Premiership is king

thebaz

After this weeks busy transfer dealings, has English football ever been so strong ?
Look at the strength now of the likes of Portsmouth, West Ham , Spurs .
The bubble was supposed to have burst a few years ago, but I think this is the strongest league I can remember , and looking down to the Championship with Birmingham, Sunderland, Southampton etc -- it puts not only Irish but Scottish club football in the shade , quality wise.

gimmick

An English team will not win the CL, or UEFA Cup this season.

I dont care about any of the signing really. Ballack and Shev dont really count, as that was just Abromovich flexing his muscle. Other than those two, what really big transfers were there? Tevez and Mascherano, but those are riddled with suspicion and controversy already.

English domestic football was always light years ahead of both Ireland and Scotland. IMO, nothing has changed.

~Rebel~

gimmick wrote:

An English team will not win the CL, or UEFA Cup this season.

Bit of an odd statement considering both the Champions League and UEFA Cup finals had English teams in them last year. Obviously its a good bet one wouldn't win simply because theres also Italy Spain and the better teams from France Holland and Germany so by odds its a safeish bet to pick any one of them not to win. Outside of Barcelona and maybe Inter id be happy enough to have Liverpool in a match with any of the remaining and would consider them around the same level but absolutely wouldnt even write off chances against those 2 by a long shot. And as we all know (sadly) Chelsea are a level above Liverpool at the moment. I think the English teams will do very well again this year, after all its a cup, a good string of 5 games after breakin out of the group and you've won the cup.

gimmick wrote:

English domestic football was always light years ahead of both Ireland and Scotland. IMO, nothing has changed.

I think he means that even the Championship is probably better overall then the Scottish League. Not sure about this myself, a lot of dross in both and a few quality teams in both.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

For me, the Premiership died they day it becaeme the Premiership. Now it's all down to the godlen rule: he who has the most gold, wins. Proven with Blackburn, proven with Man United and nowbeing proven with Chelsea. Admittedly, you could say the same in foreign leagues with thelikes of AC Milan in the late 80s/early 90s and Madrid, but it's not about the best team these days, it's the most money to buy the best team.

In 14 years, we've only had four differnet winners iof the Premiership, including Blackburn. Probably only about seven or eight teams have made it into the top three. Compare that to the variety in the last 14 years of the old division one (stats not available - don't have time to look).

Still, way of the world I suppose....

P.

~Rebel~

gimmick wrote:

I dont care about any of the signing really. Ballack and Shev dont really count, as that was just Abromovich flexing his muscle. Other than those two, what really big transfers were there? Tevez and Mascherano, but those are riddled with suspicion and controversy already.

I think players that play abroad automatically gain a status higher then they deserve. Sure we might not think of some of the players in england as superstars but i bet they're every bit as successful in reality as some of the so called "big names" abroad. Bent got 18 premiership goals for god sake! And noone can say the premiership is easier to score in the abroad, just look at the players who have come over and failed to make a big impact dispite being successfull in italy or spain. It seems more that players that can score in england are grand elsewhere, but players that score elsewhere very often dont find it such easy going in the Prem.

What im getting at is im sure foreign supporters are lookin at the odd bit of premiership action thinking "christ that bent guy is unreal, world class!" or owen, or robbie keane, or saha, or van nis or rooney or berbatov and kuyt and bellemy hopefully now as well. They're familier to us where players like Pandiani was exotic and cool but then came (after being very very successfull in Spain with depor) to be, well, not very good..

~Rebel~

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

For me, the Premiership died they day it becaeme the Premiership. Now it's all down to the godlen rule: he who has the most gold, wins. Proven with Blackburn, proven with Man United and nowbeing proven with Chelsea. Admittedly, you could say the same in foreign leagues with thelikes of AC Milan in the late 80s/early 90s and Madrid, but it's not about the best team these days, it's the most money to buy the best team.

Take out Chelsea and this would be the most competitive premiership ever. Some fantastic teams that will themselves be expecting to give arsenal and manu and liverpool a serious run for their money in every single game. Spurs, Portsmouth, West Ham, Villa, Bolton, Newcastle, blackburn, Boro (if they're in the mood) are all more then good enough to beat anyone in the league and most of the rest of the teams have gotten much stronger too, Man City have a few fantatic players always capable of a bit of magic, as do reading etc

I could see there being an awful lot of very exciting competitive games this season. TBH Im really excited about this years league!

astrofool

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

For me, the Premiership died they day it becaeme the Premiership. Now it's all down to the godlen rule: he who has the most gold, wins. Proven with Blackburn, proven with Man United and nowbeing proven with Chelsea. Admittedly, you could say the same in foreign leagues with thelikes of AC Milan in the late 80s/early 90s and Madrid, but it's not about the best team these days, it's the most money to buy the best team.

In 14 years, we've only had four differnet winners iof the Premiership, including Blackburn. Probably only about seven or eight teams have made it into the top three. Compare that to the variety in the last 14 years of the old division one (stats not available - don't have time to look).

Still, way of the world I suppose....

P.

Ah yes, the vast diifference of the previous fourteen years where a hugely different FIVE teams won the league. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_champions

~Rebel~

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

In 14 years, we've only had four differnet winners iof the Premiership, including Blackburn. Probably only about seven or eight teams have made it into the top three. Compare that to the variety in the last 14 years of the old division one (stats not available - don't have time to look).

Still, way of the world I suppose....

P.

If we look at the other leagues, like italy in the last 15years have only had 5 winners, and the 5th only because Inter were given it last year, while Roma and Lazio each won it once. Would be class if there was loads of competition where anyone could win it, but i guess its just the way of the world these days..

johnos

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

For me, the Premiership died they day it becaeme the Premiership. Now it's all down to the godlen rule: he who has the most gold, wins. Proven with Blackburn, proven with Man United and nowbeing proven with Chelsea. Admittedly, you could say the same in foreign leagues with thelikes of AC Milan in the late 80s/early 90s and Madrid, but it's not about the best team these days, it's the most money to buy the best team.

In 14 years, we've only had four differnet winners iof the Premiership, including Blackburn. Probably only about seven or eight teams have made it into the top three. Compare that to the variety in the last 14 years of the old division one (stats not available - don't have time to look).

Still, way of the world I suppose....

P.

Great post. The Premiership and Sky circus has turned the sport into a global entertainment and celebrity business. Fans now are treated as consumers, who might as well be buying Britney Spears songs, and players are little more than items on plc balance sheets. Nirvana, I suppose, if you're an accountant.
But, in my book, it doesn't make sense to support a football club that has a bigger following in China. That's why, tonight, I'm going to watch Bohs, even though our season is for all intents and purposes over. We might even have some Chinese people living in Dublin or Drogheda coming along.
It's high time football got back to its roots. You won't find many sports pundits agreeing with that, unfortunately, because most of them are party to this massive, self-sustaining wheeze. They make a career out of feeding the hype, and looking forward to their next junket to wherever Chelski play (I must be doing something right: I have completely blanked on the name of the Abramovich franchise's ground).
Reclaim the soul of the beautiful game

ziggy

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jimbling

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

For me, the Premiership died they day it becaeme the Premiership. Now it's all down to the godlen rule: he who has the most gold, wins. Proven with Blackburn, proven with Man United and nowbeing proven with Chelsea. Admittedly, you could say the same in foreign leagues with thelikes of AC Milan in the late 80s/early 90s and Madrid, but it's not about the best team these days, it's the most money to buy the best team.

In 14 years, we've only had four differnet winners iof the Premiership, including Blackburn. Probably only about seven or eight teams have made it into the top three. Compare that to the variety in the last 14 years of the old division one (stats not available - don't have time to look).

Still, way of the world I suppose....

P.

what a load of absolute crock.

"its not about the best team these days"

"its about the money to buy the best team"

so its still the best team wins right? but now its money thats paying for it.... instead of what exactly?


I understand the arguments that football has gone downhill in general... to much of a money making racket... etc etc etc etc ... blah blah blah......
But this has absolutely nothing to do with the original post. Either does your post Johnos.
Just becuase ye don't like the current "vibe" in football doesnt mean **** to the strength of one league campared to another.

thebaz

Due the dire standard of Scottish and Irish club football, the fact that Cardiff are possibly heading into the Premiership, and that Celtic are owned by Dermot Desmond and other Irish investors, I predict Celtic , Rangers and a team from Dublin , will be leapfrogged into the Championship or Premiership, by the time the next TV rights are discussed , should be in 3 years time . Just a prediction, Dublin seriously needs a quality football side, the fanbase is here as demonstrayed by attendences at freidnly matches for this poor Irish team . And Celtic and Rangers seam more about secteranian rivalry now , than developing these once great clubs.

Jivin Turkey

ziggy67 wrote:

2 Champions league wins since its inception & a raft of overated players- the World Cup showed that.

The lack of success in Europe is more to do with the English clubs ban and their period of catch-up that they had to go through. You only have to look at their success in the last six or seven years to see that.

As regards over rated players and the WC. Ronaldhinho? Plenty of players from plenty of leagues didn't perform at the WC, a one off tournament last a couple of weeks. That is no indication of the strength or weakness of the league they play in.

johnos

jimbling wrote:

I understand the arguments that football has gone downhill in general... to much of a money making racket... etc etc etc etc ... blah blah blah......
But this has absolutely nothing to do with the original post. Either does your post Johnos.

Fair enough. We're talking about different subjects. But in that case isn't the original post rather pointless? Why post an argument that the standard of football in Premiership is better than that in Ireland? Who's going to differ with that?
Do people on aviation forums write posts to inform us that British Airways is bigger than Aer Lingus, or that the RAF would snuff out the Irish, erm, air force, in a couple of nanoseconds?

johnos

thebaz wrote:

I predict Celtic , Rangers and a team from Dublin , will be leapfrogged into the Championship or Premiership, by the time the next TV rights are discussed , should be in 3 years time .

Newsflash: there already are teams from Dublin.

thebaz

[QUOTE=johnos But in that case isn't the original post rather pointless? Why post an argument that the standard of football in Premiership is better than that in Ireland? [/QUOTE]

I made a general post about quality of Premiership, particularly mid ranking teams such as Portsmouth, Wet Ham , Villa, and how quality had improved, and made a general comparison against the current poor overall quality of Irish (and Scottish) club football, where Championship sides such as Birmingham would now have much stronger squad ...

ziggy

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gustavo

Indiviual players wise it may be very good but the way they play means they will never be the truly dominant force in European football

~Rebel~

johnos wrote:

Newsflash: there already are teams from Dublin.

think he meant that celtic, rangers and one of the teams from dublin (bohs, shells) would maybe join into the championship or premiership in a number of years.

Dempsey

thebaz wrote:

Due the dire standard of Scottish and Irish club football, the fact that Cardiff are possibly heading into the Premiership, and that Celtic are owned by Dermot Desmond and other Irish investors, I predict Celtic , Rangers and a team from Dublin , will be leapfrogged into the Championship or Premiership, by the time the next TV rights are discussed , should be in 3 years time . Just a prediction, Dublin seriously needs a quality football side, the fanbase is here as demonstrayed by attendences at freidnly matches for this poor Irish team . And Celtic and Rangers seam more about secteranian rivalry now , than developing these once great clubs.

Celtic isn't owned by Dermot Desmond its a PLC and Premiership clubs would veto Celtic coming into the EPL because they are afraid of the financial potential they have if they got the same TV revenue and prizemoney, exposure that EPL sides get. If Celtic got into the EPL they'd have to expand the stadium to 80,000 to cope with demand for tickets

Celtic are not Sectarian. Celtic were never pulled for Sectarian Chants, Rangers were

thebaz

~Rebel~ wrote:

think he meant that celtic, rangers and one of the teams from dublin (bohs, shells) would maybe join into the championship or premiership in a number of years.

As Dublin grows, both wealth wise and population wise, it is only a matter of time before Dublin develops a serious professional team , that can challenge the big boys seriously in Europe . Yes Derry and Shels , have done well in Europe recently, buts its relative, why shouldn't Dublin have a team capable of seriously challenging for the CL , it will happen in the next 5 - 7 years, look whats happening with Sunderland investment .

gustavo

Hopefully more than just one so that the league can remain competitive

johnos

thebaz wrote:

As Dublin grows, both wealth wise and population wise, it is only a matter of time before Dublin develops a serious professional team , that can challenge the big boys seriously in Europe . Yes Derry and Shels , have done well in Europe recently, buts its relative, why shouldn't Dublin have a team capable of seriously challenging for the CL , it will happen in the next 5 - 7 years, look whats happening with Sunderland investment .

This is a chicken and egg scenario. Dubliners who love football need to start supporting Dublin clubs for that to happen.
If, on the other hand, you are talking about a fast-buck Dublin United franchise scam, that one is dead in the water.

Attractive Nun

I agree that standards in the Premiership are generally very good at the moment. Obviously, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man United are top sides. Tottenham have a world class squad this season too. Everton and Blackburn have more than decent teams also. Newcastle can attract players like Damien Duff and Obafemi Martins, regulars in the XIs of the English and Italian champions (by default) respectively. West Ham have just signed Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano, the two most sought-after South Americans of the summer in world football. Portsmouth have a solid team, Aston Villa are only improving, Manchester City are a decent side, Middlesbrough just made it to a UEFA Cup final.

It's not as strong as La Liga, but I agree that this season's Premiership should be of very high quality.

Ardent

The Premiership is weak (in European terms at least). Outside the top 4/5, you have a lot of sh*t teams. Chelsea just have to worry about beating their closest rivals with negative, cynical football because they'll steamroll the dross. Subsitute Chelsea with Arsenal circa '2000-'2002 and substitute Arsenal with United circa '93-'99.

ziggy

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~Rebel~

Outside the top 4/5, you have a lot of sh*t teams.

Really just cant agree with this, i would say there are 6 fairly crap teams that will get beaten by the best teams and will only be able to provide an upset, but i think of the remaining 14, on their day maybe 6 more have the players to cause an upset to the very best in the league and the of the remaining 8 I wouldn't be surprised by any of them beating any other of them.

mike65

Ah we'll never agree on this topic, some think that continental footie is better simply cos its further away and sounds exotic. Other rate the Prem cos its what they know (and love). All the leagues are a mix of good bad and indifferent. The Prem is no better or worse in that respect than any of the other big leagues.

Sweeping statements like "An English team will not win the CL, or UEFA Cup this season" can be dismissed out of hand. Statisicaly its proberly true but so what?

While the CL has been quiet at the business end for Prem sides they have now caught up with the rest and I see a period of "English" domination over the next 5-8 years, not winning it every year of course but being in semi finals and finals in more years than not.

The league will actualy have more money in the medium term so I'd expect more talent to be part of the game (and thus fewer chances for young native talent but thats another threads discussion).

Mike.

Bounty Hunter

chelsea are the new Galacticos of World football.
Man utd and the Glaziers are desperate to dethrown them.
Following them are Liverpool and Arsenal, who respectivley won and came 2nd in the CL the past 2 seasons with their inspirational captains Gerrard and Henry.
Spurs almost got a CLspot and will be a major force in the Uefa cup.
West Ham got auefa cupspot and since then dodgily or not signed Teves and Maschereno two of the most wanted players worldwide at once.
Aston Villa have MartinO'Neil and Randy lerner revitalising the club.
Pompey have turned around theirclub since Gaydamak turned up with his illgotten cash.

Im not going to claim the Premiership is King but im going to love watching MOTD this year Schevchenko,Maschereno,Rooney,Henry,Gerrard,Teves,Ballack etc all in one league

IMO its stupid to say that an english team wont win the CL this year cos maybe we dont who will win but but i wouldent be ready to write off teams like Chelsea

gustavo

i still dont think that Chelsea can buy any player they want really , the very very top players wont join them i dont think

vorbis

such as? They seem to have got who they wanted this summer

gustavo

Ok if Chelsea had a bid accepted for Ronaldinho , Eto'o Kaka , Messi i doubt those kind of players would join them

A Dub in Glasgo

The thread should really be titled

'Money is king'

There is no hope that the EPL clubs will allow Celtic or Rangers join the EPL.

The EPL is a good league which can be exciting, but let's not loose our sanity and claim it is the 'Best league in the World' (C) Sky

A Dub in Glasgo

gimmick wrote:

English domestic football was always light years ahead of both Ireland and Scotland.

Light years? That is not true. Football did not begin with the EPL.

vorbis

no club in the world gets every single player they want. This summer the main players i heard them associated with were Ballack, Shevchenko and Ashley Cole. all 3 are similar in stature to the ones you mentioned. They got all three. Pisses me off as I am an Arsenal fan.

As for the topic, the premiership does have more quality than usual in the teams outside the top 4 atm. Portsmouth and West Ham for the Champions League!

gustavo

Still though i cant see young first team player at the very elite of Spanish and Italian clubs wanting to join Chelsea or indeed any English club

kinaldo

For what it's worth...

Since the Premiership began:
EPL (4 winners) / Serie A (5 winners) / La Liga (5 winners)

92/93 - Man U......Milan.....Barcelona
93/94 - Man U......Milan.....Barcelona
94/95 - B'burn......Juve......R. Madrid
95/96 - Man U......Milan.....Atl. Madird
96/97 - Man U......Juve......R. Madrid
97/98 - Arsenal.... Juve......Barcelona
98/99 - Man U......Milan......Barcelona
99/00 - Man U......Lazio......Deportivo
00/01 - Man U......Roma......R. Madrid
01/02 - Arsenal.....Juve......Valencia
02/03 - Man U......Juve.......R.Madrid
03/04 - Arsenal.....Milan......Valencia
04/05 - Chelsea.... void.......Barcelona
05/06 - Chelsea.....Inter......Barcelona

Between 1999 and 2002 both Serie A and La Liga produced four different winners in four succesive seasons.

thebaz

after tonights results in the CL, and the likelihoof of 3 semi finalists, i assume the Premiership is now top league in the world -- given the amount of tv money due , i can see a return of the days in the early eighties , when English club football ruled.

mike65

Alan Hansen had an article in the Times (I think) which painted a senario which sees EPL clubs dominate for the period 2005-2012-ish

Mike.

Fratton Fred

mike65 wrote:

Alan Hansen had an article in the Times (I think) which painted a senario which sees EPL clubs dominate for the period 2005-2012-ish

Mike.

Which would be good, if a team outside of the big four managed to break through and actually compete for a spot in the CL, should be interesting with the extra cash available (most of which will no doubt end up in agent’s pockets)

I am optimistic for next season as the rumours coming out of Fratton Park are that big things are happening, however, these rumours come out this time every season. For us, a lot will depend on us keeping hold of Avram Grant who appears o be a bit of an unsung hero, but the rumours are he is off to join the coaching staff at Chelsea.

Hopefully, away fans will have a roof over their heads next season as well, if the planning permission is approved (It’s been turned down every time over the last 20 years though).

Sajan

I think it's funny that as it seems English clubs are starting to dominate in Europe once more, even the Uefa cup is an example of this with Tottenham doing so well, the fans are starting to let their sides down again. Fair enough you may say that heavy handed tactics by police has been the main reason for the trouble in recent weeks but surely it is no coincidence an English club has been involved in each incident. Granted the Italian teams and their fans have behaved appaulingly but they are a league in serious decline and the fans behaviour may reflect this.

therecklessone

Fratton Fred wrote:

Hopefully, away fans will have a roof over their heads next season as well, if the planning permission is approved (It’s been turned down every time over the last 20 years though).

Ah bollox! I've missed the deluge the last two times we visited you, and was planning on doing the "Parks" away from home next year...:(

Raskolnikov

As of last year, the Premier League has 9 out of 25 of the richest footbal clubs in Europe. here

Thanks to takeovers, improved TV money and success in Europe, the English teams can only have strengthened their position in Europe.

Fratton Fred

therecklessone wrote:

Ah bollox! I've missed the deluge the last two times we visited you, and was planning on doing the "Parks" away from home next year...:(

jaysus, some people are never happy, next you'll be wanting a toilet and somewhere to get a mug of bovril

thebaz

Fratton Fred wrote:

jaysus, some people are never happy, next you'll be wanting a toilet and somewhere to get a mug of bovril

I thought Portsmouth were getting a total stadium revamp -- is the Russian owner a bit tight ?

Fratton Fred

thebaz wrote:

I thought Portsmouth were getting a total stadium revamp -- is the Russian owner a bit tight ?

They've got planning permission to turn the ground 90 degrees and build three new stand, which will take it up to 35,000 but Gaydamak is now looking to build a complete new ground elsewhere in the city so the plans have been shelved. Inthe meantime, he s looking to do as much as he can with the existing ground to improve facilities. (We now have a giant TV screen which is ultramodern for us)

His logic, which is good, is that the main emphasis should be on training facilities as they will attract players more than a new ground. a planning application is in to build a training centre and youth academy about 10 miles from Portmouth which, they say, will be the best in the country.

We've been promised a new ground for the last 20 years so no one is holding their breath!!

Zebra3

I don't think two CL wins in fifteen years equals the best league in Europe.

English league was the best in the late seventies/early eighties when they took six European Cups in a row. Different times then when small clubs (by European standards) like Forest and Villa picked up three EC between them.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote:

I don't think two CL wins in fifteen years equals the best league in Europe.

English league was the best in the late seventies/early eighties when they took six European Cups in a row. Different times then when small clubs (by European standards) like Forest and Villa picked up three EC between them.

you're right, not exactly a convincing return on all the money ploughed in. There always seems to be premier league teams getting into the final stages and falling at the last hurdle, it would be interesting to see if there is a kind of points system or mean finihing position that could show just how good the premier teams perform.

bucks73

They have the coefficient. UEFA use this to calculate the seedings every season for the Champions League and UEFA Cup. It is based on each clubs performance over the previous few (3 I think) seasons.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2006.html

Lex Luthor

There is a very good possibility that there will be an english team in this years CL final (almost 99% as long as Liverpool don't fall to pieces tonight)

That's not bad considering that will be 3yrs in a row they have had a team in the final. Seems like the league is getting stronger again in europe.

therecklessone

Zebra3 wrote:

I don't think two CL wins in fifteen years equals the best league in Europe.

I don't think for one minute that anyone would claim the PL is the best league based on season past, but it certainly looks a lot stronger now and possibly for the coming season.

For what its worth, here's the record of the last 4 in all European club competitions for the last ten years (1995/96 to 2005/06)