The british isles and Ireland.

LordSutch

Yes this is very important, I feel like I am on a mission from God to educate the local peasants

Bard

Apparently (well, according to Kids news TV programme, news2day and British newspaper, The Guardian - as well as various other sources) Folens Publishing are to remove the term "British Isles" from the next edition of their World Atlas for schools, following a complaing from a Geography teacher in Ireland.

Used for centuries as an all-encompassing description of all the islands to the north-west of the European continental shelf, the British Isles has been dismissed as a hangover from the empire. A spokesman for Folens described it as a "potential problem" that would be rectified.

Victor

gurramok wrote:

We object to the term as much if it was named 'Timbuktu Isles' where Timbuktu was the largest of the 2 islands and the second large island was a separate name and independent country and yet proclaimed belonging to Timbuktu!

The irony Tombouctou "Mali is among the poorest countries in the world, with 65% of its land area desert or semidesert and with a highly unequal distribution of income"

Ken77

Words matter if they didnt matter it would ok to use the N word!!!

Kaiser_Sma wrote:

Sweet jesus woman, it's just a word!
Bush is one man, who is accountable for anything he does, the british people are tens of millions spanning many generations, would you condemn them all for a word?
From the canadian perspective they benefited alot from becoming a dominian state (which inevitably paves the way to complete autonomy, where as the original populous of australia came in a large part from convicts, canadas english speaking population came from escaping royalists/loyalists from the united states (as well as british emigrants). They rpobably don't see the same resentment that alot of people here do (i'd say there are exceptions though).
As empires go the British one was the most liberal of it's time, especially after the evangelical revolution in the late 1700's which caused the emancipation and return of the slaves before any major nation had done so. In times of the british empire, imperial states which today have a much lower standard of living relative to britain, were much closer.
The french, germans, japanese, dutch etc. were far less caring.
Most of the major shames of the british empire were caused by mismanagment by certain individuals and an overstretched beuracracy amongst other things. Most people forget that whenever these things were heard about back in england there was moral outcry just as there is today.

But if that doesn't make the slightest bit of differnce to you, then just remeber that the british empire is gone, history. The people who are left alive today and the name of their country is not responsible and aren't even that differnt from you.

Ken77

:mad:
There is a need for a replacement name if you belive in democracy....look at the stats above....if the majority of Irish people want a change there should be a change....the word is offensive to most Irish people...respect democracy!!

mike65

Newbie Alert!!!!!!!!!

Mike.

looksee

Look, if you feel strongly about it, come up with an alternative name and use it. (West European Isles, North Atlantic Isles, IONA, whatever). If enough people are concerned they will use it. The internet is a great vehicle for spreading the word. You don't need permission, just get on with it. Don't expect Britain or anywhere else to jump up and down with enthusiasm, they'll just ignore you, but if common usage gets well enough established, they'll use it without even noticing. See, problem solved:D

LordSutch

I have just been looking at the offending 31 pages of the current (2006) Folens Atlas, and I am genuinely curious to know "What will be the heading be on those 31 pages in 2007" ...............?

Does anyone know for sure?
Has anyone found out?
Has anyone been able to contact Folens?
(I have tried countless times).

Folens Tel: .

WhiteWashMan

Ken77 wrote:

:mad:
There is a need for a replacement name if you belive in democracy....look at the stats above....if the majority of Irish people want a change there should be a change....the word is offensive to most Irish people...respect democracy!!

ohhhhhhh, thats a pretty dangerous stastic to be bandying about the place.

you got facts to back that one up?


i dont think the above statistic is a proportionate representation of irish society.

gurramok

WhiteWashMan wrote:

ohhhhhhh, thats a pretty dangerous stastic to be bandying about the place.

you got facts to back that one up?


i dont think the above statistic is a proportionate representation of irish society.

Disagree with you there. I have never heard the term used in my dealings with people from all nationalities in my 31 years, have you?

Well for starters to back it up, the govt elected by the people don't recognise it neither do Irish legal and media circles, can you name a representaive in either the Dail or the Seanad who recognise it or even used it?

Its not stated in our constitution neither to describe that offensive term of where we are located!

LordSutch

gurramok wrote:

Disagree with you there. I have never heard the term used in my dealings with people from all nationalities in my 31 years, have you?

I am one of those who do recognise the 'Geographical term' british isles, & even I would never use the term, unless I was talking about the effects of the Gulf Stream on the british isles, or the Mountain ranges of the british isles, or the climate of the british isles! otherwise I would never use the term, as it does not apply to politics or the people of these islands, but ther term is essential in the fields pertaining to the geography of this Archipelago!

gurramok wrote:

Well for starters to back it up, the govt elected by the people don't recognise it neither do Irish legal and media circles, can you name a representaive in either the Dail or the Seanad who recognise it or even used it?

Its irrelavent wheather the Government recognise the term or not, because Mr Joe Bloggs (the cartographer) will be drawing up his 'physical map' of Europe & the british isles anyway, irrespective of who is in power in which Country, the point being ~ the term British isles refers to the Geoghraphy of the world map & not the politics!

gurramok wrote:

Its not stated in our constitution neither to describe that offensive term of where we are located!

We are geographically located on this Archipelago of 6000 (approx) islands universally known as the british isles (in Geographical terms only)!


The term British isles is used in every single Atlas the World over, & will continue to be used in the 'Physical' pages of every Atlas apart of course from the Folens (R.O.I) edition ........................

Which still begs the question "what will Folens replace the term with"?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ken77 wrote:

:mad:
There is a need for a replacement name if you belive in democracy....look at the stats above....if the majority of Irish people want a change there should be a change....the word is offensive to most Irish people...respect democracy!!

The majority of people here aslo think that farting is hilarious, but I don;t think it should be in the constitution!

Scrumpyjake

british isles is a political term The argument that is a geographical term is nonsense We are not British therefore this is not a British isle. it makes no sense > the fact it once was in common usage is irrelevant . "red indian " and "coloured people" were once terms in common usage . they're both long gone onto rubbish heap . British isles should join them

LordSutch

For those who say "I was never taught about the british isles in school" please take a look in the 'Physical pages' of your old school Atlas, or any world Atlas for that matter!

There has to be an internationally recognised name for this Archipelago (these islands) and currently the term is 'The British Isles' & there is no reason why the name of 'these rocks' should change internationally because of some Irish Nationalistic hang-up!

Borders come and go & Countries change their names occasionally, but I cant honestly see a need to change the Geographic name of a location!

The term 'British isles' pertains only to these rocks/ islands & not the inhabitants or National identies of the people currently living here.

robinph

Scrumpyjake wrote:

british isles is a political term The argument that is a geographical term is nonsense We are not British therefore this is not a British isle.

Switzerland is in Europe but it is not part of Europe.

Now I've not spent much time reading threads on conseils.cz/ bretter.cz but I'm not aware of them having much of an issue with there being two words spelt the same but one being a geographical term and the other political.

galwayrush

cooker3 wrote:

I couldn't care less, it's geographic term
It simply doesn't matter.

exactly. all a fuss about nothing.

faceman

I cant believe this thread is still going. been called the british isles or not wont make feck all difference if things get nasty in north korea.

Victor

ArthurF wrote:

... these islands .... 'these rocks' ...

Note that rocks and Islands are different. Rocks are small, low, change size radically with the tide and have predominantly marine plants, islands do not.

Victor

robinph wrote:

Switzerland is in Europe but it is not part of Europe.

Now I've not spent much time reading threads on conseils.cz/ bretter.cz but I'm not aware of them having much of an issue with there being two words spelt the same but one being a geographical term and the other political.

Do you mean conseils.ch / bretter.ch

.cz = Czech Republic, another anomaly.

robinph

Victor wrote:

Do you mean conseils.ch / bretter.ch

.iz = Czech Republic, another anomaly.

Damn, I knew there was a C in it but just remembered the other random letter wrong.

At least the Czech's get one letter in their domain that makes a bit of sense.

Samaris

What happened to the suggestion of 'North Atlantic Archipelago' for the British Isles? I'm fairly sure there was something about that.

Although...at least most people can pronounce 'British Isles'...

Liam Byrne

Lots of people in the UK (particularly those correspondents used by the Irish-owned media) use weird terms, including "the mainland" :rolleyes: , when they're referring to Ireland.

Oddly enough, while the UK media (and, by association, the Irish ones that still think waffling about UK celebs or quoting UK surveys and suchlike is relevant and interesting) will happily use "The British Isles", they're respectful enough to avoid using the word "Persian" when referring to "The Gulf".

As for the Irish Sea and stuff like that, the water expanses around the islands seem to be named in relation to the area to the west of them, so "The Irish Sea" and "The English Channel" are consistent, even if they do leave out France's claim to the Channel.

I personally hate the term; it's annoying and confusing and gives UK companies an excuse to be lazy and not treat Ireland as a country, trying to "serve" the country from ".co.uk" addresses, listing products and helplines only available from the UK, etc, etc.

Rather than complaining about it, though, we should try educating those poor unfortunates that don't know the difference; radio interviewers should correct their guests (as Matt Cooper found out one day, when someone responded to such an error by a guest by texting from the Aran Islands to say "the mainland" was over in Galway).

Funnily enough, did anyone see Ricky whatsisface from The Royle Family on The Late Late a week or two ago ? He slagged off Jade for not knowing that Portugal wasn't in Spain, but then seemed confused about the mainland and whether TLLS went out in the UK !!!!! Glasshouses and stones, Ricky!!!!

Does anyone know if the term "North America" includes Canada ?

The_Conductor

Samaris wrote:

What happened to the suggestion of 'North Atlantic Archipelago' for the British Isles?

Only if they give us Rockall back......

mike65

Leave it!

Mike.

The_Conductor

robinph wrote:

Switzerland is in Europe but it is not part of Europe.

Now I've not spent much time reading threads on conseils.cz/ bretter.cz but I'm not aware of them having much of an issue with there being two words spelt the same but one being a geographical term and the other political.

Europe is not a political term- the European Union is. Switzerland, along with being part of Europe (not the EU) is also a member of the EEA (European Economic Area) and also a member of the Council of Europe (A European organisation focusing on human rights, democracy and the rule of law). Incidentally Norway is in the same position.

elivsvonchiaing

..Having read this thread thought the following:
Everywhere the British had empire - when you want to send stuff and you want to state Ireland as an address - and they don't have a clue:
1 Main Street,
Cavan,
Co. Monaghan,
Ireland
U.K.

Its the last line that will get it there. By all means try it without - invariably the last line will get it there.

Why?

Because a political change in a tiny country 1000kms away does not constitute a recall of millions of geography books for school-kids.


No offence - but insistence on not having Ireland named as British geographically - is bollox.

We can rename Ireland as anything - will it affect how people live here? No!

I am proud to state that I live in the Irish Republic which is part of the British Isles - purely because I can get my fedex packages on time (not always though - <rant>resist another rant here</rant>.

So not everybody agrees with me.

Please though, can someone please explain how not being part of the geographical british isles (remember there's a lot of geography books to be printed here - at least 40 million in chinese (not even sure if we can get away with mandarin here...) similar number for India - (hindi for all ain't gonna work!)

Does ignorrance, naivity and stupidity ring any bells in this argument?

elivsvonchiaing

..Having read this thread thought the following:
Everywhere the British had empire - when you want to send stuff and you want to state Ireland as an address - and they don't have a clue:
1 Main Street,
Cavan,
Co. Monaghan,
Ireland
U.K.

Its the last line that will get it there. By all means try it without - invariably the last line will get it there.

Why?

Because a political change in a tiny country 1000kms away does not constitute a recall of millions of geography books for school-kids.


No offence - but insistence on not having Ireland named as British geographically - is bollox.

We can rename Ireland as anything - will it affect how people live here? No!

I am proud to state that I live in the Irish Republic which is part of the British Isles - purely because I can get my fedex packages on time (not always though - <rant>resist another rant here</rant>.

So not everybody agrees with me.

Please though, can someone please explain how not being part of the geographical british isles (remember there's a lot of geography books to be printed here - at least 40 million in chinese (not even sure if we can get away with mandarin here...) similar number for India - (hindi for all ain't gonna work!)

Does arrogance, naivity and stupidity ring any bells in this argument?

brianthebard

In a history module on the four nations last year we used the term "Atlantic arcipeligos" which removes all politics from the situation and I think that's the best idea personally.

robinph

smccarrick wrote:

Europe is not a political term- the European Union is. Switzerland, along with being part of Europe (not the EU) is also a member of the EEA (European Economic Area) and also a member of the Council of Europe (A European organisation focusing on human rights, democracy and the rule of law). Incidentally Norway is in the same position.

True, but I think you'll find that most people don't actually bother stating "European Union" when they are talking about the political body. It will more than likely just be called Europe, or those idiots in Brussels.

Capt'n Midnight

faceman wrote:

I cant believe this thread is still going. been called the british isles or not wont make feck all difference if things get nasty in north korea.

<cough> Chosen Peninsula <chough>

LordSutch

brianthebard wrote:

In a history module on the four nations last year we used the term "Atlantic arcipeligos" which removes all politics from the situation and I think that's the best idea personally.

Unfortunately for you & your history module, the term 'Atlantic Archipelagos' is not a recognised term, and neither are 'These islands' or 'The british & Irish isles' or 'The W.I.S.E. islands' (Wales/Ireland/Scotland/England) because you see, any replacement term must be internationally recognised before it is adopted!

I am in the enviable position where by I have access to eighteen modern World Atlases (Folens irish edition included) and has been stressed many times before in this thread, the Term 'British Isles' only appears in the Physical (geographical) pages of those Atlases ~ in other words, if you look in the Political pages of any Atlas the offending term does not appear, & is correctly replaced with 'The UK & Ireland' which is a (Political term).

And Folens.ie still havent decided upon a replacement term for 2007 .

upthere

Why would we be want to be classed in the same class as UK in fairness? They got better roads, better looking women, better transportation system, better table manners, rest points on their roads for drivers. I mean come on! This should not be an issue anymore in the western world. Ireland was once a third world country like Nigeria, I guess we would like to be classed more like Nigeria than England? Get a life!
Im glad Ireland is under Irish rule and not British but look at this site:
http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html

English people shout, cause hooliganism etc abroad but Irish are very different from continental folk. In the film the commitments they say Irish are the blacks of Europe, well I don't particularly find that anything to be proud of being Irish!!

Kingsize

Why dont we settle on a term thats equally offensive to everyone in the catchment area of the "British isles"
i'd suggest "The c_ntish isles" which would not only offend everyone but would remind everyone that somethings are better left alone.

upthere

The English regarded Irish as similar to blacks! No other country in Europe was like that. Jesus I'm damn proud of that im sure all the rest of you are too with your pride that we are not included with Britain, we are our own Island of insurance claims and people regarded as being like Africans. Are you proud that we are that much different to the UK?

Flex

upthere wrote:

Why would we be want to be classed in the same class as UK in fairness? They got better roads, better looking women, better transportation system, better table manners, rest points on their roads for drivers. I mean come on! This should not be an issue anymore in the western world. Ireland was once a third world country like Nigeria, I guess we would like to be classed more like Nigeria than England? Get a life!
Im glad Ireland is under Irish rule and not British but look at this site:
http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html

English people shout, cause hooliganism etc abroad but Irish are very different from continental folk. In the film the commitments they say Irish are the blacks of Europe, well I don't particularly find that anything to be proud of being Irish!!

upthere wrote:

The English regarded Irish as similar to blacks! No other country in Europe was like that. Jesus I'm damn proud of that im sure all the rest of you are too with your pride that we are not included with Britain, we are our own Island of insurance claims and people regarded as being like Africans. Are you proud that we are that much different to the UK?

What?

upthere

I'm just annoyed at that sh*te

Flex

upthere wrote:

I'm just annoyed at that sh*te

Which stuff; wanting Irland to be classed a 'British island' or not wanting Ireland to be classed as being a 'British island'?

upthere

I dont care about british isles sh*te the fact Irish were regarded as black! Would you like to be regarded as black?

aidan_walsh

upthere wrote:

I dont care about british isles sh*te the fact Irish were regarded as black! Would you like to be regarded as black?

Something wrong with being black, Mr. Troll?

upthere

Nothing wrong with being black at all. I just want to be white because I want to be white as I was rared as a white person. Or are we part black so i can adjust to it?

Kingsize

Maybe if people were actually proud of being Irish instead of being just glad not to be british then I'd care more about the British isles thing.
But ultimately who gives a **** when all we appear to have is a diluted sense of national identity.
I can understand why a term like" British isles" would be offensive but not any more offensive than carrolls Irish souvenier shop selling Leprechaun outfits & other such sh_t to Tourists on every fookin street .
These days it seems that being Irish is only determined by wearing a a GLasgow celtic jersey while on holiday.
So who can blame the misinformed foreigners for getting Uk /Ireland mixed up.

Thrill

"The Irish government's policy is that the term is not used by the government and is without any official status, as stated by Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern in October of 2006"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/news/viewn.asp?id=GIS:N_peyxmlqdhf

google this: british isles dermot ahern

The idea that it is just geographical term does not seem to be shared by our own goverment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

thrill wrote:

"The Irish government's policy is that the term is not used by the government and is without any official status, as stated by Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern in October of 2006"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/news/viewn.asp?id=GIS:N_peyxmlqdhf

google this: british isles dermot ahern

The idea that it is just geographical term does not seem to be shared by our own goverment.

Contradcition there, I'm afraid. Saying it's without OFFICAL status (which it is) does not mean they don't see it as a geographical term.

mike65

upthere wrote:

I dont care about british isles sh*te the fact Irish were regarded as black! Would you like to be regarded as black?

On dear, a Commitments moment on boards, sort of.

Mike.

Thrill

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Contradcition there, I'm afraid. Saying it's without OFFICAL status (which it is) does not mean they don't see it as a geographical term.

Then why is the term to be removed from school atlas's from january 2007?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/03/nisles03.xml

Dont get me wrong, the term has never bothered me but as of late it seems to be a bit of an issue.
I know it's a geographical term but the fact that it was named "british" is what makes people angry.

If the street you are living in was changed to "stupid people road" i'll bet your neigbours would be up in arms over it. Try telling them it's only a "geographical" term.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

thrill wrote:

Then why is the term to be removed from school atlas's from january 2007?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/03/nisles03.xml

Dont get me wrong, the term has never bothered me but as of late it seem to be a bit of an issue.
I know it's a grographical term but the fact that it was named "british" is what makes people angry.

If the street you are living in was changed to "stupid people road" i'll bet your neigbours would be up in arms over it. Try telling them it's only a "geographical" term.

My neightbours get up in arms if the grass is the wrong shade of green, tbh.

Anyway, I was just commenting on the governemnt's use of 'official' against your use of 'geogrpahical'. Nothing worng, they just don't contrast each other.

Thrill

Tbh i have'nt heard this topic brought up in years and years. I thought we had moved on from this type of thing. Appearantly not. It will probably never go away.

Btw there's a neighbourhood near me with a residents association that would make the natzies look like angles. They give out if the grass goes above a certin height. That is not a joke. Honest. (Is there a thread on this somewhere, cause resident associations really get up my nose)

JaysusMacfeck

Hmm.. well I've been out this evening with a few of my new Spanish mates. I was chatting to them (with my pig Spanish) about why they moved to Irlanda and not Englanda, etc.

Most of them moved here purely from word of mouth from heads that lived here before. This is the same situation in Scotland when I lived there, they all come over purely by word of mouth, follow the flock. Come over, get drunk, learn English.

So anyway, in Spain they learn about European politics in Geography and Irlanda comes under the "Islas Británicas" section, which, from what I can gather, focuses entirely on the British Empire and Spain’s relationship to the Royals and what not. The girls I was chatting to were under the impression that the two islands have been are still are politically and culturally united in every way. They only learned that Irlanda was actually a different country after a week or two of living here. They also though that the “Gaelico” on our the roads signs was from Scotland! All the more reason to get rid of it as it only causes confusion.

So, the two islands are almost always referred to as the Islas Británicas. This is entirely assumed to be one single a political and cultural entity by most - not that they give a crap either way, but that's what our European friends are being let to believe. Ireland is a British island in Britain in the British isles…

God save the Queen! Viva Islas Británicas

Terry

They also though that the “Gaelico” on our the roads signs was from Scotland! All the more reason to get rid of it as it only causes confusion.

Yes. Let's get rid of the Gaeilge on our road signs because a couple of ill informed Spaniards thought it was Scottish.

sceptre

We could always invade Scotland again. That'd show 'em. Plus we could swap it back for Northern Ireland later, though we might be better off just keeping western Scotland.