further input from the other parent. This may result in either the absent parent paying up immediately, or a custodial sentence imposed for non-compliance with a court order.

When a parent is receiving Lone Parent payments from the state, the Maintenance Recovery Unit of Social Welfare can go after the absent parent to recover some or all of the money paid by the state. The absent parent is given the choice of paying a sum of money to the other parent directly, or paying it to the Revenue/Social Welfare (I'm not sure which). In either case, the parent in receipt of Lone Parent benefit continues to recieve the same amount of money, but it will either be a reduced payment by Social Welfare with the absent parent's contribution making up the difference, or the full Social Welfare payment with the absent parent giving his/her contribution directly to the government.

K-9

In reply to ircoha 4 main points:

1. This does happen but there is a responsibility on the single parent to report the maintenace. Otherwise instead of blackmail it's social welfare fraud. The father may also need proof that he is paying this for Loans, legal reasons. Unfortunately for fathers with the adversarial legal system often they need proof that they're paying it.

2. A fathers name on the Birth Cert does not affect SPA. Nor does it have to be for COMP. A paternity test would be available if there was doubt over the father. An unmarried father has no rights just by having his name on the cert. He has to apply for guardianship as a seperate issue, access as seperate issue and indeed an application by the SP for COMP would be seperate again. One does not depend on the other tho if all 3 cases where before the court it usually would be heard all together.

3. I remember reading something about this on the Rollercoaster site last year. The SPA are very slow to adjust for non payment of COMP. The opinion seems to be from them that you have a right to look for the back maintenace so do that first. Basically they say tough. Unfair but thats the system.

4. COMP's are usually paid directly thro the courts office or sometimes the single parents bank statements so there would be a record if it wasn't paid. It would be advisable for the father to have evidence of payment also.

Shoegirl - Your idea is good in principle. I would have two problems thought. If the SPA wasn't means tested a woman who had a high income would get the same payment as a mother with no job. Thats the problem if u take away means testing. It has it's faults but it it does discriminate favourably less well of people. Again the flat rate payment payment by absent parents could be unfair. The average maintenance now is approx. €80 but a man on the dole couldn't afford this. If you make it any lower it probably wouldn't pay for the new SPA. One of the few advantages of the present system is it is means based. The idea of a separate agency/Revenue to monitor/administer it is good tho.

Kildrought

There seems to be a link in some posts between One Parent Family Allowances (OPFA) and Child Maintenance. (note payment of OPFA is not related to marital status).

All parents are legally obliged to maintain their children; where a child is primarily resident with one parent, that parent is deemed to be maintaining their child and the non-resident parent is required to make a payment to the resident parent to fulfil their obligation.

Child maintenance is not solely payable where one parent is claiming OPFA.

I would agree however that the current method of seeking child maintenance needs to be substantially simplified; this could be done simply through the taxation system by levying a % of the non-resident parent's income and paying it to the resident parent.

Since it is a % of income rather than flat rate; it allows for falls as well as increases of income over a period of time and would also cover for periods of unemployment/social welfare claims.

Nevyn

There already is the option for the parent with whom the child is not normally resident to pay money directly to the dept of socail and family affairs.

It should not be done with in taxiation but the prsi system and as it stands
once a parent has a child for one over night a year they can clain single parent's tax free allowance in addition to thier standard tax credits.

Money paid as child maintaince is not tax deductible but that paid to a spouse is.

Lone parent's payment is a set ammount it is the supplemental payment of FIS that is means tested.

Kildrought

Why PRSI? that doesn't make sense?

Payment of Child Maintenance directly to Social Welfare is only applicable where OPFA (or other SW benefit) is being claimed. Parents in full employment who are not claiming SW don't gain by this action.

The additional tax credit for one parent families doesn't cover child maintenance; don't understand your point here?

Spousal maintenance is a different kettle of fish - the legal obligation is not as clear cut. In the case of child maintenance; since children cannot maintain themselves their parents must do so. In the case of Spousal maintenance, the other spouse may or may not be able to maintain themselves; also spousal maintenance can only be claimed by those who were married whereas child maintenance is payable regardless of the martial status of the child's parents.

Nevyn

If you have any of your children for at least one over night a year you can claim
single parents tax credit.

If a single parent is in full employment they would still be getting thier one parent family payment.

The option of payment driectly to the dept of family and social affairs does happen to cut out contact between the parents, to stop bickering and resentment or payments being with held and does not effect the regular income of the parent with the child.

Trinity

Thaedydal wrote:

If you have any of your children for at least one over night a year you can claim
single parents tax credit.

If a single parent is in full employment they would still be getting thier one parent family payment.

The option of payment driectly to the dept of family and social affairs does happen to cut out contact between the parents, to stop bickering and resentment or payments being with held and does not effect the regular income of the parent with the child.

Actually you dont get one parent payment if you earn over a certain amount -i think 400 euro is the going rate.

Its mean tested so you can get all, some or none of it depending on your income.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/social-welfare-payments-to-families-and-children/one_parent_family_payment/?searchterm=one%20parent

Kildrought

The option of payment driectly to the dept of family and social affairs does happen

Can you provide your source for this? I have never heard of SW acting as intermediary for child maintenance payments where no SW was claimed by the primary care giver.

to cut out contact between the parents, to stop bickering and resentment or payments being with held and does not effect the regular income of the parent with the child

I would also very much doubt (but willing to be proved wrong!) that Dept of SW would be doing this for charitable reasons.

Nevyn

Trinity1 wrote:

Actually you dont get one parent payment if you earn over a certain amount -i think 400 euro is the going rate.

Its mean tested so you can get all, some or none of it depending on your income.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/social-welfare-payments-to-families-and-children/one_parent_family_payment/?searchterm=one%20parent

Thanks for that Trinity.

Kildrought I can't find a lijnk to info about but I know two sets oc co parents where this is the case.
The ammounts are less the the ammount being paid for the maintianing of a roof over the children's head and the father in each case just would not
lodge money into accounts belonging to the mother's of the children
but wanted to pay some maintaince and so pay it directly to the dept social and family affairs.

Kildrought

I suspect that one of two things is happening in the cases you describe; either the resident parent is claiming OPFA or the payments are being made via the District Court.

K-9

Quote ircoha - Practical Operational Matters:
1: A common problem is that the absent parent will make some contribution while the single parent claims single parent allowance [SPA] which leaves the receipient open to blackmail by the absent parent, if court-ordered maintence is threatened.

2: Having the absent parent's name on the Birth cert: Is this relevant to securing a claim?

3: If the COMPs start and then stop and the SPA has ceased or been reduced via means test, how long does it take to get the SPA back to full amount and do they back date it or is there a "waiting period"?

4: How do you prove the COMPs start/stop?

Kildrought - The reason there was alink between SPA and COMP's was because the original specifically mentioned the effect they have on each other. I don' think it was suggested that it wasn't payable if no SPA was being claimed. The % idea is good but the debate on how much would be very interesting. I can just imagine some of the excuses and not necessarily from lower income father's. "I have 2 Houses, 3 cars and 4 holidays. I can't pay 10%". Reminds me of the voter's who voted for the Socialist Party in a bye-election because of bin charges. 3 cars outside the drive but couldn't pay bin charges even though most counties had them anyway!


Quote Thaedydal - If a single parent is in full employment they would still be getting thier one parent family payment.

As Trinity points after u earn €400 u get nothing. After €143 )Don't know if they've adjusted this limit) they reduce the SPA payment. So that is not strictly tue.

Trinity

Kildrought wrote:

I suspect that one of two things is happening in the cases you describe; either the resident parent is claiming OPFA or the payments are being made via the District Court.

I know of one case where the court pays the maintenance by check to the mum and the guys labour/dole is cut at source for this.

Not sure if thats relevant to this conversation though sorry

Kildrought

... one case where the court pays the maintenance by check to the mum and the guys labour/dole is cut at source for this

There would certainly be more than one case meeting this description! A garnishee order such as this can be taken out for persistent defaulters.

I can just imagine some of the excuses and not necessarily from lower income father's. "I have 2 Houses, 3 cars and 4 holidays. I can't pay 10%".

I have no doubt - hence the reason I suggest it is deducted at source in the same way tax is deducted from your income.

K-9

Trinity1 wrote:

I know of one case where the court pays the maintenance by check to the mum and the guys labour/dole is cut at source for this.

Not sure if thats relevant to this conversation though sorry

I suppose its relevant if the COMP is defaulted. There can be an attachment order with the non resident parents employer as well for defaulters so the Employer deducts it from wages.

Though why these can't be done from the start when it is originally awarded I don't know.

Quote Kildrought - I would agree however that the current method of seeking child maintenance needs to be substantially simplified; this could be done simply through the taxation system by levying a % of the non-resident parent's income and paying it to the resident parent.

Is there any particular reason the maximum maintenance for a child is €150?

Kildrought

Is there any particular reason the maximum maintenance for a child is €150?

This isn't the case, the maximum that can be claimed through the District Court is €150 per child per week; any thing higher than that has to be claimed via the Circuit Court.

K-9

Thanks Kildrought. That's the first I've heard of that. Kind of wondered why it was stated on alot of different sites that it was €150.

Trinity

I was trying to claim maintenance from abroad but have given up. Applied in August. The authorities want a full address and proof of paternity.

Its not that its not worth it, but it breaks the spirit to have to do it this way. This man has held his son, changed his nappy, had him over night and held him at the christening while the priest wet his head. Its not like he doesnt know the child.

He knows i have struggled financially since the child was born but if he doesnt care less where i am getting the money to feed/dress/educate his child then i give up i honestly do.

Nevyn

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/(WebFiles)/3A55D5FEB1C1E2B7802572840055819F/$FILE/Maintenance%20procedures in the District Court - Feb 2006.pdf

peckamsprings

Ba_barbaraAnne wrote: »

From experience, if the parent paying maintenance by court order defaults on a payment, it is up to the other parent to go to the court to seek enforcement of the court order. It is best if maintenance payments are payed through the court office so that the court has a record of payment made/not made. In this case, if payments are not received, the parent who is receiving, (or not receiving) the money goes to the court clerk's office and signs a form, following which the court issues an arrest warrant and deals with the defaulting parent without any further input from the other parent. This may result in either the absent parent paying up immediately, or a custodial sentence imposed for non-compliance with a court order.

When a parent is receiving Lone Parent payments from the state, the Maintenance Recovery Unit of Social Welfare can go after the absent parent to recover some or all of the money paid by the state. The absent parent is given the choice of paying a sum of money to the other parent directly, or paying it to the Revenue/Social Welfare (I'm not sure which). In either case, the parent in receipt of Lone Parent benefit continues to recieve the same amount of money, but it will either be a reduced payment by Social Welfare with the absent parent's contribution making up the difference, or the full Social Welfare payment with the absent parent giving his/her contribution directly to the government.

That isvery intersting but if you take into consideration a single person on social welfare, living on their own, they will receive social welfare payments, which is nearly as much as lone parents but they also receive rent allowance, but if you are a single parent, the maintenance will be deducted. How fair is that? I'm a single mother who tries to get of my bum and go to work part-time but am punished for it.

Dublin_Gunner

1: A common problem is that the absent parent will make some contribution while the single parent claims single parent allowance [SPA] which leaves the receipient open to blackmail by the absent parent, if court-ordered maintence is threatened.

SPA can still be claimed even if maintenance is being paid. It is merely pro-rata'd.

2: Having the absent parent's name on the Birth cert: Is this relevant to securing a claim?

Has no relevance in relation to maintenance.

3: If the COMPs start and then stop and the SPA has ceased or been reduced via means test, how long does it take to get the SPA back to full amount and do they back date it or is there a "waiting period"?

I'm sure this is dealt with on a case by case basis, so there is no finite time for these being dealt with.

4: How do you prove the COMPs start/stop?

Have them paid directly into a bank account. Its beneficial for both sides. If its defaulted, the beneficiary has a record that it wasn't paid, if there is a case where the receiving party is claiming it wasn't paid / paid in full, the payer of the maintenance has a record proving it was. (as happened to me).
I am a father, paying maintenance, and I do it every month via credit transfer on-line. I have a record of ALL of my payments since my daughter was born 5 years ago.

If in some instances the money is paid by cash - print off 2 receipts, and get both parties to sign. Keep one each. Simple.

Having it paid through the court should really only be kept for serious cases where the debtor is a repeat offender so to speak IMO.

pinkfloyd34

just wondering if the absent parent has the kid(s) stay with him 2 nights a week, money is being spent on the child (food, entertainment), will this be taken into account? Does he still have to pay maintenance? he has the child 1/3 of the week.

Plus if the mother has other children by a different father how does the absent parent know if his maintenance money is being spent on stuff for the kids that are not his?

K-9

pinkfloyd34 wrote: »

just wondering if the absent parent has the kid(s) stay with him 2 nights a week, money is being spent on the child (food, entertainment), will this be taken into account? Does he still have to pay maintenance? he has the child 1/3 of the week.

Well the childs expenses should be included in the fathers (usually) expenses in the statement of means. In practice, I don't think much account is taken of it.

pinkfloyd34 wrote:

Plus if the mother has other children by a different father how does the absent parent know if his maintenance money is being spent on stuff for the kids that are not his?

I think you have to look at it as money going into a pool of income. As long as the maintenance is being used towards the childs expenses, then it is going towards that child.

Fathersrights

I would like to feel its that clean cut. the social wefare only hand out money if you have been renting for six months. i am a father and i,m separated which at the time was not my desicion either. so how i am i supossed to pay money .i had to live for six months on dole with no rent allowance. i had 2 kids aged 9 and 12 coming into me 6 days from 14, now why should the mother get money when she can get childeren alloance pay only a few bob to the councle for a house. and if your house is too big for one person they welfare tell you to get something smaller.then the courts won't let you have your kids if you don't have the space for them. its hard for dads too. when people are both on welfare it is meant to be what you can basically survive on, hence why people get rent allowance. so how or why should a father who takes his kids pay when on the dole should not pay money.n if so the childless single men/women are getting more then they should. Cause if a father is expected to keep himself and his kids part time on less then a single person is this fair......

LegacyUser

ive been paying maintnance for my five year old since he was one when me and hes mum split.ive always paid the 50 euro up to 10 weeks ago when i started paying 40 euro ive got the child 2 days the week and im on disability benifit i had to lower her money due to the budget rent increase and the childs entertainment.i was in court yesterday and her weekly income for the week was 500 euro .she commited pergury 3 times in front of the judge when she was questioned on her financial statement .he told her solictor that does your client realise what she has just done and then done nothing to punish her.when it was my turn i made bits of her solictors questions the only thing the judge couldent understand why i pay 10 euro aweek for my gym .i dont drink or smoke i told the judge another man would spend that on apint and apacket of fags in 2 mins .i showed my empty bank account to him i feed myself on 40 euro aweek and i have a car loan and ahire purcase loan and i run a home with all the cost he gave her 45 euro aweek the arrears and to pay her leagal fees where the **** is the justice in that i told the judge hes court was a joke he held me in contempt of court and id say it again if he gave me a month in prison ha

LegacyUser

If he's on the dole and gives me maintenance from his dole and they cut that from my lone parents they're effectively taking his money and not giving it to me... Can somone on the dole be asked to contribute? It's not like the twenty euro per kid pays for everything so it comes out of my basic payment why shouldn't he give me some of his dole and I get to keep it.

K-9

Ellybelly wrote: »

If he's on the dole and gives me maintenance from his dole and they cut that from my lone parents they're effectively taking his money and not giving it to me... Can somone on the dole be asked to contribute? It's not like the twenty euro per kid pays for everything so it comes out of my basic payment why shouldn't he give me some of his dole and I get to keep it.

You may be able to keep it, if it is less than Rental expenses, but it may affect any Rent Allowance you get.

One-Parent Family Payment-Information from CitizensInformation.ie

LegacyUser

Can anyone advise me how much maintenance payments should be. My husband has been paying maintenance every month but has recently suffered a 120 per week pay cut in his job. We are now struggling to meet mortgage and maint. payments. Is there something we can do about this?

Dublin_Gunner

gerrys77 wrote: »

Can anyone advise me how much maintenance payments should be. My husband has been paying maintenance every month but has recently suffered a 120 per week pay cut in his job. We are now struggling to meet mortgage and maint. payments. Is there something we can do about this?

There is no 'set amount' however the amount paid is based upon a persons means.

No-one here can give you 'advice' as to what should be paid. From my experience, your husband may have to apply to court to have a Variance Order made for the Maintenance, and he will have to fill out a 'affidavit of means'.

The court will then decide; if it cannot be agreed between both parties beforehand, on what the new amount should be.