Rifle jam on Range

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

If what you're asying is true (and i don't think it is) how do you extract a round that is put in the barrel but not fired?????

That's the point of this thread Vegeta. Oldzed's 1022 apart, most semis I've come across (and owned, until I decided they were not the safest or most accurate firearm around) did not have any extractor on the action capable of dislodging a misfire.

The last one I owned (a unique), had a nasty habit (with some rounds) of not reciprocating back far enough to recock the firing pin, and would insert a round in the chamber withour firing it. If you hadn't been counting shots, you would have been led to believe that the mag was empty.

If the mag wasn't empty, you could recock and fire sending another round into the back of the one in the breech causing a jam because the action did not eject the round in the breech. If the mag was indeed empty (and you checked this by pulling back the action) you were then holding a loaded cocked firearm without knowing it.

And yes you should also check the breech. I'm just pointing out that an inexperienced shooter could easily make this mistake, and in my view that made the firearm unsafe and I got rid of it.

btw, my preferred method of ejecting a stuck round was with a small screwdriver. The breech allowed for this, but I can see how some may be harder to reach in this way.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

Without disagreeing with the last two stanzas there DvS, I have to say that saying that "far to much delegating of safety issues take place" (sic) is really only something you could say if (s)he knew what they were doing in the first place, in which case odds are this thread wouldn't have been started at all.

Hello Sparks,
I was not very clear about what i meant by this,
but it was late last night,
I was not referring to Courtlough,
I have only been there once,
about five years ago shooting clays.

Just the general approach taken,
by many people in target shooting sports,
that safety is the responsibility of the Range officer,
and they switch of their own personal responsibility,
and attempt to excuse lapses and brain farts on,
the Range officer didnt tell me, or make that clear.

In relation to the OP,
they did what any shooter should when faced with such a problem,
figured out the safest way to resolve it and did so,
shooting and life in general,
throws up things you have never had to deal with before,
a common sense approach usually works in both.

Even I don't claim to know everything!









I know hard to believe but true:D

Dvs.

Vegeta

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam

I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.

I do not fire this round.

I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

rrpc

civdef wrote:

Damn straight. A safe shooter shouldn't need assistance to clear a simple jam.

Sometimes it's not that simple Civdef. As I pointed out in my previous post, a change in ammo could result in a misfire where none were encountered previously. If you didn't have the right tools with you, you would need assistance and all the time you are holding a firearm in an unsafe condition.

Regardless of whether it's a club or a commercial range, there should always be a RO on hand to make sure that nobody does anything stupid, and to provide assistance should anything go wrong.

jaycee

Vegeta wrote:

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam
I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.
I do not fire this round.
I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

On a bolt action rifle ...
Lift the bolt handle and open the bolt ..this will eject the round.
On a 10-22 ..
Pull back on the cocking handle .

Others may vary

Sparks

Ah, with you now DvS. And yes, I'd have to agree in general (though in specific cases, like in DURC - or other ranges that take in newbies with no experience - with new shooters, I'd say the RO not only has far more responsibility but needs to have it).

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

Ok i don't think you get me.

I am not talking about a misfire or a jam

I put one round in the gun, it goes into the breech/barrel.

I do not fire this round.

I now want to remove the round.

How would you do this??

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

I find that very odd indeed.

Obviously not all semi-autos work like that though. Especially not shotguns.

There must be some delay between pulling the trigger and the round firing if you have to wait for the action to move forward.

rrpc

Vegeta wrote:

I find that very odd indeed.

Obviously not all semi-autos work like that though. Especially not shotguns.

Nor pistiols, but in the case of the pistol, you have to reciprocate the entire body, which extends past the back of the gun when it does. Not a very safe thing to have happen on a rifle when your head is right behind the bolt. Shotguns have a different system, but this requires the action to be well forward of the normal position of a rifle breech which would have the effect of shortening the effective barrel length or making it too long for practical purposes.

The system in use in semi auto rifles is also used in a lot of full auto firearms. It's very simple, and effective. Obviously in a full auto, the bolt just continues to reciprocate as long as you hold the trigger.

There must be some delay between pulling the trigger and the round firing if you have to wait for the action to move forward.

Yes, there is a delay, but you get used to it. It's a tradeoff between that delay and the speed of a reload.

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it.

I may be incorrect, but this sounds to me like a gun that 'fires from an open bolt'. I was always under the impression that this is much more a feature of sub-machine guns than 'civilian' semi-automatics.
Some info- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_bolt

Of the three semi-automatics currently in my possession (Walther G22, .22lr; Beratta 302, 12g; CZ-75 TS, 9mm), all fire from a closed bolt/action, and they all have extractors.
Every one of them will load/eject dummy and live rounds for as long as I care to manually cycle the action.
I don't know of any conventional semi-automatics that fire from an open bolt, and/or don't have an extractor.

RyderCup, my apologies if I've missed it somewhere, but what make/model of gun are we talking about here?

.

CJhaughey

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

This is firing from an open bolt, not a closed bolt like most S/A shotguns and rifles.
A closed bolt gas operated semi auto functions like this:
When you pull the bolt back it cocks the firing pin and continues back down the receiver collecting the next cartridge on its way, it then pushes the cartridge home and in the process the extractor claw slips over the rim of the case.
There is also a locking mechanism that engages the top of the receiver to prevent the bolt blowing back under recoil and until the chamber pressure has dropped to a safe level.
When the trigger is pulled the gas operates the piston in the chamber and pushes the bolt backwards as the bolt cycles rearward the case is pulled back from the chamber and it usually strikes an ejection post in the rear of the receiver which pushes the case out the ejection port.

Vegeta

CJhaughey wrote:

This is firing from an open bolt, not a closed bolt like most S/A shotguns and rifles.
A closed bolt gas operated semi auto functions like this:
When you pull the bolt back it cocks the firing pin and continues back down the receiver collecting the next cartridge on its way, it then pushes the cartridge home and in the process the extractor claw slips over the rim of the case.
There is also a locking mechanism that engages the top of the receiver to prevent the bolt blowing back under recoil and until the chamber pressure has dropped to a safe level.
When the trigger is pulled the gas operates the piston in the chamber and pushes the bolt backwards as the bolt cycles rearward the case is pulled back from the chamber and it usually strikes an ejection post in the rear of the receiver which pushes the case out the ejection port.

I have only ever experienced closed bolt firearms

CJhaughey

Vegeta wrote:

I have only ever experienced closed bolt firearms

Same as that, submachine guns were never really good for ducks or deer IMHO:D

oldzed

I do believe rrpc has never owned or shot a 1022 as if he had he would not have written that rubbish on how to operate them , there was never a 1022 made that fired off an open bolt and very few guns of any kind now fire off an open bolt even sub machine guns , an open bolt will have a very adverse affect on acuracy and just is not used anymore , old sub guns like the gustav and the uzi used this system but all modern sub guns including the mp5 all fire off a closed bolt, a properly set up 1022 can equal any factory sporter rifle at 50m, I can shoot .5 minute of angle at 50 m with both my 1710 hb and 1022 (macmillan fibreglass stock , volquartsen internals and brown precision barrell) my 1022 is an extremely safe and accurate rifle , And this talk of leaving rounds in the chamber is just crap, if it jams clear it ( safely of course), christ its no big deal, god help you if you ever get a squib load in a centrefire rifle

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

there was never a 1022 made that fired off an open bolt

There is however a conversion for the 10/22 that will convert it to an open bolt fully automatic model.

a properly set up 1022 can equal any factory sporter rifle at 50m

Yeeees.... but can a properly set up 10/22 equal a properly set up sporter rifle or a properly set up target rifle?
Heck, more of interest to your average shooter on a limited budget, can a stock factory 10/22 equal a stock factory sporter or target rifle?

I can shoot .5 minute of angle at 50 m with ... my 1022 (macmillan fibreglass stock , volquartsen internals and brown precision barrell)

Hmmm. Nice rifle, but if you've replaced the stock, the barrel and the internals, is it really the same rifle you bought from the factory?

if it jams clear it ( safely of course), christ its no big deal, god help you if you ever get a squib load in a centrefire rifle

Yes, it's not a big deal. If you know what you're doing. Which is rather the point of this thread, no?

civdef

If a person does not know how to handle a misfire, they are not competent shooters, and should be treated as such, ie only shooting under very close individual supervision and instruction. This is not necessarily how clubs should need to treat all their members.

RRPC's understanding of how a semi works does indeed seem deficient re open/closed bolts.

Some of the match barrel semis - like aftermarket 10/22 ones, have tight chambers that make extraction of an unfired round difficult. The answer is to either fit a stronger extractor, or carry a suitable tool for the job, like a penknife.

If I go shooting, I make it my business to carry a few tools, screwdrivers, allen keys etc, for any adjustments that prove necessary - it has made my life easier on many occasions.

Sparks

Agreed civ, but there's a distinction that must be made between competent and safe. Otherwise you're saying that every newbie is unsafe, and if they're unsafe, then the law says they can't have a firearms licence...

Sparks

Besides which, I've seen a number of "competent" shooters who've been around for years and know their firearms inside and out, and who still aren't "safe".

civdef

We're not talking about general safety here, it's a far more narrow topic of having a shooter who does not how to operate their firearm. A person who doesn't know how to work their gun should only be shooting in the context of close personal supervision & instruction in order to develop the necessary skills.

A competent person does not need that level of supervision.

This is the sort of thing I would like to see improved somehow. Maybe ranges should have a policy of checking shooters out more formally - like is currently the case on several ranges with pistol shooters - where anyone looking to shoot must pass a series of basic tests on safety.

You should not have a licence for a firearm if you cannot use it properly.

oldzed

so rrpc owned an open bolt 1022 machinegun ?? I doubt it
can a properly set up 1022 equal a properly set up up sporter , yes in my opinion
can a stock ruger 1022 equal a stock factory sporter such as a brno .22 - yes if you spend 15€ on it and change the sear and spring otherwise no as the stock trigger is a dog,
Can a 1022 equal a target rifle?if you mean an issf rifle and both are bolted to a table no, but mine has beaten target rifles in benchrest competitions (a lot depends on the wind and the shooter of course)and while you can shoot bench, gallery,minirifle and sils with a 1022 you would be doing well to shoot a 1500 competitively with your issf target rifle.
Is it the same rifle i bought, yes I bought it this way.
as to the point of the thread all im doing is defending the reputation of the 1022 as the great little gun it is ,
and yes people should know what they are doing or have access to someone who does ,no argument there

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

so rrpc owned an open bolt 1022 machinegun?

I doubt it since it'd be illegal in Ireland. My point was that there's a modification for just about anything you want to do with a 10/22 - that seems to be the biggest feature of the rifle. (Which is a dodgy feature if you ask me. "Buy our rifle, it can be changed in to absolutely everything else!" "Er, why doesn't anyone want to use it as is then?")

can a properly set up 1022 equal a properly set up up sporter , yes in my opinion

Somehow I doubt that. Assuming equally skilled shooters on an indoor range so that environmental conditions don't play into it, I don't think you're going to beat a properly set up bolt-action rifle with a 10/22. The 10/22 just wasn't designed for that purpose.

Can a 1022 equal a target rifle? ... mine has beaten target rifles in benchrest competitions (a lot depends on the wind and the shooter of course)

All due respect oldzed, I think that says more about your shooting ability than it does about the 10/22!

as to the point of the thread all im doing is defending the reputation of the 1022 as the great little gun it is ,

I don't know about that Oldzed. I'm a fan of buying a finished product, rather than something that needs more money sunk into aftermarket doodads to shoot straight. I'd imagine it's more than accurate enough for several events and the semi-auto nature makes it able to enter other events like gallery rifle that bolt-action stuff would be left out of, but to me it's the Citroen 2CV of the shooting world. Yes, it'll get you from A to B, yes it's a classic design by virtue of sheer longevity, and there's certainly plenty worse out there - but there's also much, much better out there.

shc1

One of the best tools I’ve found for removing un-fired 22 long rifle rounds is a good old Swiss Army knife. (with the can opener option)

With the firearm pointed downrange, remove the bolt or lock it open. Gently work the brass out of the chamber. Remember when you’re working with rim fire you are working with the primer.
Check the barrel afterwards to be sure it’s clear.
Don’t wait until you get home. That is essentially walking around with a loaded gun. Don’t let that accident happen.
I might sound like a smart @zz but I’m a safe smart @zz. :-)

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

I doubt it since it'd be illegal in Ireland. My point was that there's a modification for just about anything you want to do with a 10/22 - that seems to be the biggest feature of the rifle. (Which is a dodgy feature if you ask me. "Buy our rifle, it can be changed in to absolutely everything else!" "Er, why doesn't anyone want to use it as is then?")

Lots of folks do use it as is Sparks ,from folks in nthe Amazon jungle to Eskimoes.Without ever modifying it in any way at all.Same as plenty of folks have used the Govt 1911 45ACP as is and never modified it or others have turned theirs into total space guns.It is just a US phenomen that you can take a pretty cheap Wal mart gun and tinker with it to tune it into whatever you want.Called Customiseing

I don't know about that Oldzed. I'm a fan of buying a finished product, rather than something that needs more money sunk into aftermarket doodads to shoot straight. I'd imagine it's more than accurate enough for several events and the semi-auto nature makes it able to enter other events like gallery rifle that bolt-action stuff would be left out of, but to me it's the Citroen 2CV of the shooting world. Yes, it'll get you from A to B, yes it's a classic design by virtue of sheer longevity, and there's certainly plenty worse out there - but there's also much, much better out there.

Well to use the car gun analogy.You Sparks would buy the Ferrari,it is a finished product and well designed[???] and needs nothing added.BUT what happens when it hits an irish pothole and rips out it's oil pan??Fly in a team of ferrari mechanics to fix it.Whilst you can push your 2CV down to the junkyard and cannabilise an oil pan of a wreck.It becomes a question of if ya have to get someplace,do you want to leave in style and hope to get there,or leave and definately get there??? IE if I take your fancy target rifle out on a polar expedition or into the jungle,drag,drop and generally rough house it,clean it occasionally by dunking it in a gallon of petrol and then lube by dunking in a barrel of used crankcase oil.[Std cleaning of some guns in 3rd world cdountries].Will there be much left?????Horses for courses an all that.

hillybilly

If you were in Bisley and your round get,s jammed in the chamber your firearm can not be removed from the fireing line until the bullet is disloged .This has to be done by a range officer. If he cant remove the bullet your pride and joy is opened with a con saw and rendered safe.

oldzed

oldzed wrote:

so rrpc owned an open bolt 1022 machinegun ?? I doubt it

sparks , you misquoted me , My sentence is in its complete form is above , I know he didnt own one ,only a complete muppet would do that to a gun ( and im not saying he is one ) ,my point was he had no idea how the gun operated so that it was rubbish for him to suggest that he had owned several, he may as well have said theres no need to close the bolt on a bolt action rifle as it would close itself when you pulled the trigger.
as to you being a fan of a rifle that doesnt need aftermarket doodahs to shoot straight, you would be a rare one if you have never changed anything on your rifle , what about sights?stocks? slings, triggers . issf shooters trick the nads out of their rifles and theres nothing wrong with that,and im not even going to mention the bondage gear, and batch testing etc
the 1022 is a great platform to build on and if people have the money at the start they can buy an olympic arms or a volquartsen ,if not they can buy a bogstandard 1022 and improve it as time and money allow , its no different to buying a a bog standard remy 700 and rebarrelling it and restocking it and changing the trigger.
as to there being much better out there , there is , thats why I have plenty other rifles but the 1022 is the most versatile of the lot and thats why i love it.I can enter more competitions with it than anything else in the gun room and that makes it a great piece of kit
sparks its the same old argument from you .ie the only shooting that counts is issf where as I and most others enjoy a broad range of shooting disciplines and i dont look down on anyone elses. Your argument is like a blinkered martial artist thinking that their art is the only one that counts when they should be out trying everything thats there instead of preaching hollow words to an audience that doesnt care .
thats 102 posts from me in 2 years. I would love to have the time to get in more pissing contests with you but i dont . get out there and shoot, gallery rifle ,wa1500, sils, ipsc, f class , go shoot a nice deer , go live a little and get out from behind that pc, it might broaden your mind a bit.
I dont know you and i reckon your heart is in the right place when it comes to shooting , but you really can bug the sxxt out of people,
Im looking forward to reading your responses.........not

Kryten

rrpc wrote:

That's not how semis work Vegeta. You insert mag, pull back the action by means of a cocking handle on the side (it's like a bolt with a stubby handle that's spring-loaded). The action stays back until the trigger is pulled whence it delivers the round into the breech and fires it. The recoil then reciprocates the bolt which goes through the same manoeuver again, recocking itself for the next trigger pull.

Not True,
Most semiautomatics fire from a closed bolt, and are fitted with an extractor and ejector. Tell us the model of semi which uses your description. Some full autos do fire from an open bolt position, ie Gustaf SMG, Bren LMG, GPMG and heavy barreled version of the Steyr, and lots more....
But for .22semis most fire from a closed bolt.

RyderCup

Sparks wrote:

Without disagreeing with the last two stanzas there DvS, I have to say that saying that "far to much delegating of safety issues take place" (sic) is really only something you could say if (s)he knew what they were doing in the first place, in which case odds are this thread wouldn't have been started at all.

I always said that I would never be drawn into a discussion with you Sparks because you are impossible but just this once let me ask you - how can you draw that conclusion when if you read through the previous posts you will see that I did exactly what was suggested, I extracted the round and I didn't put anyone in danger by leaving the range with an unsafe gun. Did you read the posts.

If say for example your son was in Courtlough shooting beside me and he asked for assistance and I told him to get lost (which is what the staff member more or less told me), would you think that that was appropriate, or by any chance would you think that I could maybe give him a hand like a reasonable person would, in a nice sportsmanlike fashion.

Dvs wrote:

I understand what you are saying,
but I don't see your point, as I would be of the opinion,
that you should be able to sort out a problem such as this on your own.

I have un-jammed different types of guns on a number of occassions. I would say I am as competent at it as most people without being so cock sure as to be a danger to myself. My point was that I think the staff could be a little bit more helpful not the unjamming of the firearm. I was able to unjam the firearm and I had the tools I needed with me to do so. I didn't like being rushed into doing it.

Dvs wrote:

What if you were a hunter, out and about ?
Nobody else would be there to sort it out for you...........

I do hunt and of course you need to be able to deal with these issues on your own if you hunt, but people go to ranges to learn and I personally woudl have no problem giving someone a dig out if they needed it. For all that staff member knew I might not have a clue how to unjam that firearm but he was still happy to not only let me at it, but on top of that to pressurize me to do it quickly. And I might add his tone was crap considering I was a paying customer. If you went into a pub and the barman was ignorant to you - would you keep going in.

mcguiver

Don't our threads go all over the place??

Proper response by a responsible range employee would be "hold on, keep the firearm pointed at the target and I'll come down to you, and show you what to do".

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

as to you being a fan of a rifle that doesnt need aftermarket doodahs to shoot straight, you would be a rare one if you have never changed anything on your rifle

True enough. But my rifles shot just as well out of the box as they do now.

sparks its the same old argument from you .ie the only shooting that counts is issf

To me, ISSF is the most challanging discipline I can do, and so it's what I think of when I think of target shooting. I don't apologise for that oldzed. I also don't - and never did - expect everyone to agree with it. It does not mean I "look down on" other disciplines, thank you very much, and I'm rather tired of people saying so despite evidence to the contrary. As to doing a lot of different kind of events to have fun, if I wasn't having fun doing ISSF stuff I wouldn't do ISSF stuff. Me, I want to win a World Cup in one discipline, not shoot in twenty different disciplines. Depth, not breadth. To each their own...

Besides which, I notice that those saying we should embrace all the shooting disciplines together are pretty bloody quick to look down on other disciplines themselves! Does noone else think airgun shooting gets looked down on by smallbore shooters who get looked down on by fullbore? And I'm not even going to mention Airsoft and Paintball...

I dont know you and i reckon your heart is in the right place when it comes to shooting , but you really can bug the sxxt out of people,

Which I've always regarded as being their problem to be honest. Besides which, I can put hand on heart and say I've never ever acted against another sport in this country. I know quite a lot of others who can't do that who I bug the castlemaine out of and I'm rather happy with that state of affairs in all honesty.

RyderCup wrote:

I always said that I would never be drawn into a discussion with you Sparks because you are impossible

Come now RC, clearly I'm possible, I'm sitting right here... :rolleyes: And it's nice to know I have such a little fan club out there, really it is.

how can you draw that conclusion when if you read through the previous posts you will see that I did exactly what was suggested, I extracted the round and I didn't put anyone in danger by leaving the range with an unsafe gun. Did you read the posts.

Yes. Did you read mine? I happened to be agreeing with your original post there. (The RO in Courtlough had no way to know that you knew what to do, so his not coming out to help was wrong. I thought DvS was saying that was fine because the shooter ought to sort out such problems - as his later post cleared up, that wasn't what he was saying).

civdef

And I'm not even going to mention Airsoft and Paintball...

Crhist, I don't even regard people who take part in those as human....