ID cards for Immigrants

banaman

Does this seem fair or workable to you?
I seem to recall that during the last debate about ID cards it was pointed out that they don't stop those who wish to ignore the law from doing so.
Also they are expensive to administer.
Aslylum seekers, workers on visas, foreign students, etc already have to have a photo ID card isued by the GNIB (Garda National Immigration Bureau). So what difference will having Bio-metric data on it make?

In the UK only those convicted of a crime can have their fingerprints and DNA records kept, I assume the same safegaurds are in place here.
If so, why are perfectly law-abiding, legally resident people being treated as criminals?
Mind you the Dept of Justice, Equality & Law Reform does have a paranoid mind-set when it comes to those from outside the state, (i.e. all foreigners are dangerous, probably criminal, if given the chance, so we need to control and seperate them from the local population to safeguard our Irish way of life).

I can't see how this scheme is going to be workable.
To illustrate this I offer 2 scenarios:-
1) I know a young woman, who, though she has lived all her life in South America, is an Irish citizen.
She does not look like the stereotypical Irish woman in her late 20s and her English is heavily accented i.e. she sounds "Latino".
So if stopped by the Gardai as a possible Illegal immigrant and asked for her Bio-metric ID card she will say, quite rightly
" I'm an Irish citizen I don't need one."
What will the Garda's response be? Accept her at her word, (and risk letting someone who is undocumented escape) or assume that she is an "illegal" and pursue the matter, perhaps even arresting her?
If she is arrested then, presumably, she has a case for wrongful arrest and compensation.

2)Take the case of a refugee, person on a work permit/visa or Leave to Remain who will have to carry a Bio-metric card.
In order to integrate fully this person, after 5 years, decides to "naturalise"and become an Irish citizen.
So, on the day before their Irish papers come through they must carry this card but on the day that they become a citizen they no longer need it.
If they are then stopped by the Gardai, say at a random breath and road tax checkpoint, how are they going to be treated when they say "I don't need the card I'm an Irish citizen"?
Of course if they "look" Irish then they will probably be believed, or at least, be given "the benefit of the doubt".

This, in practice, will be open to abuse and harrsssment of perfectly respectable people. For example what criteria will the Gardai use when deciding whether to ask someone for their ID card? Presumably whether they "look Irish".
In other words it will be judged on perceived racial characteristics. Like the "stop and search" laws in the UK it will only serve to create resentment and alienate sectors of society.

I think this is a case of "playing the race card" before the election and as such it is cynical and, worse, inflammatory.

New_Departure06

This is right and proper. It will help combat illegal immigration into this country, and help prevent abuse of the social-welfare system by multiple-ID scam-artists that have been reported on in the press over the years. Having an ID-card with biometric information will eliminate the risk of identity-fraud and help crack down on criminals who may be using a false ID to evade justice. However I feel a nationwide ID-card system is needed with a Nationality field in order that everyone can be required to produce their ID card to confirm their nationality. If they are lying that would be found out by comparing their iris/finger-print on the card with their actual one. I think we need to introduce this on an EU-wide basis with the cards doubling-up as passports so we can stop illegals at the ports before they get on flights/ships to other EU states.

MySelf56

Coincidence I have replied on the other thread.;)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51963833&postcount=19

When you say non-eu migrant mostly 85% compose of Indian/Pakistani/Bagladeshi/Phillipines/Chinese/African migrant workers, that composition it self tells you whats going on. It is just Scare mongering or election gimmick. Diversion of suicide in mount joy.

can any body explain how it works? Biometric to social welfare? Any examples? Instead banging the key board with some fancy words.

InFront

The OP makes a very interesting and a very valid point about the practicality of an ID card system.
For a proper system of detection of illegal immigrants, you'd need all Irish citizens to have ID cards with them at all times.

And then there's always the thought police...

Akrasia

InFront wrote:

The OP makes a very interesting and a very valid point about the practicality of an ID card system.
For a proper system of detection of illegal immigrants, you'd need all Irish citizens to have ID cards with them at all times.

And then there's always the thought police...

or perhaps worse, it would require all 'foreign looking' irish citizens to carry these ID cards too. I have a friend who is half indian half irish, born and raised here, and under these proposals, he would have to go around proving his Irishness to people for the rest of his life just because his skin is a little darker than mine.

and that is even before all the privacy and civil liberties issues are considered.

This card would require a database of participants biometric data, which is open to exploitation, and how long will it be before the government upgrades the card to 'RFID' chips (under the guise of efficiency and convenience) which can broadcast the biometric data without the owners permission or knowledge which is also open to massive corruption.

DublinWriter

I'm confused. Doesn't the current GNIB card cover this?

sovtek

This sounds suspiciously like the thread I started last week.
No this is not workable. Justice has already stepped in the wrong direction with exhorbitant fee (€100) for a required card for all non-eu nationals. This is already affecting student visas and work programs for Ireland. They will not want to come here if they are being gouged for this fee already in place. With bio-metric they will obviously raise the fee much higher and they will suffer further. That's forgetting that this is essentially a foreignor tax.
Furthermore this will not stop bogus asylum seekers and I have yet to see any evidence that there is a major problem with bogus asylum seekers.
I think the EU should look into this!

Hobbes

The current GNIB card is not an ID card. So it can't be used to prove you are allowed to stay here. It is only a card used at the GNIB. So bio-metric data while can be taken there is no reason it can't be on the system and not on the card.

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

The current GNIB card is not an ID card. So it can't be used to prove you are allowed to stay here. It is only a card used at the GNIB. So bio-metric data while can be taken there is no reason it can't be on the system and not on the card.

They are essentially using it as an ID card though. All your visa information is accessable using that card AFAIK. It will still also cost more to gather and store...which no doubt we will have to pay.
The process to get the €100 fee out of us now probably costs as much as it's highly inefficient. I have no faith the future system will be more so.

Hobbes

sovtek wrote:

They are essentially using it as an ID card though. All your visa information is accessable using that card AFAIK.

To the GNIB only. Customs can also access this information and any Gardai place with a computer probably could too, or request it.

But it has on the card itself "This is not an ID card" or should not be used as an ID card.

Actually storing the data on the card itself is extremly stupid. I can only assume some company getting in cosy with a TD to try and get this pushed through to make more cash.

Victor

Hey, how about they actually take pictures* that actually look like the person?


* The pictures tend to be out of focus and badly lit.

egan007

They should make all Immigrants wear a star of David on their shoulder to identify them.

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

To the GNIB only. Customs can also access this information and any Gardai place with a computer probably could too, or request it.

But it has on the card itself "This is not an ID card" or should not be used as an ID card.

Actually storing the data on the card itself is extremly stupid. I can only assume some company getting in cosy with a TD to try and get this pushed through to make more cash.

Yea I know it says that. Either way you have to show it whenever it's requested and carry it at all times supposedly. You have to have it when going through immigration when re entering Ireland.
And they are now charging us for the priviledge. A process that probably costs more than the fee.
Yea I'm sure someone's brother-in-law is getting into the bio-metric business very soon.

Hobbes

I dont think you need to carry it going through customs. Just a valid passport with stamp.

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

I dont think you need to carry it going through customs. Just a valid passport with stamp.

Not customs but you do have to show it to immigration.

sovtek

egan007 wrote:

They should make all Immigrants wear a star of David on their shoulder to identify them.

Yeah really...bloody foreignors...coming over here...stealing our women and our jobs.

banaman

According to the "leaked" articles the Minister is proposing that
1) the authorities can bypass existing procedures such as courts, appeals, habeus corpus and rights to a fair and unbiased trial or tribunal.
All fascists love these sorts of absolute power away from prying eyes and notions of fairness and justice.
I didn't realise Ireland wanted or needed such a firm hand.

2) forbid suspected illegal immigrants or asylum seekers from marrying as a basis for their application
So DJELR are going to tell me who I can or cannot marry. I may wait till this lunatic scheme gets enacted then marry an asylum seeker just to watch them squirm. Its part of my human right of free association that I can marry who I wish.
Also the article was sub-headed "new Measures to be modelled on tough US Immigration Laws"
Why are we going to follow the US immigration model? The US has massive levels of illegal immigration, and its rules cause untold levels of pain and heartache, ask the families of the Irish Illegals.
I wouldn't say the US is a shining beacon of racial harmony and integration either, so why should we emulate their example?

Hobbes

sovtek wrote:

Not customs but you do have to show it to immigration.

Not in the airport/docks you don't. Your passport is fine. The only place it is ever used is in the GNIB.

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote:

Not in the airport/docks you don't. Your passport is fine. The only place it is ever used is in the GNIB.

My wife and I were coming back from England a few weeks ago and she was asked to show her GNIB card in the airport.

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

Not in the airport/docks you don't. Your passport is fine. The only place it is ever used is in the GNIB.

I've always been asked for my GNIB card.

Ker

I always get asked for my GNIB card at the airport. Was a little taken aback last week when I went to get it renewed and the Guard told me it was now costing me €100! I've not found any info on why they decided to start charging and how they came up with a figure of €100.

One thing they don't mention about the newer biometric cards, is that they normally take your passport off you when you apply (or renew) your GNIB card. I've told the Guard the past few years that I needed mine to travel so I didn't hand it in, but imagine them having your passport and you getting stopped and asked for ID? Sorry mate, the Guards have it. No Passport, no GNIB card. What happens then?

sovtek

Ker wrote:

I always get asked for my GNIB card at the airport. Was a little taken aback last week when I went to get it renewed and the Guard told me it was now costing me €100! I've not found any info on why they decided to start charging and how they came up with a figure of €100.

My company is complaining to Justice about the new charge. The excuse they gave was all the "security" measures involved in the cards (even though they've been the same for years now). Laughable!

Ancient1

Ker wrote:

One thing they don't mention about the newer biometric cards, is that they normally take your passport off you when you apply (or renew) your GNIB card. I've told the Guard the past few years that I needed mine to travel so I didn't hand it in

Do you have a source for this?

What do you mean "the past few years"? I've never been asked to hand in my passport nor have I ever heard of such a thing.

sovtek

Ancient1 wrote:

Do you have a source for this?

What do you mean "the past few years"? I've never been asked to hand in my passport nor have I ever heard of such a thing.

I doubt there's an easy source to come by. Even if you call Justice and ask them about this, different people will give you different answers. I've heard of this happening although I haven't had it happen to me. The Immigrant Council told this can happen.

Elmo

This is just another one of McDowell's go no where policies that helps no one but his own political career as it makes it look like he is doing something.

Why won't it work.

Well no EU Citizen will be required to carry one of these BioMetric cards.

So anyone who is anyway afraican, asian, eastern european looking will look suspect to the Gardai and when the garda (or garda reserve) asks for an ID from an EU citizen who is in anyway "foreign" looking and they cann't produce one (since they are not legal required to carry one) the garda may arrest them for not carrying the card (by mistake), and it is unlikely that these "foreign" looking people won't be carrying their Passport with them.

So for this system to work we will need to all carry a National Identity card.

I think we are one of the only countries in Europe not to have a National Identity card.

I disagree with anyone having to carry around cards to ID themselves.

This current system is like getting them to put a STAR around their arms.

Also are the following required to carry a biometric card

Austrailians, New Zealanders, Americans (the most of the contenant as very few american countries are visa required) and South Afraicans etc ?

What do Tourist provide? Perhaps we like our european counter parts will be asking for our tourist to provide details of their passports at their Hotel Reception.

ArthurDent

Can't see how this system is going to be workable - so only non-EU nationals will be required to carry these new cards - fair enough. Deportation for those non-eu nationals not obeying laws of land - again fair enough.
But how the hell do you identify a non-eu national from every other joe or josephine soap waking down the street? I'm presuming it would be 'cos they "look foreign". There have to be thousands of Irish people that "look foreign". I've just looked in my wallet to see what ID I have that would identify me as Irish or an EU national. I have the usual bank/credit/tesco cards - nothing there, a social services card for collecting the new early childcare allowance - says Irl on it, but not that I'm Irish and my drivers license - nothing that indicates nationality - although does give my place of birth (but how many Irish people have places of birth that are outside Ireland). I suppose luckily for me I "look Irish", but what if I didn't - if I was African or Aisian looking - how the hell do I prove I'm Irish and don't have to carry this new identity card?

Ancient1

sovtek wrote:

I doubt there's an easy source to come by. Even if you call Justice and ask them about this, different people will give you different answers.

No doubt about that!

sovtek wrote:

I've heard of this happening although I haven't had it happen to me. The Immigrant Council told this can happen.

Perhaps it's possible under certain circumstances, but it's most definitely not the norm. No one can keep your passport unless you are being detained or unless the courts ask you to surrender it to the Polizei.

As for the ID cards, I really don't care. Where I come from ID cards are the norm. While I am against them, there is nothing I can do about it. And it ain't my country either, so I'll just have to swallow it and that's that.

Elmo

As for the ID cards, I really don't care. Where I come from ID cards are the norm. While I am against them, there is nothing I can do about it. And it ain't my country either, so I'll just have to swallow it and that's that.

Do all citizen of your country required to carry an ID card? If yes then this system is different to your country.

You live in Ireland, you work here, you pay taxes (and even if you don't) you have a right to say how this country is run.

There are even some elections you can vote in. Local Elections?

If you live here or in any country you have the right to freedom of speech.

This issue effects you more then it effects me or McDowell. Why would I care who carries an ID card or not?

As for Irish people we shouldn't always have to follow the "norm" of other countries.

GNIB take passports stamp them and give back the passport and GNIB card a few days later, It's the norm with GNIB. It can take up to 3 days for some people to get their cards and passports back, they are given a date on which to collect their documents. This is in Burgh Quay, I don't think it happen in GNIB offices in garda stations around the country.

Ancient1

Elmo wrote:

Do all citizen of your country required to carry an ID card? If yes then this system is different to your country.

Yes. I may be wrong, but I think that even citizens of most EU countries need to carry ID cards (not talking about biometric ones, btw). For example in Germany, it's normal for the coppers to stop you on the street and ask you for ID. It's happened to me hundreds of times - this is considered routine.

Elmo wrote:

You live in Ireland, you work here, you pay taxes (and even if you don't) you have a right to say how this country is run.

I've been here for quite a few years now, I have an excellent job in a tech company and I make very decent money (never enough though ). Even so, every time the government dabbles in immigration matters I get jittery. I'd rather not kick up a fuss. But this is understandable, immigration on this scale has never been seen here before and the government is learning on the go. I'm sure one day there will be a proper immigration system in place, but at the moment I can't help but feel that everything is still done on an experimental basis.

Elmo wrote:

As for Irish people we shouldn't always have to follow the "norm" of other countries.

No, you shouldn't. I think people in Ireland and the UK feel very differently about ID cards compared to the rest of Europe.

Hobbes

Apart from the price the question becomes why only Foriegners? If you are born in Ireland but don't look like your typical Irish person.

Do you risk being detained or worse deported as an illegal alien if you don't have an GNIB card or passport on you?

The only solution for that is for everyone to have an ID card.

Ker

Ancient1 wrote:

Do you have a source for this?

What do you mean "the past few years"? I've never been asked to hand in my passport nor have I ever heard of such a thing.

The first year I was here, the guard that deals with immigration took my passport and handed it back a few weeks later with my new GNIB card. They had to send it off to Dublin or somesuch. Last year when I got it renewed he asked for my passport (again to send it to Dublin), but as I was travelling the next week, he just stamped it then and there. This year, he again asked me to hand it in, but I have to go to Britain tomorrow, so I need it. Every year he has asked me to hand it in, but didn't seem too worried when I asked to keep a hold of it. I'd just be worried about people that don't ask (as I didn't the first year I was here).

Perhaps it is just different garda stations or immigrations officers.