Piston Ring Question

armchairninja

Hi Guys,
Just wondering if any of you would know where a lad could get his hands on an engine schematic or similr diagram that shows how exactly the piston rings are taken out of a Mitsubishi Lancer( '97, 1.3)

It for a friend who wants to change his piston rings, hes not a qualified mechanic, but is extremely competent and wants to change them himself.

An online link to a .pdf or something would be great, the catch is he doesnt want to pay for the imformation.

Thanks in advance

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

Hi Guys,
Just wondering if any of you would know where a lad could get his hands on an engine schematic or similr diagram that shows how exactly the piston rings are taken out of a Mitsubishi Lancer( '97, 1.3)

It for a friend who wants to change his piston rings, hes not a qualified mechanic, but is extremely competent and wants to change them himself.

An online link to a .pdf or something would be great, the catch is he doesnt want to pay for the imformation.

Thanks in advance

Shouldn't be a problem if he has an idea what he is doing and approaches the job methodically. If he hasn't done this before now, I'd advise him to leave it to someone else! Only because if he takes the cylinder head off (he might not have if he can drop the pistons down the bottom the engine after removing the sump), he'll have to time the engine again after he refits the cylinder head and if he gets the timing wrong, it'll cost him more money to fix it and he'll end up having to get someone in to clean up the mess.

I've the AutoData Technical manual which would have torque settings and sequences if he needs this info, just drop me a pm.. Just tell him to be careful. If he has a mate who is a mechanic who does nixers, he could ask him to let him help him with a nixer job like this so at least he could get some experience of how to do it. When I was doing my apprenticeship, loads of practice was needed to get to the stage where you could do this job.

armchairninja

Thanks, I know its a big job but he has done several engine transplants an gearbox transplants on different cars and other numerous jobs,so the fact that I suggested,like you, to get a mechanic to do it fell on deaf ears

However he does no somebody who can retime the engine, but i still mite drop you a PM if he needs the settings for it. Thanks for the offer.

You were saying about the pistons coming out from the bottom of the block once the sump was off, would that make the job easier? or would it be making a mountain out of a mole hill? and what exactly would be involved in dropping them out from the bottom?

Thanks

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

Thanks, I know its a big job but he has preformed several engine transplants an gearbox transplants on different cars and other numerous jobs,so the fact that I suggested,like you, to get a mechanic to do it fell on deaf ears

However he does no somebody who can retime the engine, but i still mite drop you a PM if he needs the settings for it. Thanks for the offer.

You were saying about the pistons coming out from the bottom of the block once the sump was off, would that make the job easier? or would it be making a mountain out of a mole hill? and what exactly would be involved in dropping them out from the bottom?

Thanks

Yeah, if he can work from the bottom of the engine, he doesn't have to go near the timing or removing and torquing down the cylinder head again, I was able to do this on a Toyota Corolla engine when I had to do the same job and it made everything much handier. If he has to get the engine cylinder sleeves rebored though the whole thing will have to come out. All he has to do is take care torquing bolts and doing his timing. My advice to him is to get someone to turn the engine over by hand before he starts it and check that the valves and pistons are not coming into contact inside the engine. Sure no real harm if he does mess it up and has to do it again, its all part of the learning experience when your into this stuff!

armchairninja

Cheers Darragh,
Ill tell him this and if he has anymore questions(more than likely will) ill get back to you

Thanks very much

JHMEG

Can I ask why he wants to change the piston rings?

armchairninja

JHMEG wrote:

Can I ask why he wants to change the piston rings?

You can indeed, He reckons their fu(ked!,
The car he has was crashed around this time last year, it had extensive front end damage, it needed a new bonnet, front panel, bumper bar, bumper, head lights, indicators, drivers door and 2 new wings.
But due to finances it was left sitting up for a while and he only recently got it back on the road with all the repairs done and a full respray.
But since getting it back on the road, it has been a little bit sluggish compared to what it used to be, after consulting with a mechanic, he found a number of possibilities, but after trying all the remedies suggested for the possibilities, he was left with it being the piston rings causing the problems.
And although I would know enough about engines to get by, i dont know enough to contradict him, so i said id try and help him getting information on the problem.

Anan1

I'm assuming from what you've said that the car has low compression in one or more cylinders. Bear in mind that there may be bore wear present, or that a broken or damaged ring may have damaged the bores. If this is the case then he'll have to do a rebore, meaning that the head will have to come off. I don't know whether it'd be possible to inspect the cylinder walls with the head still on. Even if so, I can't see it as being easy, though. Anyone?

JHMEG

Would 2nd Anan1.

Has a compression test been done, and what did it show?

armchairninja

Nope, no compression test done as of yet, as i said, i would know enough to get by when it comes to engines, but my friend knows this, so the idea of a compression test being proposed by me would be laughed at, but i'll say it anyway, tbh, hadnt really thought of compression until it was said earlier.

But the car definitely is a lot more sluggish, when he got it first it would throw you into your seat when he put the foot down, but since getting it back it doesnt really feel the same at all, granted its still quick for a 1.3 but it definitely was quicker

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

Nope, no compression test done as of yet, as i said, i would know enough to get by when it comes to engines, but my friend knows this, so the idea of a compression test being proposed by me would be laughed at, but i'll say it anyway, tbh, hadnt really thought of compression until it was said earlier.

But the car definitely is a lot more sluggish, when he got it first it would throw you into your seat when he put the foot down, but since getting it back it doesnt really feel the same at all, granted its still quick for a 1.3 but it definitely was quicker

TBH, this sounds more to me like a clutch wear problem OR a head gasket integrity problem than compression rings. THere are 3 things he should do here before going near piston rings.

(1) A dry compression test (if pressure is low on compression, possible compression ring problem.

(2) A Wet compression test (put a small quantity of engine oil into each cylinder via spark plug holes, just enough to seal around the piston rings, if compression improves, definitely problem with compression rings OR ALSO, cylinder walls).

(3) An emissions test can identify excess oil consumption (which happens when piston rings are worn), if data returned for HC is in excess of about 400 PPM (parts per million). You could get this result but it could be caused by a different problem, for example incorrectly gapped spark plugs or a hundred other probs.

I'd be sure to eliminate a clutch problem and a head gasket problem before going near piston rings. If there is a lot of pressure in the top water hose coming out of the radiator, this could point to a leak in engine combustion gas pressure into the cooling system and this would cause the car to be performing under expectations. If you take off the oil filler cap and notice this white/yellow scum inside the cap, another tell tale sign of a head gasket problem, also bubbles of air in the radiator expansion bottle.

armchairninja

Its definitely not the clutch, there was a new clutch kit put in it only recently.
And after getting it back on the road it was send into a mechanic to have a new timing belt fitted and a frost plug fitted, he also got the mechanic to do a full check on the car, but we are rather sceptical of this as it took him 3 weeks to do the frost plug and timing belt.
Also the mechanic said that the water pump was a bit stiff from lying up and that the grinding noise in it would drive out of it, the grinding noise turned out to be a colapsed bearing in the water pump!
This same mechanic also said that the head gasket didnt need changing, so its very possible that it does need changing, however there is no scum around the oil cap when last checked, but that was a while ago so that mite have changed.

What would be a handy way to carry out a simple compression test, without spending a lot of money?

IrishRover

... and yet you are relying on this same mechanic's diagnosis of piston rings!

You can buy a cylinder compression tester in Halfords. Gunsons is a common brand name.

armchairninja

IrishRover wrote:

... and yet you are relying on this same mechanic's diagnosis of piston rings!

God No!, went to a different mechanic for this one, the reason we used the other, em, "mechanic", was because the one he normally used was up to his eyes and we went to this other mechanic because he needed the car on the road quick because of insurance co. problems on the car he was driving while trying to fix it

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

Its definitely not the clutch, there was a new clutch kit put in it only recently.
And after getting it back on the road it was send into a mechanic to have a new timing belt fitted and a frost plug fitted, he also got the mechanic to do a full check on the car, but we are rather sceptical of this as it took him 3 weeks to do the frost plug and timing belt.
Also the mechanic said that the water pump was a bit stiff from lying up and that the grinding noise in it would drive out of it, the grinding noise turned out to be a colapsed bearing in the water pump!
This same mechanic also said that the head gasket didnt need changing, so its very possible that it does need changing, however there is no scum around the oil cap when last checked, but that was a while ago so that mite have changed.

What would be a handy way to carry out a simple compression test, without spending a lot of money?

I'm going to make a quick suggestion here only because you've mentioned that the water pump bearings collapsed and I've seen this happen on an Opel Astra recently when the water pump bearings collapsed...

OK, background info: the back of your timing belt is used to rotate the pulley on the water pump. In the case I had with the Opel Astra, the fact that the bearings in the water pump collasped caused the timing belt to become untensioned and basically loose. When this happened, it starting jumping the teeth on the crankshaft pulley and then the timing was completely lost. In the above case, the outcome was that because of the length of the valve stems and the travel of the valves and also the piston, both came into contact and all 16 engine valves had to be replaced, along with a new head gasket set, clyinder head bolts, head skimmed, etc.

What could have happened in your mates car if the water pump collapsed is that the timing could have been lost and a valve(s) could be bent slightly and not sealing the combustion gas in the combustion chamber. This would cause the engine to underperform. Alternatively the timing could just be off, as the timing belt could have skipped a tooth when the water pump bearings collapsed, as compressed gas that should be forcing the piston down is leaking out an opening somewhere, (bent valve not sealing correctly).

You mentioned that the old water pump was left in place after the timing belt was changed. The mechanic said it was just noisy from lying up and the noise would run out, which is bull****. A noisy water pump means the bearings are worn and the pump needs to be replaced. As per your last mail, I don't know if the water pump was replaced yet or not or when it was replaced, or who replaced it. If one mechanic replaced the timing belt and left a collapsing water pump on the engine with the timing slightly off, and then another mechanic comes along and puts his own timing marks on the engine and refits the new water pump and puts the timing back in place, its easy to see how the engine timing could now be incorrect. Tell your mate to get a strobe timing lamp from somewhere (should be cheap anough at Halfords or a motor factor), and check the engine timing at idle and also for ignition timing advancement at fast idle (3,000 RPM). Basically, the faster the RPM, the sooner the spark should occur (or advance) at number of degrees before top dead centre.

I should have data for this in Autodata book if he's stuck...

armchairninja

not sure if it makes a difference now, but when the water pump was replaced, because of the location of 1 of the bolts, the timing belt had to be removed to allow it to go back on properly, we got the timing set by a relative who was up from down country, unfortunatley hes gone now, and wont be back up anytime soon, hence the reason this thread started.

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

not sure if it makes a difference now, but when the water pump was replaced, because of the location of 1 of the bolts, the timing belt had to be removed to allow it to go back on properly, we got the timing set by a relative who was up from down country, unfortunatley hes gone now, and wont be back up anytime soon, hence the reason this thread started.

Well, if he can check the ignition timing to see if its where it should be, that's a start. The ignition timing would obviously need to have been done again after the water pump was replaced. My gut feeling tells me this is where the problem is! The piston rings would have to be fairly badly worn before you would notice it in the cars performance and you would also be having fairly severe smoke emission problems at this stage, particularly when the engine was cold. Are you having smoke emission problems with the car???

armchairninja

yea, actually now that you mention it (i probably should have mentioned it earlier:o ), if he starts the car from cold or near cold, and gives it some throttle, big clouds of thick blue/black smoke come out of it, and if your driving behind it theres a bad smell similar to that of a clutch going, which he reckons is the rings

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

yea, actually now that you mention it (i probably should have mentioned it earlier:o ), if he starts the car from cold or near cold, and gives it some throttle, big clouds of thick blue/black smoke come out of it, and if your driving behind it theres a bad smell similar to that of a clutch going, which he reckons is the rings

Well this being the case, it could indeed be piston rings, in fact it most likely is, unless the oil is leaking down from the valve stem oil seals if they are worn. Going by what you said about blue/black smoke, I'd say it needs new piston rings and the cylinder sleeves would need to be checked and maybe rebored. Just as a by the way, if he couldn't do the ignition timing on the engine, I'd proceed very carefully with going at piston rings, especically if the cylinder head has to come off...

JHMEG

Just to add: changing a timing belt is a fairly simple procedure, just time consuming. As long as everything is lined up the way its supposed to be, everything should be ok.

If your mate doesn't feel up to doing a belt, I'd leave the piston rings to a pro. Not a trivial job by any means.

The fact that the car is burning oil (the smoke) could still mean a problem with head warpage, head gasket or even something seriously wrong with the block.

A compression test is the best place to start.

Assuming the timing belt etc is ok, ignition timing can be set fairly closely by hand. Having the service check connector bridged (to stop the ECU fiddling with engine parameters), and the engine running at normal temp (cooling fan has come on at least once) you can just rotate a slightly loosened distributor until the engine seems to be running at its best. It'll usually be somewhere in the middle. Confirm with a timing light when you get one, but if you're careful you'll pretty much get it spot on. {I think the lower end mistubishi engines probably have distributors, tho I know the MIVEC ones don't and timing can't be set in this way as a result}

AMurphy

While a compression and leakdown test would be the first order of business, as well as checking other possibilities for sluggishness.
Haynes Manuals are good for engine rebuilds, it's about the only thing they ARE good for,which is a pity, cause most problems encontered DO NOT require an engine rebuild.

armchairninja

Well, the problem was well and truly resolved yesterday afternoon, the pulley that the timing belt goes around on the end of the crank sheared off, so we got the car back to his house and took the engine out, stripped it and found some interesting results.
We took off the rocker cover and the rockers were covered in a thick black oily sludge(almost like clay and oil), this is also where the smell was eminating from, but yet again this was one of the things that the "mechanic" was told to check on.
Thing is the engine was kept well by my mate, possibly that the previous owner didnt, and after it lying up so long he put in some engine flush, which shud have broken down the sludge?
Also the liners of the pistons where perfect, not a mark on them, pistons have yet to be checked, but the tops of them had hit valves, because when the pulley broke and the timing went he was in the middle of the road, so he had to key it to the side of the road....basically the engine is fooked!

The engine looked kind of like this one below, but it was way worse( actuall pics may possibly follow)



so bad that a screwdriver had to be used to dig out the head bolts in places

Anyway, thanks for all the help

AMurphy

Dunno!. I have never seen an engine covered in such sludge, yet. So no idea what the cause or the solution may be.

JHMEG

Well that solves that problem then. It'd prob be easier/cheaper to get an engine from a breaker? I wouldn't imagine there's any demand for the 1.3, so they should be cheap.

armchairninja

Yep, he has diceided that a new engine is the best idea, problem is that, we are in kildare and the engines hes found for a lancer are in cork and belfast, and there arnt any in the usual haunts in this area

If anyone can point me in the direction of somewhere i mite find one, that would be great, also hes considering changing it to a higher capacity engine or possibly a MIVEC while he has the engine out

Cheers

Darragh29

armchairninja wrote:

Yep, he has diceided that a new engine is the best idea, problem is that, we are in kildare and the engines hes found for a lancer are in cork and belfast, and there arnt any in the usual haunts in this area

If anyone can point me in the direction of somewhere i mite find one, that would be great, also hes considering changing it to a higher capacity engine or possibly a MIVEC while he has the engine out

Cheers

Ye have a breakers yard in Enfield there oif it is any use. Try IVI for an engine up near the Red Cow, also, there are two breakers yards just at the Red Cow roundabout, I'd be very surprised if ye couldn't get one there. You'd be wasting your time trying to do anything with that engine...

JHMEG

There's a yard out by Kilcock. (01) 6285671. Good selection of stuff, tho I wouldn't normally be looking at mitsubishi stuff, so I can't comment on that.

mivec 4G92 will set you back a few quid incl ecu. And they're like hen's teeth. Plenty of vanilla 1.6's knocking around tho.

armchairninja

Cheers Darragh,
You wouldnt have numbers for them breakers yards?, only if ye have them to hand, theres no need to go trawling thru the golden pages for them, just thought you mite have them handy considering your in the game

Thanks too to JHMEG