Abbeylands shopping centre gets the go-ahead

fricatus

From the Munster Express, 25 August
http://www.munster-express.ie/news1.html

Shopping complex to transform Abbeylands

By Michelle Clancy

Construction is expected to commence imminently on a €50m shopping complex that will transform a 7-acre site at Abbeylands, Ferrybank into one of the premier shopping attractions in the region.

The 27,313 square metres development, to include retail units, a motor sales outlet, a medical centre, a gym, a childcare facility, a restaurant, apartments, a retail warehouse unit for the sale of bulky goods and offices and over 1000 car parking spaces, has been granted planning permission by Kilkenny County Council (subject to conditions) and will be located adjacent to the New Ross Road (N25). This followed a lengthy appeals process, during which Waterford City Council expressed concerns that, the scale of the proposed shopping complex could take business from city centre shops.

Accessible from the main Waterford-New Ross Road, the complex will comprise a large anchor tenant, as well as a number of individual retail units. The overall development will be significantly larger than both City Square (15,000 sq. metres) and the Lisduggan Shopping Centre (9,000 sq. metres). It will be made up of two buildings, the first of which will house the anchor tenant and 16 other retail units, a health and beauty centre, gym and fitness centre. The second building will include a motor sales outlet, drop-in childcare facilities, a restaurant and 12 apartments.

Kilkenny-based Deerland Construction Ltd. were originally given the ‘thumbs down’ by An Bord Pleanála last December for a mixed use complex at the Abbeylands site, in a decision that brought disappointment to many local residents. The proposed development had been opposed by Waterford City Council on the basis that it was too large in size, that it could significantly damage city-centre business in Waterford and that it contravened with the Kilkenny County Development Plan, which recommends that proposed retail development in the environs of Waterford city should only serve the local community in which it is based. Waterford Chamber of Commerce also voiced reservations about the development but did not go on to lodge an appeal with An Bord Pleanala.

Following An Bord Plenala’s rejection of the proposed development, the company decided to revise their plans and submitted a new proposal for a slightly larger development (27,313sq metres as opposed to the original 26,586sq metres) to Kilkenny County Council. This application was not opposed by Waterford City Council and Workers’ Party councillor Davy Walsh, who lives in Ferrybank, was quoted as saying that the city suburb was experiencing huge growth and in dire need of a shopping centre.

Speaking to The Munster Express yesterday (Thursday), a spokesperson for Waterford City Council said the local authority was unlikely to appeal the latest decision to An Bord Pleanala.

Deerland Construction Ltd., whose Managing Director is Kilkenny man Dermot McPhilips, have already developed shopping centres in Kilkenny, Mullingar and Dundalk.

merlante

Why don't we put the Brewery complex out in Passage East while we're at it...

road_high

It has only 16 units. That's tiny compared to most new shopping centres anywhere in the country.
I don't see how it could be bigger than that city centre one, city square as he says in the article?

Bards

This is meant to be onlyservicing the local area and not a larger catchment hwnce the reason it is only 16.

In the original plan Kilkenny County Council granted permission for something in the region of 50 units to directly compete with Waterford City Centre going aginst it's & Waterford City Concil's own PLUTS for the area hence the reason An Bord Pleanala turned down permission

road_high

Bards wrote:

This is meant to be onlyservicing the local area and not a larger catchment hwnce the reason it is only 16.

In the original plan Kilkenny County Council granted permission for something in the region of 50 units to directly compete with Waterford City Centre going aginst it's & Waterford City Concil's own PLUTS for the area hence the reason An Bord Pleanala turned down permission

But by the tone of that article you would think it was still 50 units. Significantly bigger than the City Square,I sincerely doubt that.

Baby4

This post has been deleted.

meldrew

Well whatever peoples opinions on it , a new shopping centre is badly neede d in Ferrybank which is expanding rapidly and needs those services , maybe the city councils thinking on it is when they get the boundary extension the shopping centre will then be in their area along with the rents so its a win win situation for them

merlante

I'm not really too familiar with the new plan to be honest. If the scale is more sensible then fair enough.

What the north city suburbs need an Ardkeen like village that can start with a shopping centre and grow over time. It needs to have this village within walking distance of the population. Just like with the Dunmore Rd. and Lisduggan, the city centre should take preference for comparison retail, as is the norm in all sensible urban development plans.

The problem is that the Deerlands construction appears to be out of walking distance for most people -- am I right? An out of town, car only accessible shopping centre would constitute bad planning and just reduce everyone's quality of life over there, I would have thought.

I think that if Waterford had the boundary extension granted this would be done properly... but others will disagree. Would love to see "greater ferrybank" sorted out so that there would actually be a reason for the rest of Waterford to go out there from time to time. Like the Dunmore Rd.

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meldrew wrote:

Well whatever peoples opinions on it , a new shopping centre is badly neede d in Ferrybank which is expanding rapidly and needs those services , maybe the city councils thinking on it is when they get the boundary extension the shopping centre will then be in their area along with the rents so its a win win situation for them

If that was their thinking then why did they oppose it at all in the first place!!
Strange how they constantly berate KKCC for not providing services in that particular area, but then when a private company wants to build a s centre there it is opposed by the very same council. Talk about double standards...

merlante

mfitzy wrote:

If that was their thinking then why did they oppose it at all in the first place!!
Strange how they constantly berate KKCC for not providing services in that particular area, but then when a private company wants to build a s centre there it is opposed by the very same council. Talk about double standards...

No double standards whatsoever.

They objected on the grounds of scale.

There are still only 5/6,000 people living in the area. The original shopping centre plan would have supported a population of 20,000+. Presumably half of that was expected to come from Waterford city. The city council were dead right to object.

With all this talk of retail leakage to Waterford, and 'Ferrybank without' being the second largest and fastest growing 'town' in Kilkenny, I suspect that the original plan was nothing more than a cynical ploy to cream off the Waterford retail spend.

If Kilkenny Co. Co. actually cared about the people of South Kilkenny they'd build a new village like Ardkeen and have a proper plan for the area. There'd be things like cycle tracks, etc., and they'd be petitioning Waterford City Co. and the government for a footbridge over the Suir into the city centre. Actually, they'd have done all that 15 years ago if they really cared.

The lack of vision for the area has seriously held it back. Waterford have never been able to develop it as part of the city, and Kilkenny forgot about it. Now people are moving out there because it is the closest you can buy to the city centre. All this development could and should have happened years ago.

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

If that was their thinking then why did they oppose it at all in the first place!!
Strange how they constantly berate KKCC for not providing services in that particular area, but then when a private company wants to build a s centre there it is opposed by the very same council. Talk about double standards...

It would have been still too large 50 Retail units is not a neighbourhood shopping centre.... at 50 units it was going to be a regional shopping centre sitting right on Waterford City's doorstep and thus taking business away from here.

As I said before would Kilkenny Co Co allow such a regional centre to be built within half a mile of Kilkenny "Dwarf City" belonging to another local authority.. I seriously doubt it and your local media would be bitching about it as much as the media was here.. now that's what I call Double Standards

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merlante wrote:

No double standards whatsoever.

They objected on the grounds of scale.

There are still only 5/6,000 people living in the area. The original shopping centre plan would have supported a population of 20,000+. Presumably half of that was expected to come from Waterford city. The city council were dead right to object.

With all this talk of retail leakage to Waterford, and 'Ferrybank without' being the second largest and fastest growing 'town' in Kilkenny, I suspect that the original plan was nothing more than a cynical ploy to cream off the Waterford retail spend.

If Kilkenny Co. Co. actually cared about the people of South Kilkenny they'd build a new village like Ardkeen and have a proper plan for the area. There'd be things like cycle tracks, etc., and they'd be petitioning Waterford City Co. and the government for a footbridge over the Suir into the city centre. Actually, they'd have done all that 15 years ago if they really cared.

The lack of vision for the area has seriously held it back. Waterford have never been able to develop it as part of the city, and Kilkenny forgot about it. Now people are moving out there because it is the closest you can buy to the city centre. All this development could and should have happened years ago.

This has been debated to death in the past already so I'm not going to say much more on it.
It is not just this part of KK in which services/infrastructure are so lacking, it is the same right across the county. I mean you should see the state of the swimming pool in Kilkenny, what a dump. This isn't the CC's fault, it is a governemnt funding issue- Kilkenny is continually passed over due to weak local TDs. County councils are very limited in what they can provide if central funds aren't forthcoming.
Now what should be done is a co-operative approach from both councils with a view to developing this area, so we can all move forward and have a properly developed s Kilkenny and south east region in general. If we can have further development slike this it means more people gain employment in the area, which can only be a good thing surely?
I mean, why should a county boundary in the same country be such a sticking point, and in some cases a source of even vitriol.

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

I mean, why should a county boundary in the same country be such a sticking point, and in some cases a source of even vitriol.

because the people of said area have to wait for Kilkenny Co Co to actually do something... whereas if this was in the City Boundary it would have been done long ago...

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Bards wrote:

because the people of said area have to wait for Kilkenny Co Co to actually do something... whereas if this was in the City Boundary it would have been done long ago...

Do you know this for a fact?
Far be it for me to defend a local authority (I don't really have much time for any of them), but as I've already said local authorities depend mainly on what funds are forthcoming (or not as is usually the case) form central powers and this dictates what they can do in provision of services and infrastrucure.

Bards

one only has to look at the presentation of the approaches to the City. in Kilkenny the approaches are prestine.. whereas on the approach to waterford from the Kilkenny side the place is not kept. Tall SHips race.. nothing was done. weeds were left to fester...

do you think that if Waterford administered this area it would be presented like this!!! the answer would be a big NO...

therein lies the problem.. Kilkenny Co Co as you pointed out has limited funds.. so are they going to waste them on a suburb of Waterford or spend them in their own borough...I think you know the answer to that one

merlante

mfitzy wrote:

Do you know this for a fact?
Far be it for me to defend a local authority (I don't really have much time for any of them), but as I've already said local authorities depend mainly on what funds are forthcoming (or not as is usually the case) form central powers and this dictates what they can do in provision of services and infrastrucure.

While local councils will never have enough money to do all the things they want to do, I don't think Kilkenny, for example, would have had considerably less cash than Waterford over the years. Also, much money comes from business rates, motor tax, stamp duty, etc., which makes a council's income and expenditure a strong function of population and population density. We know that Kilkenny receives more income from the boundary extension area than it spends there: millions more, in fact. We know this because one of Kilkenny Co. Co.'s objections to the boundary extension is that they will lose money if it goes through! (As opposed to wanting to get rid of it because it was costly to run.)

Obviously I can't say for sure what Waterford would do for south Kilkenny, BUT why would it be any worse off than Lisduggan or the Dunmore Road? Both of these suburbs are very well provided for (the Lisduggan centre is being upgraded).

South Kilkenny would have its own councillors in city hall to make sure that they get an equal share. The council chambers, the other councillors, etc. would be on their doorstep and could be visited/harassed easier. I believe that WLR would be a lot more responsive to complaints and pressure from south Kilkenny, that CKLR. Similarly with other Waterford city based media, as opposed to Kilkenny city based media. For me, it stands to reason that an area is better served being part of a city than being on the outskirts of a county.

Also, Waterford wants to develop south Kilkenny because it needs the room. The more the city develops only in a few directions (W,S,E), the more the city has to pay for roads, transport and infrastructure down the line. It's cheaper to have people in south Kilkenny which is closer to the city centre than the other suburbs.

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Bards wrote:

one only has to look at the presentation of the approaches to the City. in Kilkenny the approaches are prestine.. whereas on the approach to waterford from the Kilkenny side the place is not kept. Tall SHips race.. nothing was done. weeds were left to fester...

do you think that if Waterford administered this area it would be presented like this!!! the answer would be a big NO...

therein lies the problem.. Kilkenny Co Co as you pointed out has limited funds.. so are they going to waste them on a suburb of Waterford or spend them in their own borough...I think you know the answer to that one

I presume you are reffering to the terrible N9 approach to Waterford?I agree it is awful, and not in keeping with a city approach...But I would imagine the thinking is that the road is about to replaced anyway in a few years so why waste funds on them.
I take your point though on the Tall Ships, it was stupid of KK cc not to have at least cut a few weeds and tidy up before it started. That is no way to present a place to tourists. This area has (quite vocal) memebers on KK coco too, so surely they should shoulder blame for not represnting their area as those outside Kilkenny.

road_high

Bards wrote:

one only has to look at the presentation of the approaches to the City. in Kilkenny the approaches are prestine.. whereas on the approach to waterford from the Kilkenny side the place is not kept. Tall SHips race.. nothing was done. weeds were left to fester...

do you think that if Waterford administered this area it would be presented like this!!! the answer would be a big NO...

therein lies the problem.. Kilkenny Co Co as you pointed out has limited funds.. so are they going to waste them on a suburb of Waterford or spend them in their own borough...I think you know the answer to that one

I presume you are reffering to the terrible N9 approach to Waterford?I agree it is awful, and not in keeping with a city approach...But I would imagine the thinking is that the road is about to replaced anyway in a few years so why waste funds on them.
I take your point though on the Tall Ships, it was stupid of KK cc not to have at least cut a few weeds and tidy up before it started. That is no way to present a place to tourists. This area has (quite vocal) memebers on KK coco too, so surely they should shoulder blame for not represnting their area as well as those outside Kilkenny.

merlante

mfitzy wrote:

I presume you are reffering to the terrible N9 approach to Waterford?I agree it is awful, and not in keeping with a city approach...But I would imagine the thinking is that the road is about to replaced anyway in a few years so why waste funds on them.
I take your point though on the Tall Ships, it was stupid of KK cc not to have at least cut a few weeds and tidy up before it started. That is no way to present a place to tourists. This area has (quite vocal) memebers on KK coco too, so surely they should shoulder blame for not represnting their area as well as those outside Kilkenny.

This I just do not understand at all. Even those councillors are happy to see their area go down the tubes rather than have a few weeds cut in case Waterford might be take a tourist from Kilkenny, or something, God knows!

Whatever about Kilkenny being dirt poor, which I'm not sure I believe; as was pointed out, the south Kilkenny area generates a lot of cash that they *don't* spend there. This cash is spent elsewhere. South Kilkenny is simply not a priority, and it is never going to be. Even if Kilkenny Co. Co. suddenly get rich, they're still going to spend a disproportionate amount of cash around Kilkenny city than they will in south Kilkenny.

The cooperating councils idea is a joke. The Deerlands project was a great reminder of how Kilkenny doesn't give a damn about Waterford's development plan. And it'll be a cold day in hell when they build a park or civic amenity in the Ferrybank area!

If and when Waterford gets the extension the area will be sorted out and there'll be no more complaining or whining about anything (or at least not any more than the other wards). Waterford needs to look after its approach from the N9 which is a disgrace and makes the city look like a joke. The whole place could do with a bit of investment, which it ain't going to get unless Waterford start running it. It would be to everyone's benefit, except maybe the bean counters up in Kilkenny city -- as if the money should be spent up there anyway.

This is as much an argument for boundary extensions as it is an argument for abolishing councils. The city should spread out naturally, without any of this parochial bull****.

fricatus

mfitzy wrote:

But by the tone of that article you would think it was still 50 units. Significantly bigger than the City Square,I sincerely doubt that.

It can still be 16 units and bigger than City Square and Lisduggan combined. Remember that there's not only the anchor tenant, but also a "motor sales outlet" and a "retail warehouse unit for the sale of bulky goods". Those three units alone will make up the majority of the floor space.

Any idea who the anchor tenant is going to be? For balance, it should be Dunnes. They've only two quite small units in the city centre, whereas Tesco are likely to have four supermarkets in east Waterford by the time this place is open.

I was in Dunnes on Childers Road in Limerick recently, which would seem to be a good model for Abbeylands.

Maharet

The centre has a load of conditions (51) on it this time. For example it's not allowed have any pubs or take aways and the retail has to be retail, no banks, building societies, post offices, hairdressers or repair shops. Also the car sales centre can only sell new cars, can't be a garage. According to the sept 1st News & Star, the first building will have two anchor stores and 20 shop units. It'll also have a medical centre, food court, health & beauty court (whatever the hell that is...), warehousing and office space. The second one will have the car sales outlet, creche, more offices and 12 aparments. They have parking too, for just over a thousand cars.

It sounds quite large for a local centre from all that....It's 2.72 hectares (6.74 acres or 27,200 sq metres) altogether.

fricatus

Where exactly is the site for the shopping centre, by the way?