Weapons Amnesty Web Site

cushtac

Training from the manufacturer comes as part of the package. The training covers effective use of the baton, international best practice & if this is followed the company will provide an expert witness for the defence should an officer be brought to court over it's use.

You'd have to ask a Garda how often they practice this stuff.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Can be daily, depending on what station you're assigned to...

Are you talking about formal training or when on the beat

Dvs

Babble wrote:

So who's initiative is this??

Minister for Justice Michael McDowell


Dvs.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

Are you talking about formal training or when on the beat

On the beat. Nothing like on-the-job training... :rolleyes:
Seriously, it's a stick. Apart from "don't hit them in the head because this isn't hollywood", what other training is going to be useful for police who aren't meant to use these things except in extremis anyway?

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

On the beat. Nothing like on-the-job training... :rolleyes:
Seriously, it's a stick. Apart from "don't hit them in the head because this isn't hollywood", what other training is going to be useful for police who aren't meant to use these things except in extremis anyway?

ah come on, you know there is much more to it than that. If someone said that shooting was just poitning a gun and pulling a trigger you'd laugh at them Poeple have dedicated many hours of their lives to training effectively with weapons like batons.

Its not just belt him til he goes down.

I'd like to know that if a garda did have to use one he wouldn't split a knee cap, rupture a kidney, collapse a wind pipe etc.

Sparks

No denying that there can be more training than that Veg, but I don't foresee escrima becoming a part of the training in templemore anytime soon. I'm not sure it'd be a good idea either. The baton's meant to be an article of last resort. For one-on-one confrontations, the Gardai's best weapon remains being the Gardai. It won't stop someone determined to harm them, obviously, but it's their best weapon because it means the least work for them and the least risk to them (no fight = no risk).

civdef

Seriously, it's a stick. Apart from "don't hit them in the head because this isn't hollywood", what other training is going to be useful for police who aren't meant to use these things except in extremis anyway?

The standard British police baton course takes two full days of training (out of 5 days spent on defensive tactics). The baton moodule includes a manual to learn from, charts to memorise and practical and written exams.

More info: http://www.batons.com/mptc/

Clare gunner

cushtac wrote:

Firstly, the things are not 'now' illegal - the Act has been in force for fifteen years. Secondly, I see nothing perculiar in a police force arming itself (as it is legally entitled to do) with the necessary weapons in order to keep the peace.

Well,according to the criminal justice act of 2006 and the weapons amnesty they now are.

Don't know where you're getting that from. Procurement of a new baton is going ahead & training of more instuctors is underway. The average Garda is well capable of using it, depsite your obvious low opinion of them.

Yes Cushtac I have a VERY LOW opinion of them!!!Especially the plain clothes and ERU.IMO goons who should never be let near a firearm and like to throw their weight around with their little tin badges to drink all nite in the pubs.So if that is the "elite" God alone knows what the common or garden variety is like.And the Average Gardai I have talked to are Limerick men who have been 15 plus years on the beat.

Edit just after having a look on the chart above.They have two places I was taught one should never hit with a Monadock[which BTW is a side handled baton manufacturer.Which requires even MORE training to use properly] One isthe groin,which should be in the red area,and upper abdomnen due to the chance of diaphram rupture.
Soo considering the actions of the Gardai in the May day riots and the few who got hit on the heads with batons.What is the betting somone will be sueing soon for a dead relative who got hit with an ASP or side handled baton.
Sparks,
That quaint idea of unarmed Gardai being at low risk/no risk wentout with 8 track players.There are folks down here in Moyross and Limerick just waiting to notch up a Garda "Hit".Unarmed or armed doesnt matter .Just hasnt been done because it puts a strain on the drug dealing.But the status for somone who does will be immense.
The whole force has to be stripped down,the dross removed,it modified to at least late 20th centuary standards,and made accountable to the Irish public.This totally autonomous, answerable to nobody,but themselves is NOT what a police force is supposed to be.

civdef

and like to throw their weight around with their little tin badges

Didn't know they had badges..

cushtac

Clare gunner wrote:

Well, according to the criminal justice act of 2006 and the weapons amnesty they now are.

Nope, batons aren't mentioned anywhere in the 2006 Act and the weapons amnesty isn't legislation so it doesn't count. The Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 is the legislation which deals with such things.

Clare gunner wrote:

Yes Cushtac I have a VERY LOW opinion of them!!!Especially the plain clothes and ERU.IMO goons who should never be let near a firearm and like to throw their weight around with their little tin badges to drink all nite in the pubs.So if that is the "elite" God alone knows what the common or garden variety is like.And the Average Gardai I have talked to are Limerick men who have been 15 plus years on the beat.

Grand, we've established you've a big chip on you're shoulder for some reason.

Clare gunner wrote:

Edit just after having a look on the chart above.They have two places I was taught one should never hit with a Monadock[which BTW is a side handled baton manufacturer.Which requires even MORE training to use properly]

Mondanock makes many batons, the side-handled PR-24 is but one of them. The amount of training required for them isn't an issue, since the Gardaí aren't getting them.

Clare gunner wrote:

Soo considering the actions of the Gardai in the May day riots and the few who got hit on the heads with batons. What is the betting somone will be sueing soon for a dead relative who got hit with an ASP or side handled baton.

Difficult to say really. Gardaí are people, some will loose the rag & clock someone over the head. It's not a trait confined just to the Gardaí either, look at the Rodney King incident.

Clare gunner

Grand, we've established you've a big chip on you're shoulder for some reason.

Amazing no one else has,considering the way they trample over peoples rights at will in Ireland when it suits them.Maybe you would have too,if a fat Bo"££ix who wanted a parking space that you are reversing into pulls in in his private car and then flashes his tatty Garda ID with little tin Garda shield
and states he would charge you for dangerous driving if you wanted to make an issue of it.Whilst letting his hand rest casually on his S&W in a badly placed hip holster.If that isnt an abuse of power I dont know what is.:mad:

Mondanock makes many batons, the side-handled PR-24 is but one of them. The amount of training required for them isn't an issue, since the Gardaí aren't getting them.

You sure???ASFIK there was one stuck on clips on a Garda shield at the Love Ulster riot.Was to be seen clearly in one of the TV clips or photos in the press?Well, if it takes so long to train with the PR 24.How long does it take with the ASP,and especially to learn the correct striking points??Plus how often do you have to do a refresher??

Difficult to say really. Gardaí are people, some will loose the rag & clock someone over the head. It's not a trait confined just to the Gardaí either, look at the Rodney King incident.

Ture in a way,but what did really happen in the Rodney King affair??After being chased,maced,and total aggro,the only thing left was to baton King.Part of the tape that is conviently never referred to.Plus LAPD has the worst reputation in the US for use of excessive force and racial discrimination.At least there was a enquiry and trial,where the full video was shown which aquitted the officers.But because King was a "brother" and the brothers had had enough of "da man's" antics.LA burned.
Well, if you are going to argue that Gardai are people tha can lose the rag,is it then a good idea to arm those kind of people or have them in a police force at all ,where the first thing is disipline and knowing how to control ones emotions or being trained to do so??? As a police officer you are the first person the public will look to as a figure of authorthiy and control.Not a corrupt figure of fun,as seems to be here these days.

cushtac

Clare gunner wrote:

You sure???

Positive, I know Ireland's Mondanock agent very well and he says the Gardaí didn't want them.

Clare gunner wrote:

Ture in a way,but what did really happen in the Rodney King affair??After being chased,maced,and total aggro,the only thing left was to baton King.Plus LAPD has the worst reputation in the US for use of excessive force and racial discrimination.

I know all that, but my point still stands. They still lost the rag & battered him. There's plenty more examples of this all over the world, the potential for excessive violence isn't endemic of the Gardaí.

Clare gunner wrote:

At least there was a enquiry and trial,where the full video was shown which aquitted the officers.

There were six Gardaí charged and brought to court over May Day, one was convicted and the rest cleared. There's also internal disciplnary action still on-going.

Clare gunner wrote:

Well, if you are going to argue that Gardai are people tha can lose the rag,is it then a good idea to arm those kind of people or have them in a police force at all ,where the first thing is disipline and knowing how to control ones emotions or being trained to do so???

The vast majority of Gardaí, like the vast majority of decent police all over the world, can and do exercise restraint. If this wasn't the case there'd be Gardaí up on charges for assault left, right & centre.

Clare gunner wrote:

As a police officer you are the first person the public will look to as a figure of authorthiy and control.Not a corrupt figure of fun,as seems to be here these days

Earlier this year three Gardaí risked their lives by putting their car in front of a stolen bus which had been ploughing through traffic, hardly the acts of corrupt figures of fun.

I'm gonna leave it at that. There's no point in arguing with you over something which you've made your mind up on already.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=cushtac]Positive, I know Ireland's Mondanock agent very well and he says the Gardaí didn't want them.

Ok fair enough.

I know all that, but my point still stands. They still lost the rag & battered him. There's plenty more examples of this all over the world, the potential for excessive violence isn't endemic of the Gardaí.

No,I am not saying the Gardai are the only ones,but it seems to be more swept under the carpet here than anywhere else,bar some south American countries I have been in.At least there they make no bones about being corrupt sods.

There were six Gardaí charged and brought to court over May Day, one was convicted and the rest cleared. There's also internal disciplnary action still on-going.

Like Abbylara,the Mac Bearty affair in Donegal,etc.Big inquiry,no one charged or convicted.Sweep under carpet.Reminds me of the Catholic church here in times past.Move the bad egg on to another district.Thirty years later it comes out in the wash what was really going on.

The vast majority of Gardaí, like the vast majority of decent police all over the world, can and do exercise restraint. If this wasn't the case there'd be Gardaí up on charges for assault left, right & centre.

These are only the ones we hear about that make publicity here.How about the countless non reported cases,that never were reported to ther Garda complaints board.Which was Gardai investigating Gardai.Hopefully that will change with the police ombudsman.

Earlier this year three Gardaí risked their lives by putting their car in front of a stolen bus which had been ploughing through traffic, hardly the acts of corrupt figures of fun.

Well, I would consider that as part of the job description of a LEO.Going into harms way to uphold the law and all that????

I'm gonna leave it at that. There's no point in arguing with you over something which you've made your mind up on already.

[/QUOTE]

You say tamato, I say tomato as the old song goes.:)

Rovi

From the RTE News website-

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Weapons amnesty to end tonight[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]

31 October 2006 07:26

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Almost 350 weapons have been handed in to gardaí as part of the weapons amnesty which ends at midnight tonight.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The guns, knives and other assorted weapons are being tested by gardaí to see if they have been used in criminal activity.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once the amnesty ends, six new offences covering firearms will be introduced.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]People convicted of these offences will be given a mandatory prison sentence of up to ten years.[/FONT]

...and from unison.ie-

New sentences for gun offences come into force tonight

07:39 Tuesday October 31st 2006

Legislation introducing new mandatory minimum sentences for firearms possession is due to come into force at midnight tonight. Under the new laws, new minimum sentences of between five and 10 years are being introduced for a range of firearm offences.

Meanwhile, the weapons amnesty set up ahead of the introduction of the new laws is also due to expire at midnight tonight.

Reports this morning say almost 350 weapons have been handed in since the scheme began on September 1st, including 73 shotguns and 44 pistols, revolvers and handguns.

'Almost' 350 weapons?
That's about as impressive as we all suspected.

Babble

Sooo the total haul for the whole country was only 350 doodads? How long did this run for??

Rovi

Babble wrote:

Sooo the total haul for the whole country was only 350 doodads? How long did this run for??

Two months, September and October.

.243

this amnesty is a complete load of bull,its election season and their all clutching at straws for votes,id have a very good favoured bet that even paddy power wouldnt take that any criminal had a change of heart to hand in a cocktail stick out of his hoard of goodies and that what was handed in was the good citizen who had a "weapon" which was passed down or passed on to him or her that more than likley was gathering dust in the attic or in the back of the cupboard,so the goverment comes up with a great idea to get this "off the streets"when it was more than likley never seen the light of day.Scare the public into thinking they will go to jail if they dont produce the goods,a big hoo haa,some bits and boobs collected,the goverment looks great and the criminals sit back and laugh and the weapons that shoud be collected are still there for us to get hit in the crossfire.well done mr mc dowell youll be ok with your garda on your front gate dont worry about us,we'll struggle on with the thug hold us at gunpoint over a €5 note !!!

Clare gunner

Back to busisness as normal then.Criminals continue your import of illegal weapons,gurriers continue stabbing and slashing with £1 shop stanley knives and kitchen knives.Law abideing citizens,tremble at the "tough new laws" if you have forgotten so much as that el cheapo flick knife in the bottom of your junk drawer,that you bought 20 plus years ago on that school weekend trip to France.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sparks

Law abideing citizens,tremble at the "tough new laws" if you have forgotten so much as that el cheapo flick knife in the bottom of your junk drawer,that you bought 20 plus years ago on that school weekend trip to France.

It's not illegal to have a flick knife in your drawer.

Take it with you into a public place, mind, and that's been a different story since 1990...

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

It's not illegal to have a flick knife in your drawer.

From the amnesty website FAQ page (my emphasis)-

It is illegal to manufacture, sell or possess a range of offensive weapons such as a flick-knife, a knuckleduster, a swordstick or dagger cane, a sword umbrella, a machete, a belt buckle knife, a push dagger, a hollow kubotan (a cylinder with sharp spikes), a shuriken (death star), a balisong (butterfly knife), a telescopic truncheon, a blowpipe or blow gun, a kusari gama (a sickle on a chain), a kyoketsu shoge (a hooked knife on a chain), a kusari (a hard weight on a chain), a sap glove (a metal lined glove), or any weapon from which one or more sharp spikes protrude.

Clare gunner

Think they mean possesion in an open place.
Even the push knife thing is debatable as there are deer skinner /gutters made in a push knife config freely available still here.Ditto for the Machete,turnip knife,/beet topper anyone??
Also would add on some of that stuff being handed in,like a sword stick,they are actually in some cases very valueable.Wonder why compensation was never discussed??

Sparks

Rovi, unless they changed all the laws when I wasn't looking, it's perfectly legal to own a flick knife; and unless they changed the 1990 Act and I missed it, it's perfectly legal to have one in a desk drawer - you just can't have one in a public place.

Rovi

On Joe Duffy's show at the moment, Joe is encouraging some guy to go look for his pistol back off the Guards! :eek:

Apparently, this guy made a last minute decision yesterday to dig his Granny's pistol out of the attic and hand it in. It was some sort of pearl handled miniature pistol, and she had it from 1916 and/or the Civil War.
He rang Joe to talk about the lack of identification he had to produce and mentioned that the Garda he gave it to told him it would be going for analysis and destruction.
A couple of antique specialists have been on saying that if the provenance is good, the pistol could be worth a six figure sum.
Joe is wondering why the Gardai don't offer people to option of 'de-commissioning' this sort of thing, and is puzzled that this wasn't made available to people with 'historical artifacts'.

He has sent the guy off to the Garda Station to see if he can get it back. :rolleyes:

Sparks

On Joe Duffy's show at the moment, Joe is encouraging some guy to go look for his pistol back off the Guards!

You just can't win with that man...

civdef

In the UK firearms amnesties, part of the deal is that any weapons of historical interest may be passed on to museums rather than destroyed.

Sparks

I don't think that they were set up for that officially here Civ, just that the Gardai could pass on things if they thought they might be of interest.

Mind you, even with the best will in the world, I can't imagine that every Garda gets training in antique firearms appraisal...

civdef

All the weapons are to be sent to the Phoenix Park for analysis. The ballistics fellas up there do know what's what, and last time I was there, they had a fair few guns stored there that really belonged in a museum.

When I worked in a gun shop, an old lady once arranged to drop in her husband's old gun for disposal. When I saw the small plastic bag she carried it in, I realised it wasn't the old single barrel shotgun I had been expecting, turned out to be a 1903 model DWM manufactured Luger in 7.65 Parabellum. It needed a good clean, but wasn't in terrible shape. Given it's age I guess it had some history. Probably worth a few quid. No idea what happened it, we handed it over to the Gardai.

17HMR

Just looking at the Amnesty faq link in Rivi's post and the definition given there as to what a "firearm" is...

It says:
(g) except where the context otherwise requires, any component part of any article referred to in any of the foregoing paragraphs and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following articles shall be deemed to be such component parts:

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e),

(ii) a silencer designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (e), and

(iii) any object

(I) manufactured for use as a component in connection with the operation of a firearm, and

(II) without which it could not function as originally designed,

Given that all guns (to use the general term) require some method of aiming "to function as originally designed" this seems to suggest that all sights are "component parts" and so are covered in this statement ?

Sparks

You'd have to get a court ruling to make that stick 17, but there is a counter-argument to yours which is that the function of a firearm is to go bang, for which sights are not needed. After all, take the sights off my rifle and it still shoots just fine, I just don't aim it so well.

17HMR

Sparks - Hmmmm I suppose. Perhaps that's why items like "silencers" and night 'scopes are specifically named.

(Though why moderators and night 'scopes are so named I don't know).