Any thoughts on practical shotgun

civdef

WHat are the new regs regarding rifles?

Sparks

Same as for shotguns but with a different length limit civ. You can't shorten the barrel below 19" except as part of a repair job which will leave it with a barrel length over 19" when you're done. Says nothing about rifles which come from the factory with 16" barrel lengths like the 10/22 compact rifle model.

civdef

Where are those numbers from?

Edit, having seeked and founded.

CJB

65.—The following section is inserted after section 12 of the Fire- 30
arms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990:
“Shortening
barrel of shotgun
or rifle.
12A.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person
who shortens the barrel of—

(a) a shot-gun to a length of less than 61
centimetres, or 35

(b) a rifle to a length of less than 50
centimetres,

is guilty of an offence.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

They certainly provide examples of shotguns whose barrels were designed to be less than the 24" the CJB drafters intended to be a limit; but that doesn't mean their existance would overturn that intent - more likely, they'd just be ruled to be restricted and then you'd lose them because you couldn't provide sufficient security to ensure they weren't stolen and used to hold up a post office. Sure, some people will have the time and the will to go to court to get the licence and they might even succeed - but that'll mean individual licences in numbers small enough to discount as abberations from the DoJ's point of view.

Be kind of difficult for the DOJ to argue that point in court,if anyone can prove that they have been here from the foundation of the State,and have never been used in any crime.Well,maybe shooting Black&Tans or Free Staters or Republicans depending on ownership.Restriction does not automatically mean confiscation, or loss just applying to the Cheif comissioner for the liscense.He is now answerable in the DC as well,so he will have to have some justification to refuse a liscense for a firearm that was in theory illegal under the previous act,but was liscensed no problem.Ditto with the Rugers as well.Back to the drawing board for the DOJ or else a freeze on all liscensed rugers,or an irish solution to an irish problem,ignore and continue as before.Which one will it be???

Sparks

Be kind of difficult for the DOJ to argue that point in court

Not really.

"Your honour, I turned down Mr.Murphy's application for a firearms licence for that firearm on the grounds of public safety. As your honour knows from watching the news, shotguns with their barrels sawn off for the purposes of concealment are such a problem in gun crime today that the Minister himself saw fit to state in the legislation that the practise of shortening barrels beyond a certain point was an offence. While Mr.Murphy did not shorten the barrel himself, nor did any Irish gunsmith, the fact remains that the barrel is now less than the legal limit and as such, this firearm is a prime target for any burglar looking to steal a firearm for use in criminal activities. As such, I advised Mr.Murphy that under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 4, Subsection 2(d) that I could not grant him a firearms certificate for the firearm in question unless he could demonstrate that the accomodation for the firearm in question was secure against a determined attack by a burglar during the response time of the Gardai in his area to such a call, which is estimated could be as high as several hours in the event of there being a call to Ryans's Pub on the far side of BallyNoWhere. I further stated that in the event that suitable secure storage could be arranged, that I would also be imposing, under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 4, Subsection 2(g), a further condition to the granting of his licence, that the barrel of the shotgun be extended to 24 inches or a replacement barrel 24 inches in length be fitted to the shotgun. It was at this point that Mr.Murphy became irritated and began tearing out his hair in handfuls and seeing as how he was displaying intemperate behaviour I notified him that this disqualified him from applying for a licence under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 8, Subsection 1(b). And that was when Mr.Murphy did proceed to beat me about the head with his application form while abusing me verbally, your honour."



Okay, so I'm being facitious at the end, but the thing is, the rest is perfectly legal.

Clare gunner

First off you address a District justice as Judge nowadays.We have finally gotton over abit of our hangover of adhering to English law customs .Now if Barristers can stop dressing like transvestites,we will be getting further.

First off is Mr Murphy a major threat of being robbed of his gun than mr Smith down the road? Any firearm would be a prime target of burgalary irrespective if it has a 12 in or 36ins barrel.All the difference between legality and illegality is 10 mins with a hacksaw.

Second does mr Murpthy have secure storage as per a requirement of the aforesaid act and a prerequsition of granting of liscenses?The super would be more advised to suggest better security to Mr Murphy for his security of storage,if they are worried about their response time.
Also the police response time is irrelvelant to the matter in question as we are here to rule on wether mr Murphy has the right to appeal a decision made by the local superintendant of adding a prerequsition on his firearms cert.
In which a family heirloom that was used in our nations struggle for freedom should be vandalised and the value destroyed by adding an unnecessary attachment.The weapon has been liscensed by the Gardai to his family since 1925 without any ado.
Has Mr Murphy been ever a threat to the public,ever been in trouble no,so this point is irrvelant as well.However upon him assaulting a police officer in the course of his duties I find Mr Murphy was provoked beyond all reasonable restraint by the officers in question and fine him therefore 20 Euros in the poor box,and dismiss the superintendants application for a restriction.Case dismissed.
Ok,very simplified,but using an excuse that a gun is a more shorter andthe owner is living in the boonies is a very weak arguement to put a restriction on it.Hell,maybe the judge would say well if he has to rely on himself before the police self admittadly respond to his cry for help.He is perfectly justified in wanting a "sawn off shotgun".Has happened.

FLAG

Folks:

We sough clarification on this issue during the drafting of the bill, as we were aware of the fact that many rifles have barrels shorter than the length specified: We circualted the following brief to the SSAI:
"The actual effect of the proposal relates only to the unlawful shortening of a rifle barrel to <50 Cm, it is the act of shortening that is the subject of the legislative section.

Factory rifles remain unaffected, one needs to read the whole section to see the background, lawful possession or shortening by a gunsmith is unaffected."

I trust that this clarifies the matter.

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

Clare gunner

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

[/QUOTE]

Well FLAG could you please clarify then why the 16.5ins guns are somtimes for sale with no problems and have a liscense and the Gaurds have no problem liscensing them??

spideog7

Just a thought here now but how does this law apply to interchangeable barrels...for example the Remington 870 has many different barrels that can be changed in a matter of seconds, including a slug barrel...not sure on its exact dimensions (think its longer than 2ft but lets say for sake of arguement it ain't).
Is it illegel to possess the barrel even if it isn't on the gun...never was and never will be (at least not while anyone is lookin' ).
As far as the local super knows its just a length of pipe sittin in the corner of the gunsafe ( "in case someone tries to steal me guns Garda" )
:rolleyes:

Clare gunner

ASFIK the Remmy slug is 24ins as well.
To answer your question;proably Yes.As I said before some districts want the spare barrels stamped with the nos of the reciver,some dont.You can do this yourself BTW.If they found it with the seial no stamped on it.Goodbye,as it is an illegal firearm.Without the nos ,what are you doing with a short barrel below legal length??ASFIK the only way to posses a 16in here is get one pre regd Winchester antiques.Honestly under 24ins,you dont need it for practical shotgun.Unless you are think of using it for home defence,then you need to learn tactics of using a shotgun in a home defence situation.Those tactics will allow a 24in barrel.If you want a short shotgun,get a pistol grip/folder with a 24in barrel.18ins and less is really only necessary for use in a very cramped place like a car,hiding it under your jacket,either then you are LEO/BG or a stickup man.If you are the first two,it wont be too much problem to own a short barrel.If you are of the last category,you wont care.

civdef

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

Under what act?

Genuine question, I never was able to find any provision to this effect. The firearms Act 1971 mentions shotguns with a barrel of less than 24", but does not prohibit them.

Sparks

The definition in the older acts of a "sporting firearm" that included shotguns with a barrel length over 24" confused lots of people for years - myself included - but the thing was that there was never any real legal weight attached to it. I guess that the idea was that only certificates for sporting firearms would be issued, but that was never put into law, just into practice. But no, there wasn't any Irish law against shotguns with a barrel length of less than 24". Nor, technically, is there now - you just can't modify a shotgun to be less than that barrel length now. If it was made that way, according to the law, it's fine.

Actually, we should say that that's according to the law from Nov.1 onwards - all this is being based off the new licencing parts of the Firearms Acts and they don't kick in until that point, according to the Minister.

Hezz700

Hi Lads,

Not that its much of an input but,a couple of years back i had a Fabarm Eurolion MK1 with a factory 24" barrall. Not the same thing i know, but it was never an issue with the local FO. It was a great gun in a hide(when it did,nt Jam):D

Hezz