Britain likely to restrict Romanian/Bulgarian EU immigration

New_Departure06

Considering Britain is likely to impose restrictions on migration from Romania and Bulgaria (combined population 30 million) when they join the EU (likely to be in January 2007), should Ireland in that context do likewise? I believe we should because:

A: Public-opinion has been ignored on this kind of issue for too long.
B: People need time to get used to the immigration we have already had from the 10 new EU states.
C:Immigrants who wanted to go to Britain but can't will come here instead because we share a language with the UK. 600,000 are reported to have gone to Britain in the past 2 years from the 10 new EU states. Romania and Bulgaria are much poorer than the 10 new EU states so proportionately we could expect a similar influx into Ireland. 600,000 in 2 years might be sustainable in an economy of 60 million like Britain, but certainly not in Ireland with only 4.2 million (of which 10% are non-national anyway).
The threat of new Irish-Ferries scenarios, with an endless supply of cheap-labour.
E: Continuing problems with gangsterism in the 2 countries - especially Bulgaria. Western law-enforcement officials have complained about non-cooperation from Bulgaria especially. We could be letting in the Bulgarian mafia.
F: Romania is a notorious source of people-trafficking and has not taken adequate measures to prevent this being exploited in a free-movement EU.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1221313.ece

Ministers are expected to impose curbs on workers from Romania and Bulgaria coming to Britain after evidence that the UK could be more attractive to them than for people in other former Soviet bloc countries.

Initial studies by Whitehall officials suggest the UK could become a magnet for people in the two nations due to join the European Union in January because unemployment is higher and the standard of living lower than in former Communist countries which entered the EU two years ago.

Although the Cabinet will not discuss the issue until next month, opinion is moving against extending the so-called "open door" policy. One government source said yesterday: "We are still looking at all the figures but we have got to bear in mind that the economies of Romania and Bulgaria are different to those of the [other] eight countries."

Ministers are wary of giving the green light to workers unless the other EU members do so. Only two other countries, Ireland and Sweden, adopted an "open door" policy when the eight joined, and France and Germany imposed a much stricter system of permits.

Officials are studying how many of the estimated 600,000 workers who have come to the UK from the eight in the past two years are likely to settle permanently. Many have already returned home and the Government's labour force survey suggests the number at work in Britain is around 300,000.
No decisions have been taken on what restrictions would be imposed on new workers. The options include a quota system, phasing in the right to work in the UK or delaying it for several years. Ministers in favour of some curbs include John Reid, the Home Secretary, and John Hutton, the Work and Pensions Secretary.

Mr Hutton is anxious to ensure any restrictions are not seen as a change of policy towards the "Little Englander" approach Labour claims the Tories favour. He wants to continue to extol the positive benefits of immigration.

The Tories urged the Government to make its intentions clear after the Home Office announced on Tuesday that 427,000 migrants from the eight eastern European countries had registered to work in Britain since 2004, more than 60 per cent of whom came from Poland. When the self-employed are included the figure rises to about 600,000.

Ministers are wary of being portrayed as "soft" on immigration by the Tories. Although the Tories have softened the line they adopted at last year's general election, they have demanded a clampdown.

darkman2

The problem I have with Romania and Bulgaria is that criminality is rife there (it literally is from petty crime to organised crime). TBH I think we should restrict too.

LostinBlanch

The only action governments can take is to introduce a work permit system. From next year when they become full members of the EU their citizens will be able to travel freely to any EU state and stay there for up to three months legally.

So they can theoretically go anywhere and work illegally for Irish Ferries type wages. Neither the locals or immigrants who are working legally will be happy with it.

I don't remember voting for Romania and Bulgaria to get full membership, though I did vote for the 10 EU accession states to join.

Moriarty

LostinBlanch wrote:

I don't remember voting for Romania and Bulgaria to get full membership, though I did vote for the 10 EU accession states to join.

When did you vote for that then?

delop

darkman2 wrote:

The problem I have with Romania and Bulgaria is that criminality is rife there (it literally is from petty crime to organised crime). TBH I think we should restrict too.

Like how for generations we were restricted from working in foreign countries? Hump!

Those guys are hard workers, and diserve oppertunities of being an EU member, Surely they will have to abide by our laws like everyone else if they live/work here

Here is a story for you, Britian and France insisted that Bulgaria close down its nuclear power plant if they were to join even though it was up to code, Who whant to sell their power eh?
And Britian and Germany are trying to push Bulgaria out of the arms market too....

It cuts both ways thi scorruption thing

New_Departure06

LostinBlanch wrote:

The only action governments can take is to introduce a work permit system. From next year when they become full members of the EU their citizens will be able to travel freely to any EU state and stay there for up to three months legally.

So they can theoretically go anywhere and work illegally for Irish Ferries type wages. Neither the locals or immigrants who are working legally will be happy with it.

I don't remember voting for Romania and Bulgaria to get full membership, though I did vote for the 10 EU accession states to join.

Actually some member states have brought in further restrictions, including on residence, including I believe Germany and Austria. We can do more.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

Actually some member states have brought in further restrictions, including on residence, including I believe Germany and Austria. We can do more.

We cannot restrict movement and that's the important thing; banning them from work permits or anything else will just increase the black market in the country.

There was a great discussion on this yesterday on the Right Hook where it was pointed out that there are thousands of Polish people living in Brussels, for example, but they're all illegal and cheap labour... the reality is that Ireland the UK and Sweden all got the educated Polish workers looking for relatively good jobs while the ones that imposed work restrictions got the cheap labour, poorly educated and probably more troublesome people.

Some people would have you believe that an influx of migrants is going to bring criminals to our fair island, I think we Irish are doing a good enough job of that as it is and don't need encouragment; assuming that Romanians are all criminals is as good as assuming all Limerick residents are gangsters IMO.

mike65

Ireland has actually got this right (though not by design, once UK said yes we had no choice due to common travel area). As pointed out above work restrictions are a non-runner as people will simply work in the black economy after arriving as "tourists".

The only (!) thing that need doing here is boosting the infrastructure and social services to cope with a rapidly growing population. But that should be done anyway.

Mike.

New_Departure06

flogen wrote:

We cannot restrict movement and that's the important thing; banning them from work permits or anything else will just increase the black market in the country.

There was a great discussion on this yesterday on the Right Hook where it was pointed out that there are thousands of Polish people living in Brussels, for example, but they're all illegal and cheap labour... the reality is that Ireland the UK and Sweden all got the educated Polish workers looking for relatively good jobs while the ones that imposed work restrictions got the cheap labour, poorly educated and probably more troublesome people.

Some people would have you believe that an influx of migrants is going to bring criminals to our fair island, I think we Irish are doing a good enough job of that as it is and don't need encouragment; assuming that Romanians are all criminals is as good as assuming all Limerick residents are gangsters IMO.

A work-permit system would ensure we could pick the more talented ones if we needed them, while keeping out the low-skilled ones that we don't need. Importing people with skills we don't need will only drive down wages in the relevant sectors. Also I reject your claim that we cannot restrict freedom of movement. The Accession Treaty is vague on the question of what restrictions can be introduced, and as such we have plenty of wriggle room. A new 7 year transition period starts when these countries join the EU.

Notwithstanding that the health-service problems began before mass-migration, it is hardly in a position to cope with another mass-influx which could double the current one from the 10 new EU states, considering the comparatively extreme poverty of Romania and Bulgaria. And with the news in recent days of the proportion of demand in the housing market being non-national, I think we have a right to ask is it appropriate, when our own are finding it hard enough to afford a house, to fuel this demand further.

mike65

A couple of threads from back in the day

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=253540&referrerid=59211&highlight=EU+10%22

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=256513&highlight=nice+referendum%22

Same old arguments really.

Mike.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

A work-permit system would ensure we could pick the more talented ones if we needed them, while keeping out the low-skilled ones that we don't need.

Maybe I should say it again; Under EU law we cannot keep any citizens of an EU member state out.

Importing people with skills we don't need will only drive down wages in the relevant sectors. Also I reject your claim that we cannot restrict freedom of movement. The Accession Treaty is vague on the question of what restrictions can be introduced, and as such we have plenty of wriggle room. A new 7 year transition period starts when these countries join the EU.

The EU has been pushing more and more for an intergrated EU, I find it hard to believe that it would ratify a treaty that allowed active discrimination based on country of origin.
I'm willing to be corrected on that, but from what I understand every citizen of every EU state has the ability to travel freely across the 25/27 countries.

Notwithstanding that the health-service problems began before mass-migration, it is hardly in a position to cope with another mass-influx which could double the current one from the 10 new EU states, considering the comparatively extreme poverty of Romania and Bulgaria.

That's a moot point, frankly. It all goes back to the fact that stopping people from legally working in Ireland won't stop them coming over; if anything the freedom for eastern Europeans to work in Ireland is helping the health-service; after all, they're paying 100% more in tax than black-market workers are

And with the news in recent days of the proportion of demand in the housing market being non-national, I think we have a right to ask is it appropriate, when our own are finding it hard enough to afford a house, to fuel this demand further.

From what I'm seeing non-nationals are renting over buying; I could also make the point that without the Polish construction workers we may not have seen the 23% increase in housing output for the first 7 months of this year...

New_Departure06

Maybe I should say it again; Under EU law we cannot keep any citizens of an EU member state out.

I am sorry but that is not true. The Accession Treaty allows for a transition period of up to 7 years during which those rights can be restricted.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/free-movement-labour-eu-25/article-129648

The Accession Treaty allows for the introduction of ‘transitional measures.’ Commonly referred to in EU circles as the ‘2+3+2-year arrangement’, this scheme obliges the member states to declare themselves in May 2006, and again in May 2009 and May 2011, on whether they will open up their labour markets or keep restrictions in place.

InFront

I could be wrong here, but it seems his point is that you can't stop them entering the country - only their emplyment opportunities. And what makes you think they wont work here illegaly, many of them already do.

It's a fair point.

New_Departure06

InFront wrote:

I could be wrong here, but it seems his point is that you can't stop them entering the country - only their emplyment opportunities. And what makes you think they wont work here illegaly, many of them already do.

It's a fair point.

I disagree with his interpretation.

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

I disagree with his interpretation.

From your own quote:

The Accession Treaty allows for the introduction of ‘transitional measures.’ Commonly referred to in EU circles as the ‘2+3+2-year arrangement’, this scheme obliges the member states to declare themselves in May 2006, and again in May 2009 and May 2011, on whether they will open up their labour markets or keep restrictions in place.

New_Departure06

oscarBravo wrote:

From your own quote:

Yes but the ECJ has already held (in a case involving the British govt) that someone doesn't actually have to have a job to constitute "labour". They can be unemployed for 6 months and still constitute labour. And if we can't limit actual movement of persons from the new EU states, then why does The Scotsman newspaper say:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1237692006

MINISTERS yesterday signalled they are preparing to limit the next wave of immigration from eastern Europe, after admitting that more than 600,000 people from new EU member states have come to Britain in the past two years - 23 times more than initial government estimates.

The official estimate - which dwarfs the Home Office's original suggestion of 13,000 eastern European migrants each year - intensified calls for curbs on the number of Romanians and Bulgarians who are permitted to enter the UK when their countries join the EU next year.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

Yes but the ECJ has already held (in a case involving the British govt) that someone doesn't actually have to have a job to constitute "labour". They can be unemployed for 6 months and still constitute labour. And if we can't limit actual movement of persons from the new EU states, then why does The Scotsman newspaper say:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1237692006

Maybe it's because the Scotsman is reporting on what the politicians are saying, which may be worded to appease their voters above all else.

The fact is they have the right to travel, nothing you have shown changes that fact; you can restrict labour but you can't stop them coming over for other supposed reasons such as travel, tourism etc. etc.

New_Departure06

flogen wrote:

Maybe it's because the Scotsman is reporting on what the politicians are saying, which may be worded to appease their voters above all else.

The fact is they have the right to travel, nothing you have shown changes that fact; you can restrict labour but you can't stop them coming over for other supposed reasons such as travel, tourism etc. etc.

For the purpose of the single-market, "labour" means "people". Remember the ECJ has established that you can be in a country for 6 months at least without a job and still constitute "labour". So it does amount to allowing restrictions. It is self-evident that when you legalise labour in a country from another state that the numbers will increase considerably (of immigrants from the relevant source-country). We should protect Irish jobs from more Irish Ferries by avoiding the importation of labour from countries which make Poland look rich.

gilroyb

New_Departure06 wrote:

For the purpose of the single-market, "labour" means "people".

Actually, for the purpose of the single-market, "labour" means "labour". There is another word they use when they want to talk about "people" as a societal group, that word is "people".

If you only allow EU citizens to enter by using their right to go to any part of the EU, rather than a right to work, you stop the best and the brightest coming here. They will go where they can set their life up on the best footing. We will still get immigrants coming here to work hard, but they will be unregulated, undocumented, and untaxed. The people willing to do this are more likely to be non-English speaking and less educated, meaning they will give less to Irish society.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

For the purpose of the single-market, "labour" means "people". Remember the ECJ has established that you can be in a country for 6 months at least without a job and still constitute "labour". So it does amount to allowing restrictions. It is self-evident that when you legalise labour in a country from another state that the numbers will increase considerably (of immigrants from the relevant source-country). We should protect Irish jobs from more Irish Ferries by avoiding the importation of labour from countries which make Poland look rich.

As Gilroy has pointed out, and has been repeated endlessly through this thread, you cannot stop people from coming here, be they calling themselves tourists or something similar. People are not Labour and vice versa.

As an aside, reminding us of the Irish Ferries incident doesn't really do much; Irish Ferries used a loophole that allowed their ships to be flagged in another country, it's not a choice that companies on the Island or Ireland have; for example Irish Ferries staff working in Irish Ferries offices in Dublin had to get at least the Irish minimum wage.
I've yet to see any negative effect from the influx of Polish people to Ireland.

Frankly I don't think there's a debate here, if there ever was one it's over now; anything the politicians tell us about needing to close our borders will be ineffectual scare mongering for populist votes.

New_Departure06

flogen wrote:

As Gilroy has pointed out, and has been repeated endlessly through this thread, you cannot stop people from coming here, be they calling themselves tourists or something similar. People are not Labour and vice versa.

As an aside, reminding us of the Irish Ferries incident doesn't really do much; Irish Ferries used a loophole that allowed their ships to be flagged in another country, it's not a choice that companies on the Island or Ireland have; for example Irish Ferries staff working in Irish Ferries offices in Dublin had to get at least the Irish minimum wage.
I've yet to see any negative effect from the influx of Polish people to Ireland.

Frankly I don't think there's a debate here, if there ever was one it's over now; anything the politicians tell us about needing to close our borders will be ineffectual scare mongering for populist votes.

I disagree. The govt parties have strongly hinted at controls on Romania and Bulgaria. Meanwhile Enda Kenny told Ursulla Halligan on "The Political Party" program that he would open our labour-markets to these 2 countries. What is all the more alarming is that this comes at a time when only Finland has agreed to unrestricted access to Romania and Bulgaria when they join the EU. I think there is very much a political debate on this issue, but that it is very low-key, as you would expect from the liberal-elites in the body-politic in this country. Pat Rabbitte fired a salvo in the debate on EU migration in the not too distant past when questioning freedom of movement from the 10 new EU states already in the club. So I very much believe that the political debate on this is far from over - indeed with a decision on the 2 new EU states pending I would argue it is only just beginning. Especially as the Irish Independent is reporting today that the govt has decided to control migration from them:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1677439&issue_id=14568
Door shuts for migrants
Work permit plan to restrict Bulgarian and Romanian workers



THE Government is planning to close the door to thousands of foreign workers looking to move here next year.

The Irish Independent has learned the State wants to end its open-door policy for migrant workers from Bulgaria and Romania.

Thousands of workers from the two EU accession states had been expected to move here once they became full members of the EU in January 2007.

Now, however, government sources have revealed Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Justice Minister Michael McDowell plan to introduce specific work-permits for nationals from the two new EU member states.

"The standard of living in Bulgaria and Romania is so far below the other access countries we would be swamped by workers seeking jobs here," a source said.

The Fianna Fail/PD coalition is wary of a voter backlash which they fear would be sparked by a fresh influx of foreign workers.

The ban on Romanians and Bulgarians working here would not affect the position of migrant workers from Poland and the Baltic States.

Almost 100,000 Polish workers are estimated to be already living here.

The Government's move is a stark reversal of its position when it rebuked other EU member states for refusing open access to workers from the 10 accession states who joined in May 2004.

In May, Mr Ahern said: "We'll have to eventually look at Bulgaria and Romania but I'd rather see my colleagues being a bit more advanced."

Ireland, Britain and Sweden were the only countries that allowed workers from accession states to freely seek work in 2004.

To date, Finland is the only EU member to publicly announce it will allow Bulgarian and Romanian workers full access to jobs.

............

Fine Gael MEP Mairead McGuinness signalled difficulties for Bulgarian and Romanian job-seekers in Ireland in June.

She said: "The clear implication from the Taoiseach was that the decision about the free movement of citizens from Romania and Bulgaria would depend on what other member states, notably the UK, did in this regard."

There has been a growing campaign in Britain to deny access to workers from the two countries.

I have also come across some new info which I feel should be considered in this debate, from the Mail on Sunday in the UK:

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400435&in_page_id=1770

Bulgarian officials handing out thousands of passports to non Europeans

Ministers were under increasing pressure last night to abandon their open door immigration policy as it emerged Bulgaria is handing out tens of thousands of passports to non-EU foreigners who will soon be able to come to Britain.
Critics are predicting another massive influx of migrants when Romania and Bulgaria join the EU next January.

Bulgaria's already lax procedures for issuing passports are now said to be being exploited by corrupt officials who agree to fast-track passports for less than £200.

More than 20,000 people from countries such as Moldova and Macedonia have taken up Bulgarian citizenship in the past few years, and at least 55,000 more are believed to be on the waiting list.

The claims will add to existing fears in the UK about the large number of migrants - some with criminal records - who are expected to arrive next year.

A leaked Government memo has revealed that the Home Office itself believes up to a third of migrants ready to head to Britain from Romania and Bulgaria will be 'undesirables'.

Some 270,000 migrants came here from Eastern Europe last year – 20 times as many as the Government predicted when it decided to allow unfettered immigration from new EU member states, including Poland.

Yesterday it emerged that thousands of Eastern European migrants living in Britain are able to claim child benefit even for children they have left behind.

For the Tories, shadow home secretary David Davis said: 'It would be an incredible failure of judgement if the Government were to allow the same conditions to apply to Romania and Bulgaria as applied to the previous wave of Eastern European countries.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

I disagree. The govt parties have strongly hinted at controls on Romania and Bulgaria. Meanwhile Enda Kenny told Ursulla Halligan on "The Political Party" program that he would open our labour-markets to these 2 countries. What is all the more alarming is that this comes at a time when only Finland has agreed to unrestricted access to Romania and Bulgaria when they join the EU. I think there is very much a political debate on this issue, but that it is very low-key, as you would expect from the liberal-elites in the body-politic in this country. Pat Rabbitte fired a salvo in the debate on EU migration in the not too distant past when questioning freedom of movement from the 10 new EU states already in the club. So I very much believe that the political debate on this is far from over - indeed with a decision on the 2 new EU states pending I would argue it is only just beginning. Especially as the Irish Independent is reporting today that the govt has decided to control migration from them:

I'm not sure what your point is anymore.
Enda Kenny said he will open up labour markets so the two new countries will have the same access as the 10 before; Pat Rabbitte did not question the free movement of people in the EU, he questioned their ability to work freely and the effect what he called "cheap labour" will have on Irish workers; completely different to stopping them coming here full stop.

The article from the Independent is also focused on imposing work permits, it doesn't mention anything to do with stopping access to the country... the point here is that the Irish government cannot stop people coming to Ireland they can just limit their ability to work legally.

As I said, anything a politician tries to tell you about stopping an influx of workers is scare mongering; they can stop them taking the official jobs but it'll just increase the black market and has a higher chance of creating problems.

Until you show me exactly how the Irish government or an EU government can stop people coming into this country legally then I'm afraid there's no point in continuing on this topic.

New_Departure06

flogen wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is anymore.
Enda Kenny said he will open up labour markets so the two new countries will have the same access as the 10 before; Pat Rabbitte did not question the free movement of people in the EU, he questioned their ability to work freely and the effect what he called "cheap labour" will have on Irish workers; completely different to stopping them coming here full stop.

The article from the Independent is also focused on imposing work permits, it doesn't mention anything to do with stopping access to the country... the point here is that the Irish government cannot stop people coming to Ireland they can just limit their ability to work legally.

As I said, anything a politician tries to tell you about stopping an influx of workers is scare mongering; they can stop them taking the official jobs but it'll just increase the black market and has a higher chance of creating problems.

Until you show me exactly how the Irish government or an EU government can stop people coming into this country legally then I'm afraid there's no point in continuing on this topic.

Here is evidence that EU rules do allow for controls (transitional) to be imposed one new members. Denmark's restrictions on the new EU states make getting a residence-permit dependent on finding a job, after the relevant persons get a work-permit:

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2004_02_27/eu/working_restrictions.htm

Denmark
During the summer of 2003, Denmark had originally pledged to let migrants from the 10 new EU member states work without any restrictions, but has meanwhile changed its mind. Immigrants from these countries will be able to go to Denmark for up to six months, but will have no automatic access to benefits. However, if these job-seekers are successful, they will be granted residence and work permits.

And even if you were correct, surely you can't seriously deny that opening a labour-market completely by abolishing the need for work-permits is going to greatly increase immigration from the source countries? Look at how PPS no.s have soared for workers from Eastern European countries since EU Enlargement. I don't think its credible to argue that 250,000 Eastern Europeans were already here working illegally before June 2004.

philologos

with 80% of population growth coming from immigration in the UK they have to do something in fairness

mike65

The best they can do (and Ireland) is to introduce an Aussie style points system.

Mike.

flogen

New_Departure06 wrote:

Here is evidence that EU rules do allow for controls (transitional) to be imposed one new members. Denmark's restrictions on the new EU states make getting a residence-permit dependent on finding a job, after the relevant persons get a work-permit:

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2004_02_27/eu/working_restrictions.htm

That link and quote backs up everything everyone else has been saying here; they can limit work permits but they cant stop people coming to the country; they might get no benefits but illegal workers don't generally get that anyway.

And even if you were correct, surely you can't seriously deny that opening a labour-market completely by abolishing the need for work-permits is going to greatly increase immigration from the source countries? Look at how PPS no.s have soared for workers from Eastern European countries since EU Enlargement. I don't think its credible to argue that 250,000 Eastern Europeans were already here working illegally before June 2004.

Huh? Well citizens from the 10 assession states didn't have the freedom to travel before June 2004, as far as I'm aware they needed visas etc.
I'm not sure what size the illegal workforce was then or is now but from what I understand the availability of work doesn't dictate the amount of people coming into the country, it just dictates the amount of non-nationals that are accounted for in official terms.
To try and compare the influx of legitimate Polish workers to Ireland compared to those working illegally in Belgium, for example, is impossible, unless you somehow know how to track a community that lives in unofficial terms. Just because we've handed out PPS numbers to non-national workers doesn't mean we're the only country in the EU facing large numbers of immigrants, it's just that we have a far better idea of how many live here than others do.

To stop people from freely working without being able to stop them coming in without restrictions is pointless; the fact is that the poor income from black market work in Ireland is probably still better than the standard rate of pay in Bulgaria or Romania and so people will come here. We could impose restricted work permits and keep official and documented workers out but to assume that it has cut real immigration levels would be an act of burying our heads in the sand; just because they don't fill in the Census form, get a PPS number or pay tax doesn't mean they don't exist.

billy the squid

Restricting the ability of the two countries people to work here defeats the purpose of them joining the EU in my opinion. If they are not allowed to legally work here it will create a "black market" for employment as these people will still be able to come here as tourists.

Christ how quickly people forget that we were a poor and corrupt country when we joined the EEC. We don't have the authority to tell those who are now in a similar position to what we were in in the 1970s to go **** themselves now that we have made loads of money.

Not allowing Romanians and Bulgarians to work here will cause more employee displacement as there will be nothing to stop crooked employers from paying illegal workers less than minimum wage. If they were legal they would have to get at least minimum wage.

New_Departure06

billy the squid wrote:

Restricting the ability of the two countries people to work here defeats the purpose of them joining the EU in my opinion. If they are not allowed to legally work here it will create a "black market" for employment as these people will still be able to come here as tourists.

Christ how quickly people forget that we were a poor and corrupt country when we joined the EEC. We don't have the authority to tell those who are now in a similar position to what we were in in the 1970s to go **** themselves now that we have made loads of money.

Not allowing Romanians and Bulgarians to work here will cause more employee displacement as there will be nothing to stop crooked employers from paying illegal workers less than minimum wage. If they were legal they would have to get at least minimum wage.

Of course most of those leaving Ireland after joining the EEC/EU didn't go to Europe as you well know. In any case, there is a world of difference between emigration from a small country and from a large country, as you well know too! And if it was the only way to prevent movement on an open-door basis, I would say tear up the Accession Treaties with Romania and Bulgaria (or at least the former with 22.5 million people) and offer a "privileged partnership" instead. Enlargement is going too fast for public-opinion in the EU to digest. There is a famine of democracy in the process - we are the only electorate to get a direct say on EU Enlargement and polls throughout the EU demonstrate increasingly hostility to the project. We need to slow down and take stock.

neolxs

Hi all,

I just wanted to add to this debate as someone who lived in the UK and now lives in Ireland.

I have recently just lost my job through my probation period. I have been working in Retail Management in the Uk and Ireland for over 20 years. I recentlly changed from one Irish company to another.

However I lost my position after just 4 months through my 9 month probation period.

Ive only just found out that my job has been given to a Management Trainee from Slovakia!

I had to sign on through the welfare system as Unemployment registration takes 5-6 weeks to process. When I enquired as to why I was told that they are extremly busy processing new claims!

Welfare advised me that I could claim housing benefit to help towards my rent. To do this you must take the form to the local council (GALWAY) have them fill in your housing needs and then bring the form back to welfare.

When I went to the council I was told that it takes 6-8 weeks for them to fill out the form, (1 a4 page) and in the mean time I have to claim for a council house! I asked why did I have to claim for a council house as I did not need one and why did it take so long to fill out what was a really short form?

The awnser I received was that it was red tape that I had to claim for a council house. But she said dont worry theres no way youll be given one as we have none left and even if one came up it would be given to migrants! Secondly she explained that the reason it takes 6-8 weeks and not the usual two is that due to the massive influx in migration the council were overworked in processing all the non national claims on top of the irish claims.

I returned to wefare to explain this to them, and I expalined that it was going to about 10 weeks before I would have the form from the council, and in the meantime how would I pay my rent.

Her awnser was that there was nothing they could do!

Meanwhile whiles I was waiting, a young family from somewhere in Eastern Europe, all dressed in Adidas sportswear had just been granted Rent Supplement, Welfare allowance Back to school allowance, Child Benefit and Got back into what looked like a new People carrier and drove off!

Futhermore I contacted to my previous employer to see if there was any chance of getting my old job back. I was told that I could but I would this would be paid €8,000 less that what i earned 4 months previous.

I was previously earning €35,000 per year but was now being told that I could have my job back on €27,000! When I asked why I was told that there was no longer a need to pay top wages as there is a influx of people for the same position willing to except that wage.

So when people say that migration is good look at my experperience, hold onto the jobs you have and place your votes wisely next year.

Reading other comments hear I just wanted to give you these thoughts,

In the Uk it is announced today that nearly 1 in 5 people want to quit the UK, they are fed up with taxes etc.

Speraking to family in the UK I know for a fact that most English people are *issed off with doing a days job, working damn hard only to see there hard earned cash being pawned off to the long term unemployed, Migrants on benefits etc. My parents have to pay nearly €2,000 a year just to live in there house in council tax. €800 a year in water rates. My father only earns €300 per week. He used to earn €1,000 per week building roads, however his company got rid of everyone and replaced them with low paid workers from guess where! And my mother lost her job when the company closed down and re-located. She has been unable to findwork anywhere else due to her age and the fact thatshe was a low skilled worker and guess what the market is filled with!

And despite the fact that they only earn €300,00 per week there is not one single benefit to help them.

Compare that to the migrant worker or the unemployed person.

Only 3 countries allowed the last EU exspansion to give the right to workers from those countries to work throughout Europe. UK, Ireland and Sweden. No one is going to go to Sweden as most European migrants second language is English. So that limits them to the only english speaking countries that are left.

What has happened to Ireland in the last 10 years? I dont see any new hospitals, I dont see any changes to the way our welfare set up exists. For instance when I went to see the Welfare officer the other day she only has her office open 2 days a week. Between the hours of 10.15 to 1.15. This means that apart from sitting there for a long time, imagine a influx of new migrants claiming benefits. That means that our systems as there are now just simply cant cope. The only way to do this is to bring our services and hospitals upto date. But the only way this can be done is through money, and where do we get this money from TAX PAYERS!

Also whiles we continue to take in low skilled workers that means that they are low paid, which means they are intitled to receive FIS. If they have kids that also get our Child benefit payments regardless of how where there kids live. In Romania the annual wage is €2,500 per year!

Child benefit will pay 1,800 per year for one kid!

Look at irish Hospitals, look at how the waiting times have doubled, operation waiting lists, look at how much your private insurance now costs. all this is due to the massive increase in population and no increase in hospitals and services.

And our politicians say we need these migrants? WHY?
What businesses were going bust due to the lack of workers?
We had the Celtic tiger without the need of migrant workers so why do we need them now, most arent paying tax, most havent even changed there car plates to irish.

The main problem all this will cause is RACISM. I was open minded, I beleived in Europe, but how can most of Europe tell these migrants to bugger off with only Ireland and the UK picking up the tab?

Only when all of Europe is equally paid and equally open minded with the same policies I feel we should except these new migrants. And why the hell are these countries being allowed to join anyway, There rife with crime and add nothing to Europe at all.

The only thing i will be asking when all the politicians come knocking on my door before next May is what the hell are you going to do about the migrants.

This country in a few years will get a shock. We will become a high tax, high unemployed poor standard and services country. And the only difference this time will be that there will be know European money to bail us this time as all that money will be spent on the new poorer nations like Romania.

fly_agaric

neolxs wrote:

Hi all,
So when people say that migration is good look at my experperience, hold onto the jobs you have and place your votes wisely next year.

I wouldn't expect too much from the good posters on boards.ie.

Someone will be along any minute to waffle about "knackers" or "scumbags" and tell you how glad they are that some nice bright and chippy E. European migrant workers are doing the all the lower skill jobs for less money and forcing the scowling and shabbily-dressed "scum" out.

EDITED TO REMOVE A SOMEWHAT NASTY COMMENT....

mike65

In the Uk it is announced today that nearly 1 in 5 people want to quit the UK, they are fed up with taxes etc.

Only 20%? Thats pretty low, on any given day many people feel like jacking it all in for a sunnier climate, a lazy lifestyle etc!

neolxs, as for your own expierences all it reflects to me is the poor state of our public services, they always were second rate so regardless of migrants that would be true.

And our politicians say we need these migrants? WHY?
What businesses were going bust due to the lack of workers?
We had the Celtic tiger without the need of migrant workers so why do we need them now, most arent paying tax, most havent even changed there car plates to irish.

Baseless assertion I'd call the above (apart from the car plates).

If you are registered to work here you are paying tax unless the employer is pulling a fast one which could be the case but unlikely on a large scale.

As for the need for migrant labour the unemplyment rate is proof that they are needed. If they were'nt the rate would be far higer than it is. Buisnesses don't go bust due to lack of labour they simply don't grow.

Mike.