Such and such is a crap car....

TheSecondComing

I was reading threads here for most of the day and a thought occured to me.

What basis do people have for saying certain cars are crap?
I read in a number of threads people saying such and such a car was crap but I didn't see any thing other that generic reasons for it. It struck me as opinions people had formed without having experiance with the product?

So I was wondering if honestly people slated cars on hersay rather than actual experiance? For example people are always saying mercs are great. And they were. But now in Germany taxi drivers go with Audis due to CAN tech issues with Mercs. Yet no one really feels prompted bar having a bad experiance, to slate Mercs.

Then you get some one like Kia getting slated for it's products but I have not yet seen any one say "I owned a Kia and" etc. You just see Kia are crap. Thats just an example by the way.

So I was wondering if people do go on heresay? If you're mate told you such and such were crap would you continue the hersay or do you know it to be true?

I can honestly say that Fiats are cheap assed sh1t that look really goooood. I have for example seen the latest warranty list while in a garge. 6 foot long beside the service managers desk

So is it based on fact or just hersay?

Fey!

For me, mainly experience. Some cars to me are crap because I can't drive them (tall, awkward, heavy, big-footed), others I've driven and disliked intensely, somw have given me or a friend a royal PITA! Then some are from discussion with friends in the motor trade.

crosstownk

I go from experience - I've a fleet in excess of 1,000 cars on the road and I usually give my opinion from a reliabilty perspective. I've driven most makes and models of cars and may give my opinion based on what I though of the car to drive, but reliability is the main factor for me.

And remember, opinions are like ar$eholes - everybody has one. If you don't like someones opinion then chances are they don't like yours - so live with it!

Wishbone Ash

TheSecondComing wrote:

Yet no one really feels prompted bar having a bad experiance, to slate Mercs

I have regularly read negative posts here regarding Mercs especially those made from the late 1990s on.

The SecondComing wrote:

You just see Kia are crap. Thats just an example by the way.

Most Sportage owners seem happy enough.

theSecondcoming wrote:

I can honestly say that Fiats are cheap assed sh1t that look really goooood. I have for example seen the latest warranty list while in a garge. 6 foot long

I would also take into account what my friends and work colleagues say. I work with a lot of different people and regularly hear opinions on their cars. There are also many occasions where staff need to get time off work to deal with breakdowns/car problems that they are having. It doesn't matter how long a warrantly list is - you will soon get píssed off bring the car back to a dealer week after week. Based on this knowledge and my own experience, I would never buy/recommend a Fiat Punto, Alfa 156, Renault Laguna, Toyota Yaris or any Volvo.

(I wouldn't buy a Yaris or Punto anyway as they are too small but you know what I mean)

eljono

I mostly make my assumptions from experience. I was a salesman with a main dealer up to a couple of years ago so I drove most production cars on Irish roads and I also got to see what the main troublemakers were. Even apart from that, I've been into cars all my life and converse with people who know their stuff. Some of my friends are in the trade so we discuss various makes and models regularly. However, there are certain cars that I dislike for various reasons even when I know that they are a good car. I won't slate them blindly but I would let my opinion be known. For example, I don't like Hyundai Accents but I know them to be a reliable car and good value for money. While I wouldn't recommend it to someone who enjoys driving I would recommend it to someone looking for a practical means of transport. When someone asks me for advice on a car, I try to be objective and see what they want from it. A good car to one person might be a wrong choice for someone else.
Wishbone, I'm interested to know why you rate the Yaris and Volvos so lowly. Personally I think the Yaris is a great car for it's market and I like most Volvos. You say you base your assumptions on other people's experiences. How many bad experiences of a certain model/make does it take for you to decide that a car is bad? One thing I learnt from working in the trade is that no car or manufacturer is bulletproof. Every model breaks down at some time or has defects. The thing is finding out which are the most occurent and repetitive.

junkyard

I make my comments from experience, I've been dealing and working on cars for nearly thirty years and have a recovery service for about fifteen years as well as supplying fleet cars for about eight years, so I've seen most of the cases I've talked about first hand. I have to say the brand loyalty on boards.ie amazes me more and more each day, some people can see no wrong in some makes even when the evidence is there in front of their noses for all to see. I suppose this is why some cars command better prices, if their supporters keep praising them the next generation of punters will keep buying them.:)

Kashkai

I've had 13 cars now from most of the major mass market manufacturers and I'd have to say that the worst two were a Toyota Corrolla and a Fiat Bravo.

The corrolla had lousy handling, poor brakes and parts were expensive. The Bravo had just won European Car of the Year when I bought it brand new. However, after six months and 12 return trips to the dealer to fix electrics, rattles and seatbelt anchorages, I got rid of it.

The best cars I've owned were Renaults, I'm now on my fourth. My first one was a ten year old Renault 5 that I had for 2 years and never let me down. I had a Megane bought new in 1996 and sold last year with 140,000 on the clock and never a minutes trouble with it either.

I had a Kia Sportage for a year and it was a great car apart from being very thirsty on petrol. I got rid of it to buy a Renault Grand Scenic for the wife and kids, very roomy and packed with all the goodies you'd need for a babymobile.

RobAMerc

I base mine on enjoyment of ownership.

I have also found after nearly 20 cars - research through motoring mags rarely does me any wrong, and mostly they agree on whats good and whats not.

digweed

i also base mine on experience. i've driven quite a few cars. i loved the first car i had, a mirage and the 2 bmws i had and also the 2 mondeos. i had a civic and absolutely 'hated' it. i've driven a few other cars at work and i hated the avensis diesel and the current vectra '05 model (no road holding and very jittery, we have a '02 1.4 seat which i much prefer over the vectra any day).

D.

Fey!

digweed wrote:

i had a civic and absolutely 'hated' it.
D.

You hated your saloon, but didn't you like the coupe?:D

chrislad

Honestly, since I'm only on my first car (a 1995 Nissan Sunny), it's based totally on what other people say. I was told to stay away from FIATs and Opels, as well as Micras. So I did. Plus the fact that the Nissan was only 800euro with 120k on the clock and was serviced every 5000 miles.

colm_mcm

I'd usually go on cars I've sold, and the warranty issues and general feedback,

Sonnenblumen

TheSecondComing wrote:

I was reading threads here for most of the day and a thought occured to me.

What basis do people have for saying certain cars are crap?
I read in a number of threads people saying such and such a car was crap but I didn't see any thing other that generic reasons for it. It struck me as opinions people had formed without having experiance with the product?

So I was wondering if honestly people slated cars on hersay rather than actual experiance? For example people are always saying mercs are great. And they were. But now in Germany taxi drivers go with Audis due to CAN tech issues with Mercs. Yet no one really feels prompted bar having a bad experiance, to slate Mercs.

Then you get some one like Kia getting slated for it's products but I have not yet seen any one say "I owned a Kia and" etc. You just see Kia are crap. Thats just an example by the way.

So I was wondering if people do go on heresay? If you're mate told you such and such were crap would you continue the hersay or do you know it to be true?

I can honestly say that Fiats are cheap assed sh1t that look really goooood. I have for example seen the latest warranty list while in a garge. 6 foot long beside the service managers desk

So is it based on fact or just hersay?

IMO the smaller the budget, the older the car, the bigger the mouth. If you don't believe take a trawl through the Motor Forum!! Old Bangers v Green Prejudice.

There are exceptions of course, but see for yourself.

TempestSabre

chrislad wrote:

Honestly, since I'm only on my first car (a 1995 Nissan Sunny), it's based totally on what other people say. I was told to stay away from FIATs and Opels, as well as Micras. So I did. Plus the fact that the Nissan was only 800euro with 120k on the clock and was serviced every 5000 miles.

Thats a classic case. Nothing wrong with a Micra.

maidhc

Sonnenblumen wrote:

IMO the smaller the budget, the older the car, the bigger the mouth. If you don't believe take a trawl through the Motor Forum!! Old Bangers v Green Prejudice.

I'd have more respect for the opinion of a person who drives a clapped out starlet, but is able to strip it down to its component parts and rebuild it before lunch than someone who trades in their Merc every 2 years and pays €80 an hour for "experts" to service their car.

As for me deciding whether a car is crap? Some from experience, some from talking to people, more from observing things with mine own eyes, some things from books... how else could a person in their 20s learn about the delectable delights of an Austin Allegro? My sole criteria for a car being crap is its lack of reliability.

DublinWriter

TheSecondComing wrote:

What basis do people have for saying certain cars are crap?

Because they used to own them.

Take me for example, I have a vendetta against VW Golfs of all marks and will constantly moan about how stupid people are that Golfs always have such a high resale value.

I used used to own a Mark II and everything fell out of it except the engine, which ended up needing new gaskets anyway. Gearbox, CV boot, steering rack, sunroof mechanism. I could have reassembled the original Golf I bought out of the bits I got replaced.

And as for Golf GTI's? Don't get me started.

TempestSabre

What were you doing to it? My own Golf GTI Mrk 2 did 130k with out needing anything other than regular servicing. I only got rid of it because it was heavy on juice. My mechanic bought it off me!

DublinWriter

TempestSabre wrote:

Thats a classic case. Nothing wrong with a Micra.

Nothing wrong with a Nissan, full-stop. I had a Primera for 10 years, always had it serviced regularly and the worst thing that happened was the electric ariel got stuck.

Anything Italian or French has always had a bad name, but I've seen the reliability of such cars come along in leaps and bounds in the last couple of years. I still wouldn't buy one though!

Funnily enough, a (very) rich friend of mine bought a new Aston Martin DB9 over in London about 8 years ago. After a month the windscreen wipers and driver's side mirror fell off, so money doesn't always mean reliability.

colm_mcm

Newer Nissan (Renault) cars aren't nearly as reliable as the older ones.

DublinWriter

TempestSabre wrote:

What were you doing to it? My own Golf GTI Mrk 2 did 130k with out needing anything other than regular servicing. I only got rid of it because it was heavy on juice. My mechanic bought it off me!

I guess mine was a 'Friday Afternoon' built car.

chrislad

TempestSabre wrote:

Thats a classic case. Nothing wrong with a Micra.

This one was a 1996 one without power steering so that may have been the reason. As I said, I have a 1995 Nissan Sunny now, and while I only have experience driving 2 cars, and only over the last 3 weeks, bar a sticky gearbox when going to third, I've no problems.

DublinWriter

colm_mcm wrote:

Newer Nissan (Renault) cars aren't nearly as reliable as the older ones.

I know, that's the reason I drive a BWM now, that and the horrible styling of the later Primeras/Maximas.

colm_mcm

The main selling point Nissan had (round here anyway) was the reliability, with more French bits being introduced more problems are arising. Granted, cars are all getting more complicated and will have more scope for trouble.

ds20prefecture

Sonnenblumen wrote:

IMO the smaller the budget, the older the car, the bigger the mouth. If you don't believe take a trawl through the Motor Forum!! Old Bangers v Green Prejudice.

What exactly is Green Prejudice? Is it a prejudice against environmentally kind cars?

I just bought a car for €750. It has 20,000 miles from new, handles well, rides better than most and really appeals to me looks-wise. It is 27 years old. So, tiny budget, ancient car. How does this relate to the size of my mouth?

No doubt most of our resident motor trade experts would cluck and say that my Citroen GS was "a crap car" because they were prone to rust (like most cars of the time) and were much more complex than, say, a Mk II escort. In response I would say that they were a fast, frugal, spacious and safe family car that represented the pinnacle of automotive engineering and ingenuity at the time. From what i've read, most of the motoring press would agree.

Mostly though, I just don't bother much with this forum anymore. Irish people, by and large, do not actually like cars. They just want an appliance to move them from A to B that the neighbours will approve of. Because the appliance is so expensive, the decision is a nerve wracking one. So when our experts from the motor trade suck their teeth and say "oooh, Alfa - they're well dodgy" the poor sap turns away from a minty 4 year old 156 for 4 grand and instead find themselves in something relentlessly beige that is so common as to seem like wallpaper.

Most posts I have read here are about reliability, or the reputation of reliability. It seems to have 75% of the weighting in most people's decision on which car to buy. I find this bizarre as even the cars with the worst reliability reputation are not at all unreliable compared with, say, 15 years ago. So 75% of your attention is focussed on the 1% probability that the car will let you down. The remaining 25% is focussed on not appearing like a mug in 5 years when you go to sell it, and not having your neighbours/friends/fellow boards users laugh at your decision.

The actual car itself is irrelevant to the decision, and to most of the posts in this forum.

Sonnenblumen

ds20prefecture wrote:

What exactly is Green Prejudice? Is it a prejudice against environmentally kind cars?

I just bought a car for €750. It has 20,000 miles from new, handles well, rides better than most and really appeals to me looks-wise. It is 27 years old. So, tiny budget, ancient car. How does this relate to the size of my mouth?

No doubt most of our resident motor trade experts would cluck and say that my Citroen GS was "a crap car" because they were prone to rust (like most cars of the time) and were much more complex than, say, a Mk II escort. In response I would say that they were a fast, frugal, spacious and safe family car that represented the pinnacle of automotive engineering and ingenuity at the time. From what i've read, most of the motoring press would agree.

Mostly though, I just don't bother much with this forum anymore. Irish people, by and large, do not actually like cars. They just want an appliance to move them from A to B that the neighbours will approve of. Because the appliance is so expensive, the decision is a nerve wracking one. So when our experts from the motor trade suck their teeth and say "oooh, Alfa - they're well dodgy" the poor sap turns away from a minty 4 year old 156 for 4 grand and instead find themselves in something relentlessly beige that is so common as to seem like wallpaper.

Most posts I have read here are about reliability, or the reputation of reliability. It seems to have 75% of the weighting in most people's decision on which car to buy. I find this bizarre as even the cars with the worst reliability reputation are not at all unreliable compared with, say, 15 years ago. So 75% of your attention is focussed on the 1% probability that the car will let you down. The remaining 25% is focussed on not appearing like a mug in 5 years when you go to sell it, and not having your neighbours/friends/fellow boards users laugh at your decision.

The actual car itself is irrelevant to the decision, and to most of the posts in this forum.

Agree with your general sentiments yes marketing hype can have a big influence on buying decisions/options, but there are also many which cannot read/listen to proven facts. Anyway the world ain't perfect and not everyone wants to be a grease monkey and be topping/checking oil weekly. Car sentimentality does nothing for me either, mode of transport essential, bigger better faster well perhaps.

The problem with this forum is that it's full with small minded low budget banger drivers and a few traders claiming the high ground of expertise. Few can contribute/argue without insult and thats about how low the general intelligence is or how good the car forum gets.

IMO a 27 year old car belongs in a garage/museum and certainly should be on restricted mileage no matter what the price. Enjoy it.

TempestSabre

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Agree with your general sentiments yes marketing hype can have a big influence on buying decisions/options, but there are also many which cannot read/listen to proven facts. Anyway the world ain't perfect and not everyone wants to be a grease monkey and be topping/checking oil weekly. Car sentimentality does nothing for me either, mode of transport essential, bigger better faster well perhaps.

The problem with this forum is that it's full with small minded low budget banger drivers and a few traders claiming the high ground of expertise. Few can contribute/argue without insult and thats about how low the general intelligence is or how good the car forum gets.

IMO a 27 year old car belongs in a garage/museum and certainly should be on restricted mileage no matter what the price. Enjoy it.

Nothing wrong with driving an old car, classic or not.

Sonnenblumen

maidhc wrote:

I'd have more respect for the opinion of a person who drives a clapped out starlet, but is able to strip it down to its component parts and rebuild it before lunch than someone who trades in their Merc every 2 years and pays €80 an hour for "experts" to service their car.

As for me deciding whether a car is crap? Some from experience, some from talking to people, more from observing things with mine own eyes, some things from books... how else could a person in their 20s learn about the delectable delights of an Austin Allegro? My sole criteria for a car being crap is its lack of reliability.

Never be shy about learning, but not sure where you get your respect values from. The person paying the experts may be busy saving people whereas your star is busy trying to save a banger. In light of your respect appraisal, you might want to review your learning methods.

The simple facts are, there are more craps cars around and consequently more crap experts, and like I said previously this forum is full of them.

TempestSabre

Sonnenblumen wrote:

... Car sentimentality does nothing for me either, mode of transport essential, bigger better faster well perhaps. ...

Thats too clinical a view IMO. No bedside manner there.

ds20prefecture

Sonnenblumen wrote:

IMO a 27 year old car belongs in a garage/museum and certainly should be on restricted mileage no matter what the price. Enjoy it.

No car belongs in a garage/museum. Cars are made to be used, not stored, or displayed.

Why should they be on restricted mileage?

I do enjoy it. Every other day, when I'm not driving my other (34 year old) car.

I disagree about the forum being filled with "small minded low budget banger drivers". There's people here with Porsches, Lotuses (Lotii?), even a ferrari or two. There's also wall-to-wall BMW owners which, while they may be bangers, are far from low budget.

Your horse seems very high.

311

everyone must know the vintage mustang from around the 60's ,I think it was the car that was in Bullit .
If a car like that was outside my place now the only reason I'd be here on the keyboard is because there was 10FT of snow sitting around it.:D

VeVeX

DublinWriter wrote:

Funnily enough, a (very) rich friend of mine bought a new Aston Martin DB9 over in London about 8 years ago. After a month the windscreen wipers and driver's side mirror fell off, so money doesn't always mean reliability.

He must have bought a DeLorean before the DB9 :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_DB9

ninty9er

I'm on my first car but drove a few in the process of deciding so thats part of how I go on.

My dad's had a few pre 80s Fiats, and while rustbuckets were OK, even had one up to 1990.

I worked in a FIAT/ALFA dealer for a few months and the amount of trouble the punto gave on niggly tings was unbelievable, Mainly wiper motors or immobiliser trouble. Alfa's.... wouldn't buy a s/h one because you cant' tell what kind of life it'll have had and they need to be babied. Wouldn't buy a new one because I'd end up spending months trying to sell it like my dad is currenlt doing with the Citroen. He has it on for 8k when the average carzone price is in excess of 9 with quite a few private included. FS for 6 months now.

He sold an 11 year old Carina in 3 days and a 10 year old vectra in 7 weeks.

Toyotas sell second hand and the only major issue I've heard of is the gearbox falling out of a brand new Yaris my uncle sold a few years back. He duly replaced the car...Toyota service!!! Generally why people buy them. It's 99.9% unlikely it'll go wrong, and if it's a Toyota fault its 99.9% they'll take care of it.

---

Basically I gather my opinions from others my family and myself, with myself becoming a bigger part now that I can drive

311

toyota wanted to sue my ma , after the back wheel broke off her 5 year old avensis.

Luckily she was only doing 25mph around a country corner and ended up with the car at a 45 degree angle.
The cast iron broke off from the axle ,toyota tested the metal and then had the cheek to start saying it might need the money for the tests it done on the metal and basically told her to get lost.
This had been the fourth consecutive toyota purchase ,needless to say the local dealer didn't want to know either.
This is all true ,not a word of a lie ,a lot of people will disbelieve but the car is actually back on the road ,someone in the family rebuilt the axle and fixed it up.
Needless to say my ma went with honda after ,with my encouragement. Loyalty means nothing.
Toyota = Auto toy.

junkyard

I had a Corolla estate I bought nearly new in 1996 and soon after buying it it started burning oil, I took it back to the main dealer and they tried to worm their way out of warranty and eventually I got so sick of it I traded it in for a BMW 530d and in fairness to BMW I haven't had a days trouble since. Needless to say I wouldn't recommend Toyotas in a big way even though they're not all bad I think its more the dealers fault than the cars tbh.

TempestSabre

Had a bad experience with that toyota dealer over in walkinstown. But then I have a low opinion of all main dealers. Yet to have a good experience with one.

311

theres a toyota dealer at the end of the dublin to carlow road ,just as you come into carlow town.
I know people who have travelled far and wide to deal with the guy as he does great deals ,both on secondhand and new.
I think a lot of people from dublin ,go outside dublin for good deals.

overdriver

A neighbour of mine who was a Hackney driver bought a 98 Avensis new. It broke his heart. Tracking problems associated withe the steering rack ate new tyres in TWO days, the electric windows scored the glass constantly, the drivers seat collapsed twice in 75K.
He tried to sue Toyota, and they sued him. He moved before I could find out the outcome.
Another neighbour had a brand new Fiesta which cut out constantly, nearly killing him and his family on the M50. It turned out to be a pinched fuel pipe, which they'd run under the driver's seat!!!
He sued Ford, lost, and now is not allowed to buy a new Ford, or he'll have no warranty.

After all this, I still swear by Toyotas. I've put 175k on a Carina E, about 50k on a carina II, and the ex' 1990 Carina II is still going like a train. That's my personal experience, and until something else changes my mind, that's the way I'll stay - a Toyota man.

My trip into the world of classic motoring has taught me how far we have come. My Herald needs constant tinkering, or adjustment to the way i drive to keep it going. But that was par for the course then.

311

Someone in the family told us to get copper grease put somewhere in the steering when the avensis was getting serviced ,it was a problem avensis's had back in around 97-99.
This is something that was done at no charge ,so obviously the toyota dealer knew about it but never sent a letter to us telling us about it.

I respect the toyota idea ,mass produce quality ,but I think when you bang out at a high rate there is bound to be lots of problems before a machine is rectified, i.e. I had a hi-ace a few years back ,from day one the thing would intermittenly sway to the right. Went to the dealer ,he said come back after 500 miles and see how you get on .Came back and he said not under warranty sorry.
Someone told me this problem would have been caused by the geometry of the vehicle and it was a manufacturing fault.

Bought a secondhand toyota corrolla off another dealer a few years later ,after about three weeks I decided to wax it . Noticed the line of the boot did not match the rear of the car ,at closer inspection a serious lacker job was done on the boot. The back of the car had been completely wrote off.
Got a full refund back off them ,couldn't believe they thought I wouldn't see it.

Wishbone Ash

ds20prefecture wrote:

There's also wall-to-wall BMW owners which, while they may be bangers, are far from low budget.

LOL