The british isles and Ireland.

Terry

Dragan wrote:

So are many English, and indeed, so are many Irish?

true. but i don't think a man in his position should be making statements like that.

Kwekubo

Wertz wrote:

Geographically, of course I do. They are the british isles and always have been.

Politically, hell no, and I'd be insulted by any insinuation that I am in any way British.

Word. It's just a bleeding geographical name after all.

Wertz

julep wrote:

they haven't always been the british isles.
like i said in anohter thread, the name brittania is the roman name parts of england and wales. the romans referred to Ireland as "Hibernia". it was the brits who decided that we are part of the british isles. technically we were at the time, but not out of choice.

also, if it refers to all island in the area, does that mean that the proper name for the aran islands is 'the aran islands of the british isles'?

Well since maps have been getting drawn/printed they have. When most seafaring maps were first drawn by the English, Ireland fell under the title "The United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland" and remained that way for a fair while after. Things have changed since politically, but not geographically. Why should the name change? It's the term for this collection of islands.
What have the romans got to do with anything? They didn't exactly invent nor conquer this island (much). There were a few people previous to the romans and a fair few afterwards; Roman's for a lot of the part merely "borrowed" knowledge from the more ancient cultures and civilizations and were by no means the first people to set up shop on these islands.

I'd have far more of a problem with the term Londonderry used officially instead of Derry, than I would with the British Isles including the island of Ireland...

julep wrote:

i would hardly call michael palin ignorant. he has travelled the world.
he actually came across as quite condescending in that interview.

As much as I respect Palin as a broadcaster and comedian at the end of it all, he's still a brit, colonialism is in his culture, he's been brought up to think like that. I'll not apologise for him, but it's his viewpoint. It's still wrong though.
What pisses me off more is when we see Irish sports competitors come good, and all of a sudden they're British....until they f*ck up and suddenly they're Irish again...I've seen it so many times over the years. It's one of the main reasons I love to see England fair badly at international football

Terry

Wertz wrote:

Well since maps have been getting drawn/printed they have. When most seafaring maps were first drawn by the English, Ireland fell under the title "The United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland" and remained that way for a fair while after.Things have changed since politically, but not geographically. Why should the name change? It's the term for this collection of islands.

120 years to be exact. that still doesn't change the fact that we are not british. there are lots of small islands off the coast of Ireland. they seem to also fall into the catergory of "british isles". why are they not now referred to as "Irish isles"?
been to bombay lately? you won't find that on a new map. it's now called "Mumbai". it's not that difficult to change the name of a place and it would be relatively east to omit the term "british isles" from future maps of this area, or make it so that the term is restricted to islands under british control.
northern Ireland doesn't count because it has the name Ireland attached to it and is part of the island of Ireland.

What have the romans got to do with anything? They didn't exactly invent nor conquer this island (much). There were a few people previous to the romans and a fair few afterwards; Roman's for a lot of the part merely "borrowed" knowledge from the more ancient cultures and civilizations and were by no means the first people to set up shop on these islands.

the name britan is a derivative of the name britannia, which is the name given to parts of england and wales by the romans. that's what they have to do with it.

I'd have far more of a problem with the term Londonderry used officially instead of Derry, than I would with the British Isles including the island of Ireland...

i agree with you on that. it isn't referred to as "londonderry" in any Irish make maps that i have ever seen. and rightly so.

As much as I respect Palin as a broadcaster and comedian at the end of it all, he's still a brit, colonialism is in his culture, he's been brought up to think like that. I'll not apologise for him, but it's his viewpoint. It's still wrong though.

most of the english people i have spoken to feel that Ireland is the exact same as england in every way and that we are the same people. i disagree with that and those people have learned the error of their ways after spending time here. they have gotten to know that Ireland and england are not the same culturally.


i think the poll speaks for itself.
most people don't recognise Ireland as part of the british isles.
and there i was thinking that i would have to edit the poll to fit my own agenda.

Wertz

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree...I'd consider myself fairly nationalist but the term for these islands never bothered me. Besides isn't it all just western europe now?

mike65

We are all Europeans now - like it or lump it!

Mike.

gurramok

Jakkass wrote:

as said before I regard it as a geographical term, many islands are referred to in the British Isles, e.g uk mainland, isle of man, ireland, scottish islands, isle of wight, who cares, we got to name the Irish Sea as another poster said didn't we?

Nobody lives in the Irish Sea and hence no-one can be labelled Irish.
Different for the land called Ireland, people live here and are labeled by a foreign term on where they live hence the offensiveness the term causes.

Mossy Monk

are the Canadians pissed off about being part of North America

it is a geographical term, not a political one

iFight

No problem with it at all, as said it's a geographical term.

Giblet

Who gives a crap? Armchair patriots, that's who. I love the way people love to get tangled up in this crap because it offends them so. ATE 'UNDREAD YARS!

If anyone associates Ireland with being British then it's their ignorance. I wouldn't be too pushed to "educate" them.

baztard

BendiBus wrote:

In fairness, few people would accept Derry was the answer to that particular question

Speak for yourself. Or maybe your just stirring things up. I dare you to go to the people of Derry and tell them their not part of Ireland.

Collie D

baztard wrote:

Speak for yourself. Or maybe your just stirring things up. I dare you to go to the people of Derry and tell them their not part of Ireland.

I don't think that was his point. He was having a tongue in cheek giggle at the though somebody would think Derry was the best spot on this island leaving out the politics.

As for OP, I don't like the term British Isles either and it's nothing to do with eight hundred years or whatever, would be equally annyd if we were known as the French Isles for some reason.

#Smokey#

british isles is offensive since it signifies that the countries within the location belong to britain, which is false as Ireland is not nor ever will be under british control

Capt'n Midnight

Derry 'cos it's quicker to say and type.

UK / Britain depending on the reality of the situation.

Still amazes me how many UK residents don't seem to know the full name of their country and that NI is part of UK but not Britain.

In Irish isn't Wales referred to as 'Little Britain' ..

Are the Manx British ?

Dave!

Of course I recognise it, it's geography not politics.

Much like the Irish Sea.

Mr.Nice Guy

I don't recognise it myself. It implies British ownership of this island which is an erroneous implication.

It's funny that they were willing to rename the British Lions to 'British and Irish Lions' yet they won't rename the 'British Isles' to the 'British and Irish isles', 'IONA' or any other equal term.

At the end of the day they would have us refer to Derry as 'Londonderry' but do we do it? No.

I'm personally not going to use their old archaic terminology.

Pocari Sweat

Although Northern Ireland is regarded cartographically as 6 counties and smaller than the larger province of Ulster including Donegal etc, and like Scotland and Wales, it is separate from England, but is it both a state and a country or just a state. George Best played for Northern Ireland and not Ireland or England, so are the people from Northern Ireland, Northern Irish or are they more Irish or more British?

Also is using "the UK" as opposed to just "Britain" a bit annoying? If the UK is short for the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland, and if just the UK is just used, is that sort of roughly describing England, Scotland and Wales, without NI?

To illustrate the confusion / fear of the issue, it is interesting that there are nearly twice as many in the poll that recognise the british isles than pollers that don't care, but there were about 20 posters who indicated they didn't care or regarded it as a geographical term to about zero posters who recognised the british isles with regard to ireland, indicating anonymous opinions are in fear somehow of the openly discussed opinions. Is this a fair enough synopsis, looking at the poll figures?

The british isles as a term usually seems to be just sat in the background minding its own business to some extent, but I think there is more of any every day juxtaposition of using the english language as the main language in ireland but to some degree regretting the historical anglicising of place names, with a push for the return of previous gaelic names (An Dangan) and common terms (Bruscar) and a shared use of gaelic in official and government matters, affecting both the geographical and political language use.

Previous quote = Great Britain may well be a translation of the French term Grande Bretagne, which is used in France to distinguish Britain from Brittany (in French: Bretagne) ... Since the English court and aristocracy was largely French-speaking for about two centuries after the Norman Conquest of 1066, the French term naturally passed into English usage ... Could be its the French's fault.

Julep = "well i would think someone as well travelled as palin would know that Irish people are not british and i think any british person with an ounce of common sense would know that deliberately calling an Irish person "british" is fairly insulting considering our history. like i said, he came across as quite condescending and seems to be stuck in the past regarding Irish independence and citizenship."

Several posts discussed Michael Palin - but all forgetting he is after all Michael Palin ie; he is well travelled, from a top university etc, but he was an anchor man of the Monty Python crew and very tongue in cheek and very humorous, he was obviously being cheeky, don't think for one minute this fine chap was being serious, for god sakes. The Irish are meant to have a sense of humour, not a chip on their shoulder.

Monty Python had a cracker of a scene in The Life of Brian, - "What did the Romans do for us?". Is it a bit like that with the British being the unwelcome guests of the Irish? What did the British do for us? - Well ... err ... they built bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developed a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country. But apart from building bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developing a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country ... what did the facking British do for us? Well ... they gave us the language we speak helping with the development of business and commerce in doing trade with the largest world economy America and with English being the international language of computers, commerce and the internet, it put us in a good position as a world leading exporter in computer software and helped with the IT boom and the setting up of large American corporate medical manufacturing facilities and various things that helped push along the Celtic Tiger.

But apart from building bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developing a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country, and giving us the language we speak helping with the development of business and commerce in doing trade with the largest world economy America and with English being the international language of computers, commerce and the internet, putting us in a good position as a world leading exporter in computer software, helping with the IT boom and the setting up of large American corporate medical manufacturing facilities and various things that helped push along the Celtic Tiger ... what did the facking British do for us?

Well ... err ... they gave us all them classic television comedies from the 70's, 80's, 90's and a lot of other telly stuff, plus most of the newspapers and magazines and other media, making up a lot of what we read, also exporting a wide range in the brands of food and products and services that we use every day, big supermarkets and national chains of various superstores etc etc. But apart from all that crap ... what did the facking British do for us?

JaysusMacfeck

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

ere the Manx British ?

Yes, they hold British passports but with endorsments. They cannot work or live freely in other EU countries like we can because they are not part of the EU.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Monty Python had a cracker of a scene in The Life of Brian, - "What did the Romans do for us?". Is it a bit like that with the British being the unwelcome guests of the Irish? What did the British do for us? - Well ... err ... they built bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developed a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country. But apart from building bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developing a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country ... what did the facking British do for us? Well ... they gave us the language we speak helping with the development of business and commerce in doing trade with the largest world economy America and with English being the international language of computers, commerce and the internet, it put us in a good position as a world leading exporter in computer software and helped with the IT boom and the setting up of large American corporate medical manufacturing facilities and various things that helped push along the Celtic Tiger.

But apart from building bridges and aqueducts, roads and railways and developing a bit of the architectural infrastructure of the country, and giving us the language we speak helping with the development of business and commerce in doing trade with the largest world economy America and with English being the international language of computers, commerce and the internet, putting us in a good position as a world leading exporter in computer software, helping with the IT boom and the setting up of large American corporate medical manufacturing facilities and various things that helped push along the Celtic Tiger ... what did the facking British do for us?

Well ... err ... they gave us all them classic television comedies from the 70's, 80's, 90's and a lot of other telly stuff, plus most of the newspapers and magazines and other media, making up a lot of what we read, also exporting a wide range in the brands of food and products and services that we use every day, big supermarkets and national chains of various superstores etc etc. But apart from all that crap ... what did the facking British do for us?

Nice bit of propaganda there. I mean why bother mentioning things like the slaughter of natives, the Penal Laws, the attempt to eradicate the language, the oppression of Catholics up until O'Connell, their response to the Famine, their response to the democratic desire for Home Rule, their refusal to withdraw from the island following the 1918 general election victory for Sinn Féin, the decision to send over the Black and Tan state terrorists, the imposition of Partition against the will of the majority, Bloody Sunday as well as MI5 involvement which helped bring about atrocities such as the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974.

After all they did give us such great infrastructure!

JaysusMacfeck

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Well ... they gave us the language we speak helping with the development of business and commerce in doing trade with the largest world economy America

I don't agree with this.

If Ireland achieved its idependance in 1800 (long before the famine) there's no doubt that the country would have faired a lot better during this disaster. The land would have been taken off the landlords and given back to the Irish people. As the majority of the population in Ireland spoke Irish before the period of mass death and emmigration, it would still be the majority language today. I think that the pale would probably still be a majority of English speakers so it still would have still been attractive to American IT companies, etc.

Also, with Ireland's close proximity with Britain, I believe the level of English as a secondary language would have been very high, if not higher than the Netherlands.

JaysusMacfeck

Pocari Sweat wrote:

most of the Black and Tans were home grown anyway.

I don't know where you're getting your information. Most of the Black n' Tans were English and Scottish WW1 army veterans.

JaysusMacfeck

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

After all they did give us such great infrastructure!

And in return Ireland scrapped most of the railways/tramways and sold the iron to the Germans during the war.

JaysusMacfeck

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Many, maybe, but not all.

Um, yes, and certainly not mostly homegrown as you originally said.

rogue-entity

British Isles is just a geographic term for the these two islands, just like North America is a geographic term for the contenent that makes up the United States, Mexico and Canada. I am sure you dont here the Mexicans and Canadians complaining about the word "america" in the name for their contenent.

JaysusMacfeck

Maybe that's because Mexico and Canada were never under American rule. Ireland was under British rule against the wishes of its people. I guess this is why you hear the Irish complaining about the term for these islands.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Now that there is more awareness that Ireland is in the British Isles, will everyone start hanging the Union Jack out their windows in the Free State then, from now on?

The Free State ended in 1937.

Dave!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I don't recognise it myself. It implies British ownership of this island which is an erroneous implication.

It's funny that they were willing to rename the British Lions to 'British and Irish Lions' yet they won't rename the 'British Isles' to the 'British and Irish isles', 'IONA' or any other equal term.

At the end of the day they would have us refer to Derry as 'Londonderry' but do we do it? No.

I'm personally not going to use their old archaic terminology.

Just curious, what do you call the plot of water between Dublin and Lancashire?

JaysusMacfeck

DaveMcG wrote:

Just curious, what do you call the plot of water between Dublin and Lancashire?

We've been through this several times already

Mr.Nice Guy

DaveMcG wrote:

Just curious, what do you call the plot of water between Dublin and Lancashire?

I call it the Irish Sea but sea can't be owned whereas land can.

Mind if I ask whether you refer to the county to the right of Donegal as Derry or Londonderry?

Dave!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I call it the Irish Sea but sea can't be owned whereas land can.

If sea can't be owned then why is it called the Irish Sea?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Mind if I ask whether you refer to the county to the right of Donegal as Derry or Londonderry?

I'd usually call it Derry cos it's shorter and rolls right off the tongue, but if I were writing a factual report on the county, I'd call it its actual name, Londonderry.

JaysusMacfeck

I call it Derry becuase that's what I was taught in school. It's on all Irish OS maps, road signs and is always called Derry in Irish media. If I was conversing with someone about Derry and they refered to it as Londonderry, I would also call it that to avoid confusion.

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd call it its actual name, Londonderry.

Which is correct but 'Derry' is also official in Londonderry or Derry City in County Derry(Londonderry). AHHHHHHHHH! Who cares

Derry City Council

JaysusMacfeck

Pocari Sweat wrote:

What about the Gaelic for Derry - Doire. For small wood.

You still can't escape the naming issue in Irish. It is refered to as 'Doire' and 'Londaindoire' but Irish speakers in Derry are most likely going to call it 'Doire' for obvious reasons.

Gileadi

if it was labelled the "Irish Isles" would you people still have the same problem with it? i think not, its time to get over the anti british sentiment and accept we are in the same island group as britain,and as the smaller island we are likely to get lumped in with it

its not as though it decreases our own soverignity in any way shape or form....

dSTAR

I sometimes use the term British Isles when people from Asia or other nationals look befuddled when I say I am originally from Ireland.

You'd be surprised when you say Ireland a lot of people say where?!!

If you think about it Ireland really isn't all that important and most non Irish people couldn't give a toss what you class yourself as...

JaysusMacfeck

When you say "British Isles" all they hear is "British" so they assume your British. Personally, I wouldn't be happy with that.

All you need to say is "Irish pub". Every major capital has several Irish pubs.

Gurgle

I hate when people refer to the USA as 'America'.

Would be like calling France 'Europe'.

Oh and btw the 'Great' in 'Great Britain' simply refers to the fact that its the largest of the Brittish Isles.

Black Swan

Ireland a part of the British Isles? Not after 1922.

Dave!

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Ireland a part of the British Isles? Not after 1922.

You're obviously confusing the British Isles with the United Kingdom.

Pocari Sweat

Grand Brettagne, a term which the french still use today was originally coined by them as the term describing the larger of two Bretagnes, which is standard cartographical and area naming terminology.

Blame the French.

Britanny in France was the smaller of the two, when it was originally thought about naming the Grander one of the two.

The bigger one is quite grand anyway, and they were not far off either, how did they know a thousand years ago, the Brits would do so well and go so far in the world, it could have been anyones race to rule the world and be top dogs. The Irish could have done it, if they didn't keep getting beaten up by the Vikings and mixing up with those Spanish sailors in the West.

Imagine the French could have called Ireland Petite Bretagne.

Capt'n Midnight

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I call it the Irish Sea but sea can't be owned whereas land can.

http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/La-Mi/Law-of-the-Sea.html

EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE

An Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is one of the tools defined by the Convention on the Law of the Sea. In the eighteenth century, the cannon-shot rule governed a nation's claims to territorial seas, based on the distance that projectiles could be fired from a cannon onshore—at that time, about 4.8 kilometers (3 miles). The Law of the Sea built on this idea and expanded the zone to 322 kilometers (200 miles).

Today, nations have the right to develop, manage, and conserve all resources in waters, on the ocean floor, and in the subsoil in the area extending 322 kilometers (200 miles) from its shore. These EEZs bring many benefits to countries, because lucrative fishing, oil, and other reserves often lie within these zones.

IIRC the North Sea boundries are precision measured

WhiteWashMan

people get upset by things that they want to get upset by.

personally i think its a stupid purile waste of time to get upset over the naming of a geographic area, but then again, im an intelligent human being.

perhaps those people that get upset just have issues with their own identy and nationalism?

Capt'n Midnight

Pocari Sweat wrote:

I'm sure there's a lot of maudling stuff that can be dug up, but remember what Monty Python sung about in The Meaning of Life ... Always look on the bright siiide of life, do do, do do, do do do do ...

Yeah, you're right Monty was a much better singer than Eric or Neil.

'da-dum, da-dum, da-da, da-da, da-dum'

fly_agaric

Gurgle wrote:

I hate when people refer to the USA as 'America'.

Would be like calling France 'Europe'.

The word "Europe" doesn't appear in the name of "France".
The word "America" does appear in the full name of the USA, so shortening it to "America" has some logic even if it písses S. and Central Americans off.

Wertz

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Now that there is more awareness that Ireland is in the British Isles, will everyone start hanging the Union Jack out their windows in the Free State then, from now on?

On health and safety grounds I'd have to say no, since it presents a major fire hazard...

Capt'n Midnight

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Now that there is more awareness that Ireland is in the British Isles, will everyone start hanging the Union Jack out their windows in the Free State then, from now on?

Do you mean this ?
http://www.serve.com/pfc/pics/050122fd.jpg

Terry

pocari sweat, do not post in this thread again unless you have something constructive to add.
any more troling and you will be banned from AH.

Pocari Sweat

I'm sorry I will streamline the post that may have caused offence;

To illustrate the confusion / fear of the issue, it is interesting that there are nearly twice as many in the poll that recognise the british isles than pollers that don't care, but there were about 20 posters who indicated they didn't care or regarded it as a geographical term to about zero posters who recognised the british isles with regard to ireland, indicating anonymous opinions are in fear somehow of the openly discussed opinions. Is this a fair enough synopsis, looking at the poll figures?

Julep = "well i would think someone as well travelled as palin would know that Irish people are not british and i think any british person with an ounce of common sense would know that deliberately calling an Irish person "british" is fairly insulting considering our history. like i said, he came across as quite condescending and seems to be stuck in the past regarding Irish independence and citizenship."

Several posts discussed Michael Palin - but all forgetting he is after all Michael Palin ie; he is well travelled, from a top university etc, but he was an anchor man of the Monty Python crew and very tongue in cheek and very humorous, he was obviously being cheeky, don't think for one minute this fine chap was being serious, for god sakes. The Irish are meant to have a sense of humour, not a chip on their shoulder.

I was only being humourous Julep, like Michael Palin, I'm sure you have broad enough shoulders.

Terry

i am well aware of palin's humour.
this was not a humourous comment by him. it was a condescending comment and was not said in a tongue in cheek way.

he made it quite clear that he believed that colin farrell (and all Irish people by default) are british because Ireland is one of the british isles.

as for people being afraid to voice their opinion regarding their belief that Ireland should be recognised as one of the british isles, i think they shoud speak up as it would add to this (mostly one sided) debate.

Pocari Sweat

Are you sure you have the right Michael Palin? Michael Palin, the funny chap?

Pocari Sweat

I can understand Margaret Thatcher, what she said about the Irish, but Michael Palin? That would seriously change my view of him.

Pocari Sweat

I'm sure other cities in Ireland deny they are ruled from Dublin, but they are none the less.

Obviously Ireland is not ruled from England, so Michael Palin was obviously joking, Ireland may be geographically within the British Isles as an out dated term but obviously not under their control.