Dublin Bus Capacity

godtabh

Whats the story with over loading on buses?

Every now and again I'll be on a bus that it gets so packed that it would be impossible to get off (I missed a stop once cause it took so long to get off).

On the bus it clearly states what the capcity of the bus is. X amount standing. Y amount sitting etc.

It seems to me that the bus is well over its capacity yet the bus driver still lets people on. Can the bus driver tell how many people are on the bus?

All it will need is one crash and a hell of a lot of people could easily hurt themselfs or even be killed

Wishbone Ash

kearnsr wrote:

Whats the story with over loading on buses?

Every now and again I'll be on a bus that it gets so packed that it would be impossible to get off (I missed a stop once cause it took so long to get off).

On the bus it clearly states what the capcity of the bus is. X amount standing. Y amount sitting etc.

It seems to me that the bus is well over its capacity yet the bus driver still lets people on. Can the bus driver tell how many people are on the bus?

All it will need is one crash and a hell of a lot of people could easily hurt themselfs or even be killed

The bus may frequently appear to be full but the seats (especially on top if a double decker) may not be fully occupied. Passengers tend to congregate near the front. It is difficult for the driver to ascertain the total number of passengers and he/she would not be too popular if stopping to count them.

The driver is in a no win situation - if he passes potential passengers they will also complain.

The total number of passengers permitted is posted on buses. It is usually quite a lot. A Mercedes Citaro articulated bus may legally take 143 passengers.

It could be argued that a full bus is safer than a half empty bus if the driver is forced to brake suddenly.

Irish buses are not generally crowded compared to many other countries.

BrianD3

I've also noticed this on Bus Eireann single deckers. Numerous times I have seen more people standing than permitted. Eg 5 or 6 might be permitted to stand but virtually the full length of the aisle can be crammed with standers so that's a lot more than 5 or 6. In this day and age with compo culture I'm surprised that it goes on. It might seem harsh leaving people at a bus stop because the bus is already at capacity. But OTOH what happens if the driver does take on extra standers, has a crash and one of them breaks their neck.

snappieT

This is why I'm giving up on Dublin Bus and moving into the city centre instead.

Chris_533976

Its cos people are sheep and dont want to go to the back of the bus for some reason. You're more likely to miss your stop if you stand at the back of the standing pile, because the driver cant see you because of a herd of standing idiots.

If everyone was well behaved and sat down, then the driver could EASILY see whats going on and noone would miss a stop.

John R

BrianD3 wrote:

I've also noticed this on Bus Eireann single deckers. Numerous times I have seen more people standing than permitted. Eg 5 or 6 might be permitted to stand but virtually the full length of the aisle can be crammed with standers so that's a lot more than 5 or 6. In this day and age with compo culture I'm surprised that it goes on. It might seem harsh leaving people at a bus stop because the bus is already at capacity. But OTOH what happens if the driver does take on extra standers, has a crash and one of them breaks their neck.

The driver is screwed in that situation, the bus company will quote the regulation and deny any responsibility although their insurance will still cover it. Bye-bye licence and job for the driver at the minimum.

The only reason this hasn't been highlighted in a big way is that serious bus accidents are very rare.

Being harsh and sometimes leaving people at the roadside is the correct option in those instances. It can be very hard to do though, especially when the passengers have been let on and paid their fare before the lack of seats is found out.

Single-deckers with standing passengers are restricted to 40mph.

Bogger77

If the driver uses the on board ticket machine correctly, he or she'll have a pretty accurate number of all people on board. During rush hour, most experienced drivers would have an accurate count of the numbers on board, and the amount of spare seats on upper decks. One my mates, whose a Bus Eireann city bus driver, useta be able to hold a running count of number of people, and the fares paid. He was accurate within two or 3 people over the course of 3 hour period. Flat fares, with no stages, but still a pretty remarkable skill.

Bogger77

John R wrote:

Single-deckers with standing passengers are restricted to 40mph.

Dublin City center buses would be lucky to hit 10mph during the period from 3.30 to 7.30pm

Dub13

Bogger77 wrote:

If the driver uses the on board ticket machine correctly, he or she'll have a pretty accurate number of all people on board. During rush hour, most experienced drivers would have an accurate count of the numbers on board, and the amount of spare seats on upper decks.

How...?The ticket machine can not tell if a passenger has gotten of the bus or is still on board.

Zhane

Dub13 wrote:

How...?The ticket machine can not tell if a passenger has gotten of the bus or is still on board.

But they know where the person is heading to.

Dub13

Zhane wrote:

But they know where the person is heading to.

Not with day,monthly & yearly tickets...not to mention OAP passengers and people overriding there stop.

godtabh

Was on the bus this morning

You can have 49 up stairs
27 sitting down stairs
15 standing.

The bus I was on last night had about 6 upstaits standing. Some on the stairs and jammers downstairs

_Kaiser_

Daily occurence and one reason why I gave up on public transport - the overcrowding.

I bet there was an (half) empty bus following yours too :rolleyes:

godtabh

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Daily occurence and one reason why I gave up on public transport - the overcrowding.

I bet there was an (half) empty bus following yours too :rolleyes:

I was on the 67A. A min after I got off a 67 went by empty

godtabh

On the 66B this evening there was 20 people standing.

In fairness the bus driver stopped letting people on after that.

In light of the strike at least the drives can see there is a need for new buses. I just dont agree about the way are going about it

Red Alert

The RH's (now RIP) and some RA's are actually certified to hold 20 standees. What type of bus was it?

Wishbone Ash

Bus capacity notice:

Bogger77

Dub13 wrote:

How...?The ticket machine can not tell if a passenger has gotten of the bus or is still on board.

most tickets work on stages, for cash fares at least.
and the system knows the stages.

the monthly tickets do cause problems, but at rush hour, it's usually a case of counting the numbers geting on board.

I've been on many buses where the drivers stopped taken on more.

godtabh

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Bus capacity notice:

What kind of bus was that?

Here is one I took this morning

Guy:Incognito

Bogger77 wrote:

most tickets work on stages, for cash fares at least.
and the system knows the stages.

Even in a perfect situation where everyone is paying cash, it could only know to within 3 or 4 stops how many people will be/are on board.

.

Bogger77 wrote:

I've been on many buses where the drivers stopped taken on more.

They generally stop when people are standing beside the driver and he literally cant fit any more on.

secret_squirrel

To be fair to the drivers there are a couple of buses in the evening where there are always moronic sheep standing in the way, when there's plenty of seats upstairs.

Wish they could remind passengers of that more regularly though....

Wishbone Ash

kearnsr wrote:

What kind of bus was that?

It was in a Mercedes Citaro (not Dublin Dus)

godtabh

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It was in a Mercedes Citaro (not Dublin Dus)

Not much use to use if its not being used by Dublin Bus. WHo runs it?

Wishbone Ash

kearnsr wrote:

Not much use to use if its not being used by Dublin Bus. WHo runs it?

Aircoach have six of them on their DAA Long Term Car Park contract.

darkflower

Originally Posted by secret_squirrel
Wish they could remind passengers of that more regularly though....

commuters sometimes prefer to stand than take a seat upstairs.dunno why?

_Kaiser_

darkflower wrote:

commuters sometimes prefer to stand than take a seat upstairs.dunno why?

Simple: because the drivers keep packing 'em in, and DB policy is such that you MUST exit by the front doors (even where dual-doors are provided.. the move to single-door AV/AX class deckers was just typical of what's wrong with public transport in Ireland IMO - if dual-door buses work in other countries, why not here??), getting down the stairs and up to the front can be a nightmare - especially if you/others have bags - while at the same time, the bus bounces around on our poorly surfaced roads because the drivers refuse to drive at a speed appropriate to these conditions.

Hence, easier to stand near the front (especially if not travelling that far) and avoid all that hassle.

SickCert

Bogger77 wrote:

If the driver uses the on board ticket machine correctly, he or she'll have a pretty accurate number of all people on board. During rush hour, most experienced drivers would have an accurate count of the numbers on board, and the amount of spare seats on upper decks. One my mates, whose a Bus Eireann city bus driver, useta be able to hold a running count of number of people, and the fares paid. He was accurate within two or 3 people over the course of 3 hour period. Flat fares, with no stages, but still a pretty remarkable skill.

The ticket machine also counts change tickets.
On a trip (84) from Newcastle to the city, on reaching Ballbridge where the crowds are waiting it will be displaying close to 300 tickets/passes issued validated.
What i hate about Nassau st or any busy stops is when i say bus full they tell me where to go or simply ignore me and continue pressing in, stance man should be there to help out.

Wishbone Ash

Kaiser2000 wrote:

if dual-door buses work in other countries, why not here

Because in other countries, you would not have as many skangers trying to enter the bus without a valid ticket via the centre doors, while passengers are alighting.

godtabh

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Because in other countries, you would not have as many skangers trying to enter the bus without a valid ticket via the centre doors, while passengers are alighting.

Wasnt it also the case for a long time that the unions wouldnt allow the use of dual doors? I think this might have changed after DB bought the single door buses

markpb

kearnsr wrote:

Wasnt it also the case for a long time that the unions wouldnt allow the use of dual doors? I think this might have changed after DB bought the single door buses

Between the foothpaths not being built properly and people not parking properly, drivers were afraid to let people out through the middle door because they might be injured. Apparently under crazy Irish law, the driver would be responsible and since DB can't force their drivers to put themselves in the way of a court case, they can't force them to let people out the middle doors. Middle doors, not being used, froze up and, because of an interlock, can cause the bus to be put out of service.

It's such a sham that this sort of thing can't be sorted out. London has one authority working as a unit to facilitate public transport. Dublin has tens of authorities fighting among themselves to see who can do the least with a prize for the group that can hinder public transport most.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Because in other countries, you would not have as many skangers trying to enter the bus without a valid ticket via the centre doors, while passengers are alighting.

I'm not sure about European cities but in LA, the middle door is released by the driver but the alighting passengers have to push it open from the inside. It closes as soon as they're off making it damn near impossible for anyone to get on through it. It's not great for accessibility but it does the trick. Also the lack of conductors or transport police in Dublin means there's no-one to catch fare-dodgers.

godtabh

markpb wrote:

Between the foothpaths not being built properly and people not parking properly

Wouldnt this apply to the front door as well? I dunno but I dont see this as a vaild reason behind not using the middle door.

I dont remember the exact exuse why the unions didnt allow the use of the middle door but this is the first time I've heard your reason.

Any DB drivers out there who could shed some light?

John R

The switch to single door was made primarily because of the difficulties of providing wheelchair access while keeping a useable layout without sacrificing too much seating capacity.

Practically all UK operations outside London switched to single door accessable buses as well. Cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Galsgow, etc all use single door buses now.

In London the wheelchair access is provided through the centre doors, that is not possible in Dublin as many bus stops are not available for the whole bus to pull up close enough. It is difficult enough for the nose of the bus to get close enough to many bus stops for safe ramp access.

shltter

kearnsr wrote:

Wouldnt this apply to the front door as well? I dunno but I dont see this as a vaild reason behind not using the middle door.

I dont remember the exact exuse why the unions didnt allow the use of the middle door but this is the first time I've heard your reason.

Any DB drivers out there who could shed some light?

That is exactly the reason and the unions did not prevent anyone from doing it if any driver wants to use the centre doors that is a matter for themselves.

The Labour court ruled that it was a Health and Safety issue and that because of the position in dublin regarding parking the poor state of a large number of stops etc that the company could not force drivers to use the centre doors and hold them responsible for any incidents while not providing a safe enviroment for using the centre doors.

The difference with the front doors is that the driver has some control over the situation it is easier to get the front of the bus in close to the footpath the driver is in close proximity to the passengers so if someone comes up the inside of the bus the driver can warn the passengers. The driver can see the condition of the footpath before the passengers start to alight etc

godtabh

shltter wrote:

That is exactly the reason and the unions did not prevent anyone from doing it if any driver wants to use the centre doors that is a matter for themselves.

The Labour court ruled that it was a Health and Safety issue and that because of the position in dublin regarding parking the poor state of a large number of stops etc that the company could not force drivers to use the centre doors and hold them responsible for any incidents while not providing a safe enviroment for using the centre doors.

The difference with the front doors is that the driver has some control over the situation it is easier to get the front of the bus in close to the footpath the driver is in close proximity to the passengers so if someone comes up the inside of the bus the driver can warn the passengers. The driver can see the condition of the footpath before the passengers start to alight etc

I'm still not convinced. If you have a link the the labour court or any other information I'd love to see it as I'm basing my argument on something a bus driver told me years ago.

shltter

kearnsr wrote:

I'm still not convinced. If you have a link the the labour court or any other information I'd love to see it as I'm basing my argument on something a bus driver told me years ago.

I dont care how convinced you are that is the story
search the labour court yourself if you want to

markpb

The Labour Court decided that:

It is the view of the Court that the operation of these doors as a normal feature should only be considered when the Company are
perfectly satisfied that the safety arrangements agreed have been fully implemented and are effective, operationally.

Subject to the above the Court considers that the centre doors should normally be operated. Recognising the responsibility of
the Driver for his vehicle and passengers, whilst he should normally operate the centre doors, he should carry out this
operation with prudence. Accordingly the Court considers that an instruction to compulsorily operate the centre doors at all times
would be inappropriate.

This quote from the middle of the page sums up Dublin quite nearly:

It would be foolhardy to implement compulsory use of centre doors in a city riddled with illegal parking, narrow streets and a public whose disregard for public transport regulations is well known.

godtabh

shltter wrote:

I dont care how convinced you are that is the story
search the labour court yourself if you want to

I didnt know you could get labour court verdicts online and since you mentioned it I was asking you to share what you knew.

Red Alert

AFAIK on the centre-door fitted AV's (a few ex-airlink ones) have ramps on both doors!

shltter

Red Alert wrote:

AFAIK on the centre-door fitted AV's (a few ex-airlink ones) have ramps on both doors!

They do they were bought specifically for the Airlink which is a completely different kettle of fish from normal city operations. They only make two or three stops and then it is straight out to the airport or straight from the Airport and then 2 or 3 drop off points.

The buses are not loading and unloading at the same stop at the same time like they do in normal city operations and the company has staff on hand at both termini which are fairly well policed.

shltter

kearnsr wrote:

I didnt know you could get labour court verdicts online and since you mentioned it I was asking you to share what you knew.

You asked the question I gave you the answer and you said you were not convinced
I had already shared what I knew and you were not happy with that.

godtabh

shltter wrote:

You asked the question I gave you the answer and you said you were not convinced
I had already shared what I knew and you were not happy with that.

You made a statement for all I knew was made up and I just aksed you to back it up. If I made a statement and I was asked to back it up with fact to prove my argument I would.

Some one else provided the information and now I can see what you said was correct but I'm not going to belive you because you said so

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

and the company has staff on hand at both termini which are fairly well policed.

Such a shame they can't share some of these staff amongst other routes to ensure they run just as efficiently. :rolleyes:

shltter

kearnsr wrote:

You made a statement for all I knew was made up and I just aksed you to back it up. If I made a statement and I was asked to back it up with fact to prove my argument I would.

Some one else provided the information and now I can see what you said was correct but I'm not going to belive you because you said so

I did not make a statement

You asked a question

I gave you the answer

If I was just making a statement and someone asked me to back it up that would be fair enough but you asked if any drivers knew what the story was I was helping you out by providing the answer to your query you chose not to believe me thats fine but I am not proving myself when answering your call for information.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Such a shame they can't share some of these staff amongst other routes to ensure they run just as efficiently. :rolleyes:

That would require a huge number of staff

Airlink is a commercial operation run by DB it involves having staff at Two termini

But I suppose if everyone was paying 5 euro one way or 9 euro return then they probably could afford to have extra staff and extra services perhaps you might email the DOT with that suggestion

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

That would require a huge number of staff

Airlink is a commercial operation run by DB it involves having staff at Two termini

But I suppose if everyone was paying 5 euro one way or 9 euro return then they probably could afford to have extra staff and extra services perhaps you might email the DOT with that suggestion

No it just proves the point that DB management/staff don't give a toss about the average customer - who I'm sure pay the larger share of fares - "commercial" Airlink services regardless (though your terminology makes me wonder what then they see the rest of the routes as? An inconvenience?)

markpb

Kaiser2000 wrote:

No it just proves the point that DB management/staff don't give a toss about the average customer - who I'm sure pay the larger share of fares - "commercial" Airlink services regardless (though your terminology makes me wonder what then they see the rest of the routes as? An inconvenience?)

I think he used the term commericial to show that its a route which doesn't operate under USO and makes money for the company, ie it doesn't receive a subsidy from the DoT.

There's no way DB could have staff at every bus stop in the city, you can't be serious about that? If the gardai enforced proper parking and the drivers in Dublin had the cop on not to park on top of or near to a bus stop, it's go a long way towards fixing this problem.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

No it just proves the point that DB management/staff don't give a toss about the average customer - who I'm sure pay the larger share of fares - "commercial" Airlink services regardless (though your terminology makes me wonder what then they see the rest of the routes as? An inconvenience?)

Non commercial services are referred to as Social services these are regulated by the DOT for fares and level of service etc for which DB recieves a subvention for providing those services and social welfare pass holders can travel for free

Commercial services are for example the Airlink ,the Nitelinks ,City tours private Hires DB recieves no subvention for these services and social welfare pass holders are not entitled to free travel.

And it proves nothing of the sort it proves that the provision of staff like that provided on commercial services would need
A amassive increase in the level of subvention
or
B a massive increase in the level of Fares
to pay for the increase in costs.

El Stuntman

which route do you drive ****ter?

_Kaiser_

markpb wrote:

There's no way DB could have staff at every bus stop in the city, you can't be serious about that? If the gardai enforced proper parking and the drivers in Dublin had the cop on not to park on top of or near to a bus stop, it's go a long way towards fixing this problem.

No, obviously staff at every terminus is unfeasible, but more random spot-checks on drivers and schedule adherence - in conjuction with actual enforcement of the parking/traffic regulations by our boys and girls in blue - would go a long way to improving the reliability of the service and ultimately present it as a viable alternative to the car, which (let's face it) unless you live on one of the high-frequency flagship routes, it's not at present.