Anyone built with metal frame?

Do-more

Was talking to a guy down the pub last night, as you do! And he's going to commence a new build with metal frame in two months time, he mentioned a number of manufacturer's but I think he said his supplier will be Kingspan.

Wall construction is rockwool within the frame and HD Polyurethane on the outside, he wasn't sure what the U-value was but it sounds like it will be a warm house, will also have concrete first floor.

Has anyone on here any experiance in building with this type of system? I'd like to be able to give him some feedback and pointers as to what to look out for.

He is particularly keen to cut-out block laying but wants a resonably "solid" outer leaf, any ideas?

Cheers

Do-More
(Doin' feck all at the mo.)

Viking House

Kingspan on the outside won't breathe, a wall should have the least permeable products on the inside and be able to breathe outwards.
Because you have higher pressure inside the house and hot always goes towards cold you can't avoid moist air getting into the wall, you have to design a system that lets the wall breathe outwards.

Do-more

Viking House wrote:

Kingspan on the outside won't breathe, a wall should have the least permeable products on the inside and be able to breathe outwards.
Because you have higher pressure inside the house and hot always goes towards cold you can't avoid moist air getting into the wall, you have to design a system that lets the wall breathe outwards.

OK but wouldn't foil backed plasterboard form a virtually impermeable layer on the inside of the wall, I also seem to recall mention of emulsion paints being impermeable too? As it's metal frame and not timber there is no danger of dry rot. The house will be mechanically ventilated with a HRV system also.

Viking House

I agree with you totally with the metal being a good system for the frames and I agree with the rockwool, I just don't agree with the kingspan on the outside.
The foilback plasterboard leaks at the joints.
You can never stop moist air getting into a wall so you have to design a system that allows the wall to sweat on the outside.
My rule of thumb is put a vapour check on the inside and every next material has to be ten times more breathable than the previous.
There is no danger of dryrot with timberframe anyhow when you get the build up right.

delly

My brothers house is steel framed and has no trouble at all heating it. Don't know wheather this is because of the insulation or heating but it always amazes me that with a size of 4,000 sq ft he can heat it quicker than my regular house, and the heat retention lasts longer as well. From what I remember at the time the description of polyurethane and rockwool is similar to what I can recall him using.

Jambo

Just did a google search and came up with these cork based metal frame builders , there seems to be some infor on the build process and thermal qualities there all be it they seem more for commercial building rathat than the individual .

Edit : sorry just went back to that site and if you check the housing estates tab they have some builds in the cork area

Do-more

Jambo wrote:

Just did a google search and came up with these uk based metal frame builders , there seems to be some infor on the build process and thermal qualities there all be it they seem more for commercial building rathat than the individual .

The Boys in the peoples republic will be delighted that you have moved them to the UK!

Fusion are actually based in Cork, but they do seem to target the UK market. I got a competitive quote of them when I was building 4 years ago. But as they were new to the market then I was a little reluctant to use them.

ircoha

Do-more wrote:

He is particularly keen to cut-out block laying but wants a resonably "solid" outer leaf, any ideas?

Cheers

Do-More
(Doin' feck all at the mo.)

Why?
What else had in in mind?

Do-more

ircoha wrote:

Why?
What else had in in mind?

To cut out blocklayers.

Unfortunately brick is not allowed by the planners otherwise he would have used brick slips.

There is a house close to me that has a stucco finish on aeroboard outer insulation, but it is very "soft" relatively easy to dent, you can push a key into, no problem, for example.

He's looking for a render system that will give a "hard" finish.

sas

Its an aside but how is he planning on funding this build? Spoke to IIB mortgages for example on the build options they allow and the general rule is it must contain brick, block or concrete. Currently it doesn't sound like it does.

Exact same rough guidelines I've found for house insurance too. This one could be a little more worrying.

I'm investigating all the build options myself at the moment but I feel its wise to keep the 2 points I've mentioned in mind.

On the steel frame, you don't happen to know who he's going with? I could only find the Fusion crowd on the web and they don't do one offs if I remember correctly.

Mellor

There are mesh reinforced renders suitable for use over external insulation. Planb Expo is coiming up in the RDS i think, worth doing for a look, these kind of new products are always all over it.

Just a quick question to Viking House, you say that kingspan is non breathable, does this apply to there regular expanded polystyrene or the the newer higher spec phenolic stuff?

rooferPete

Hi,

I think a company called Duggan's Steel were in the metal frame houses a few years ago, they had a semi finished house inside the gate of their yard.

Regarding avoiding the brick layers take great care in the material chosen for the external finish, there are a lot of very sick houses in New Zealand because the developers started using a man made fibre board with a plaster finish on the outside.

Homes were ordered unfit even for renovation in a very short time try this link
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=122&objectid=10115871

It gets scary near the end, the product used would be known to us as a form of fibre cement it was used in 8 x 4 sheets to clad the outside which was fast and obviously saved money on the day.

.

Do-more

Cheers folks - thanks for the feedback.

My advice to him was to stick with the block outer leaf. Based solely on the fact that the house close to me with the rendered polystyrene outer leaf sold earlier this year having been on the market for a long time and made €50K less than similar block houses around it. Despite being a much warmer house, it seems that the general Irish market is not ready to accept anything other than brick just yet...

delly

Talked to my brother and got some spacifics.

The company that made the frame is Duggans Steel which Pete has mentioned under the name of 'Probuild' who were based in Kilkenny at the time. He used Kingspan insulation which was put in the frame itself. For the finish he used handmade clay bricks and he mentioned some crazy figure like 16,000 of them :eek:.

He also said that the margin for error is zero compared to timberframe and is defo a lot more hassle than timberframe.

narommy

Thinking about this myself

Either this method or a structural steel frave with thmber frame infill

In a hurry so

www.stanta.com or .ie
www.greenspan.ie

google weber rend

Do-more

delly wrote:

He also said that the margin for error is zero compared to timberframe and is defo a lot more hassle than timberframe.

Now that you jog my memory, the tolerances that Fusion were talking about for the slab were tiny! Dimensions, squareness and level all had to be near perfect.

delly wrote:

The company that made the frame is Duggans Steel which Pete has mentioned under the name of 'Probuild' who were based in Kilkenny at the time.

Anyone know why Duggans stopped doing the metal frame buildings? I remember that was one of the factors that put me off choosing metal frame at the time.

Viking House

Mellor wrote:

There are mesh reinforced renders suitable for use over external insulation. Planb Expo is coiming up in the RDS i think, worth doing for a look, these kind of new products are always all over it.

Just a quick question to Viking House, you say that kingspan is non breathable, does this apply to there regular expanded polystyrene or the the newer higher spec phenolic stuff?

Put a saucepan of boiling water on the stove and put any of the polyeurethene or polysterene type insulation materials over the saucepan while it is boiling.
You will quickly see that neither of them breathe.

delly

Do-more wrote:

Anyone know why Duggans stopped doing the metal frame buildings? I remember that was one of the factors that put me off choosing metal frame at the time.

Don't know, maybe the industry wasn't ready or that timberframe had to big a slice of the market.

Mellor

Viking House wrote:

Put a saucepan of boiling water on the stove and put any of the polyeurethene or polysterene type insulation materials over the saucepan while it is boiling.
You will quickly see that neither of them breathe.

I know polyeurethene or polystyrene don't breath. I was asking about the stuff kingspan are using now. The range they are pushing is phenolic insulation.
I honestly dont know if its breathable or not. Thought you'd be the best person to ask.

Viking House

Hi Mellor

Thanks for the info on the Phenolic insulation from Kingspan. I was not
It seems to be made from plastics and is waterproof so I'd be very suprised if it was breathable. Have you seen it? Is it very light?

Mellor

I held a 300mm square sample, but can't comment on the weight as it sample I held came with came with plasterboard attached. Its quite a different testure to regular stuf. You could leave finger marks in it.
I just wondered because the details I seen with it included a breatable sarking felt.