Who is liable?

bmoferrall

I left my car in for a regular service 10 days ago. I also asked them to install an uprated differential which I had purchased.
While extracting one of four stubborn bolts in preparation for installation of the diff, the gearbox casing cracked (the gearbox was in pwo when I left it in). Because of the type of alloy used welding wasn't an option. A new gearbox is now required (stripping/rebuilding and fitting of a new casing isn't recommended apparently).

When I was first told I automatically assumed the garage would pay for the extra costs, perhaps with garage insurance. However, the garage effectively said that I would have to pay for the new gearbox and any extra labour. At best, I would be given an 10% discount on the cost of the gearbox. Surprisingly, an Alfa specialist whom I trust seemed to think the garage was within their rights to charge me in these circumstances. I'm expecting the car to be ready today or tommorrow. As yet, I haven't raised the issue of payment with the garage (will cost an extra EUR 2000); I'd prefer them to complete the work satisfactorily before discussing it. I lodged a complaint with SIMI this morning.

Has anyone had a similar experience and, if so, what was the outcome? Do garages have insurance to cover scenarios like this? Are they entitled to charge me for the new part and extra labour? Naturally, you would expect them to try and get me to pay, even if they had insurance cover.

By way of analogy, if I hire someone to clean my windows and they break one of them, I would expect them (or their insurance) to cover the breakage.

WizZard

Logically, I would expect the garage to cover the cost since the car was in their care when the accident happened.

However, I've found that in Real Life™ logic doesn't always play a part. Lodging a timely comlaint with SIMI is the first step. However, before proceeding further I would ask the garage to cover the cost since it was their mistake.
Wait til you pick the car up before you say it to them if you like, "just in case".

bushy...

Probably not used to extracting bolts from alloy casings,not enough technique ,bit too rough=broken casing. If the casing was cracked/hairlined already(easy to find out) then it'd be your problem to sort.

The_Conductor

Many many years ago my father's car was in a not dissimilar situation. The garage refused to release the car until such time as the work had been paid for (despite the fact that the work was only necessary as a result of their actions). In the end he paid up unhappily (and never visited that garage again). I do not know if there is a legal precedent for this.

S.

Henry Ford III

If they broke the gearbox, surely they are liable?

I'd get a good Solicitor hired, pronto.

bmoferrall

bushy... wrote:

Probably not used to extracting bolts from alloy casings,not enough technique ,bit too rough=broken casing. If the casing was cracked/hairlined already(easy to find out) then it'd be your problem to sort.

Apparently, the engineer in question has considerable experience installing diffs in cars/4x4s. He has even recently installed one in the exact same type of car as mine.

When I called last Friday week expecting the car to be ready, he sounded stressed out, saying he'd had a particularly bad week in the garage. He said he'd work on my car over the weekend when the garage was closed. Perhaps the damage had already been done at that stage and my car was the cause of the stress, or perhaps the stress caused him to become impatient and careless. Who knows? Anyone that's worked on cars knows the frustration in dealing with stubborn bolts.

I did consider the possibility that there might be an existing hairline, but the garage presumably examined the casing for this and never mentioned it to me.

bmoferrall

smccarrick wrote:

Many many years ago my father's car was in a not dissimilar situation. The garage refused to release the car until such time as the work had been paid for (despite the fact that the work was only necessary as a result of their actions). In the end he paid up unhappily (and never visited that garage again). I do not know if there is a legal precedent for this.

S.

That's my fear. I'll probably pay up initially just to get the car back; hopefully, SIMI will then be able to persuade to garage to partly or fully reimburse me (SIMI wait 10 days for a response). Failing that, I will probably take Henry's advice and get a solicitor involved. The latter option is difficult for me because I've become quite friendly with the engineer in question.

WizZard

It's not the engineer/mechanic who decides whether or not to reimburse you.
It would be garage policy and/or manager's decision. Although the mechanic would have to admit to the garage that the accident was as a result of his actions.

In any case I would take him aside and let him know if you are going to go the legal route (after 10 days if needs be). And let him know that it is not anything against him.

Anyway, this kind of thing is why insurance is required for garages... IMHO

cormie

you should make a "hypothetical" post in the legal discussion forum (be sure to read the charter and phrase your question as a discussion point and not looking for advice or you'll be banned and the thread locked). This is probably outlined in the law in black and white and a simple print out of a page from irishstatutebook.ie would prevent a load of hassle from the garage if they can see they are liable. This would probably fall into the same thing as the likes of leaving clothes into a dry cleaner, plumber bursting a pipe, window washer breaking a window.

They are SURELY responsible, I hope the law states that too!

bmoferrall

WizZard wrote:

It's not the engineer/mechanic who decides whether or not to reimburse you.
It would be garage policy and/or manager's decision. Although the mechanic would have to admit to the garage that the accident was as a result of his actions.

In any case I would take him aside and let him know if you are going to go the legal route (after 10 days if needs be). And let him know that it is not anything against him.

Anyway, this kind of thing is why insurance is required for garages... IMHO

The engineer/mechanic in question is also the owner of the garage. Just spoke to him and car won't be ready till wednesday (making it 2 weeks in total). They will probably have a letter from SIMI by then so it will be interesting to see what happens when I go in (i.e. I may be in for a frosty reception!).

bmoferrall

cormie wrote:

you should make a "hypothetical" post in the legal discussion forum (be sure to read the charter and phrase your question as a discussion point and not looking for advice or you'll be banned and the thread locked). This is probably outlined in the law in black and white and a simple print out of a page from irishstatutebook.ie would prevent a load of hassle from the garage if they can see they are liable. This would probably fall into the same thing as the likes of leaving clothes into a dry cleaner, plumber bursting a pipe, window washer breaking a window.

They are SURELY responsible, I hope the law states that too!

Thanks for suggestion Cormie. I may do that later.
I believe some members on this forum are in the trade, so I was hoping they'd know about garage insurance in general.

WizZard

bmoferrall wrote:

The engineer/mechanic in question is also the owner of the garage. Just spoke to him and car won't be ready till wednesday (making it 2 weeks in total). They will probably have a letter from SIMI by then so it will be interesting to see what happens when I go in (i.e. I may be in for a frosty reception!).

Well I'd write off that relationship so

Anyway, it's not exactly "good terms" if he won't admit that he was in the wrong...

MercMad

I managed a service department in the trade for a good few years. Garage insurance basically covers whatever THEY decide to claim for !

If they damage a car they weigh up the amount on their excess and decide what to do !

However I think in this case you would surely need to prove negligence before deciding that the mechanic was at fault. Basically he didn't put the gearbox together, he was acting under your instructions to take it apart and fit new parts to it. Is it really HIS fault that something broke ? He can prove his qualifications and experience, he wouldn't be where he is today without lots of satisfied customers !

This is not the same as "guntering" something back toegether, or denting a car in the carpark. When you leave a car for a standard service and the oil filter wont come off, or whatever, and it takes the guy two extar hours to remove it, should HE pay for it ?? It your car and you have toi put up with whatever it throws at you once its outside of warranty !

In my opinion there is no question that anyone else but the owner should pay for extra work/parts that arise, once there has been no negligence !

However.........such similar things did happen, and happen to all garages, and we would generally go a LONG way towards reducing the costs. We would never use secondhand parts, but we would sell the parts at significantly reduced price and split the labour 50/50. That was our policy and customers in general went away satisfied and repeatedley came back to us because of the open way things were explained and the willingness to help that was shown.

You could investigate claiming from you own Insurance BTW !

bmoferrall

Thanks Mercmad. This is exactly what I was looking for.

MercMad wrote:

I managed a service department in the trade for a good few years. Garage insurance basically covers whatever THEY decide to claim for !
If they damage a car they weigh up the amount on their excess and decide what to do !

Yep, I wouldn't expect them to offer to use their insurance.

However I think in this case you would surely need to prove negligence before deciding that the mechanic was at fault. Basically he didn't put the gearbox together, he was acting under your instructions to take it apart and fit new parts to it. Is it really HIS fault that something broke ? He can prove his qualifications and experience, he wouldn't be where he is today without lots of satisfied customers !

This is not the same as "guntering" something back toegether, or denting a car in the carpark. When you leave a car for a standard service and the oil filter wont come off, or whatever, and it takes the guy two extar hours to remove it, should HE pay for it ?? It your car and you have toi put up with whatever it throws at you once its outside of warranty !

In my opinion there is no question that anyone else but the owner should pay for extra work/parts that arise, once there has been no negligence !

I have great sympathy with this view. It's essentially what another (very trusted) Alfa mechanic said. Effectively, it would be impossible to prove negligence in this case, even if it could be shown that there was no existing crack in the casing.

However.........such similar things did happen, and happen to all garages, and we would generally go a LONG way towards reducing the costs. We would never use secondhand parts, but we would sell the parts at significantly reduced price and split the labour 50/50. That was our policy and customers in general went away satisfied and repeatedley came back to us because of the open way things were explained and the willingness to help that was shown.

This is essentially how I see it; It's also what I suggested to SIMI. I broached the subject of sharing or discounting labour costs last week, but without success. All I got was the promise of a 10% discount on the part, which barely dents the overall cost. He really ought to take account of the fact that I'm a potential long-term customer, and may be looking for future labour-intensive customisation work, so a good-will gesture might be in his best interests. Obviously, I would be happy to publicise his good name in that event.

You could investigate claiming from you own Insurance BTW !

My premium has steadily dropped over the years (2500 to 800) so I'm loath to reverse that trend!

Rudolph Claus

I'm a potential long-term customer, and may be looking for future labour-intensive customisation work, so a good-will gesture might be in his best interests.

You should point that out to him, tell him you have a friend looking to get some similar work done to his car. You probably should have made it clear to him that you would be looking to split the costs of this 50/50 before involving the simi.

Unfortunate situation, but chances are it did just break in a genuine way.

mmenarry

Accidents can and do happen unfortunately. However, "negligence" doesn't come into a situation like this. (I deal with a lot of legislation for work, not consumer legislation admittedly, so I stand to be corrected on this)

It would "reasonably" (legal term) be expected that a competent specialist would be able to perform the job without damaging your car. A similar situation would be a windscreen replacement cracking the first time that it's put in, and receiving a bill for two windscreens & double the labour charge!

It would have been different, for example, had one of the bolts been impossible to get out half way through the job. It would then be "reasonable" for the garage to give you a buzz, explain the problem and say "I can beat it with the really big hammer, but that runs the risk of damaging the gearbox. Want me to try it? If not, you can have the car back and the bill for labour so far"

Only if there was a prior problem with the box that could not have "reasonably" been foreseen would the garage have an out.

My advice? Give the Citizens Advice Bureau ( http://www.dun-laoghaire.com/dir/cic.html ) a call, they should be able to give you better advice. You could also try the Department of Consumer Affairs ( http://www.odca.ie/ ), but they might refer you to SIMI as the "experts" in this area. I have used the DCA before (phone that couldn't be fixed after 11 attempts) and they were really helpful, advice there & then on the spot.

M.

bmoferrall

Nuttzy wrote:

You should point that out to him, tell him you have a friend looking to get some similar work done to his car. You probably should have made it clear to him that you would be looking to split the costs of this 50/50 before involving the simi.

Not sure what effect a SIMI letter will have on the outcome, but the deed is done at this stage. I may get the car before any letter arrives, in which case I'll definitely be looking for some kind of concession. He'll be well aware from previous discussions that others (here and in the UK) are interested in the outcome of the upgrade, and that the story will spread, good or bad.

Mmenarry wrote:

It would have been different, for example, had one of the bolts been impossible to get out half way through the job. It would then be "reasonable" for the garage to give you a buzz, explain the problem and say "I can beat it with the really big hammer, but that runs the risk of damaging the gearbox. Want me to try it? If not, you can have the car back and the bill for labour so far"

When I inspected the damage the offending bolt was still stuck fast. Oh to be a fly on the wall while all this transpired: "Nurse, I'm going to need that mallet after all!". Yeah, a phone call would have been great. I can only assume he wasn't in the right frame of mind for a tug-of-war.

My advice? Give the Citizens Advice Bureau a call, they should be able to give you better advice.

I've used them before for another legal issue and they're very useful.

IrishRover

I find there's always some nut or bolt that doesn't want to play ball. Sometimes taking a breather after spraying wd40 on it and coming back with a large enough breaker bar and applying the torque in a calm manner can be the difference between a sheared bolt and a successful removal!

I always wonder if it gets any easier if it's your profession. Maybe you do have bad days where the proper tool is all the way over the other side of the workshop and the thing you have in your hand now will probably get it off. Maybe you wish you had gone and got the right tool after something cracks or shears! Who knows.

I can see both sides of it though. If it's an old car and the bolt hasn't moved in over ten years maybe it would have cracked anyway. Maybe there is a fundemental weak point in the design of the gearbox casing. Any of the others with the same car ever have any issues with this gearbox casing cracking?

Would have thought he's taking short cuts getting a whole new box instead of letting you supply a new casing and transferring everything over. Of course he is though, he doesn't want to be tied down with one thing after another with your car. I bet he just wants to get it out of there and is glad for the break he has from working on it because he's got to wait for the part (new gearbox) to come in!

Somehow I doubt any mechanic is very interested in getting involved in experimental upgrades or modding like this. I think they all have enough people queueing up to get them to change their oil filters and wiper blades and I'd say they'd much rather be doing the bread and butter jobs than the labour intensive stuff like attacking stubborn bolts underneath the car.

bmoferrall

All very valid points IrishRover. I spent a month trying to persuade an Alfa specialist to do the job. Officially, he was too busy doing bread and butter stuff; unofficially, I think he feared exactly what happened in the end.
The chap who agreed to do the job intends buying the same car for track use so he would presumably have some interest in the outcome.
The car is only 4 yrs old and I've heard no reports of cracks in gearbox casings.
It was largely my choice to go with the new gearbox (though it was also his and Alfa's recommendation). I didn't want to risk further screw ups, and it only added a couple hundred euros to the cost.

IrishRover

I can see why you'd think he'd want to take more of a personal interest in it so and why you wanted to keep a good relationship with him. Seems like it's not going to be though unfortunately.

cpoh1

IrishRover wrote:

Somehow I doubt any mechanic is very interested in getting involved in experimental upgrades or modding like this. I think they all have enough people queueing up to get them to change their oil filters and wiper blades and I'd say they'd much rather be doing the bread and butter jobs than the labour intensive stuff like attacking stubborn bolts underneath the car.

Are you mad? Ask any real mechanic and the work they truly loath is the mundane day to day brake pad swap crap. Its the reason a friend of mine quit his job as a mechanic and went somewhere else. He builds autocross cars at the weekends now as a hobby instead. Any mechanic worth his salt loves to take on jobs that invlove some kind of knowledge and appreciation of the true mechanics of cars. Changing final drives, flywheels, clutches and diffs in performance cars is a pleasure when you get to take in the fruits of the labour, a much improved driving experience.

As for the original post, at the end of the day you needed a new gearbox because the garage/mechanic cracked the casing. You didnt do it, so why should you pay for it? Sure there are other variables at work here but at the end of the day you gave your car to a professional who undertook the job in the knowledge that the job could be undertaken successfully by him. He failed so why should you be responsible?

Id be straight to my solicitor, even just to get some initial legal advice as to where you stand on this matter.

Signpost

did you sign a disclaimer when giving them the car? Could be like NCT etc where you have to grin and bear what ever happens while it is in their possession! Should get legal advice thou because in court they could argue that the car was in sub standard condition etc and say how unroad worthy the car must have been if the bolt sheared etc... Unfortunately I'd be very surprised if they had to pay anything but if there any good they'd probably for a good 25% of costs or even all labour!

Anan1

bmoferrall -

I'm only guessing at the identities of the parties involved here, but I have the feeling that I stopped using the garage owned by the mechanic a while back as I found him, although competent, more than a touch arrogant & moody (not to mention expensive). I find your story unsurprising, and it serves only to reinforce my opinion of him. Why didn't you entrust the job to the specialist whom you trust? I've been using him for a while and would imagine he'd be much gentler when working on cars.

TempestSabre

I think this would come down to the conditions and terms of the job that was agreed. If there was talk of the casing cracking being a risk, or indeed any other unexpected situations arising and you still agreed to it then its the owners cost. However if there was no discussion of it, I would have expected the garage to ring me and ask permission to go ahead when stubborn bolts were encountered and given me the choice to risk it or not. I don't see its the mechanic's call to make if a problem is encountered that may be very expensive.

I suspect in this case the latter situation has arisen and hes just plowed on regardless, expecting you to suck up the cost. Personally I think this is a bit of sharp practise, and I'd be unhappy with it. Though I doubt you will get any satisfaction from him. I had a problem with a main dealer doing extra work unasked and refused to pay, claiming an inability to pay the cost, and they "undid" the work. To be honest I don't think they did it in the first place, and I think I caught them out when I refused to pay it...

I this case you obviously need the work done. However personally I'd be unhappy with the guy doing the work, and would be tempted to tow the car elsewhere. Just so the guy doesn't profit from his sharp practise. Its all a great deal of hassle though, and the easy way out is just to get him to do it. Perhaps negotiate a better discount?

However a sharp operator isn't going to care what you do one way or another.

bmoferrall

Anan1 wrote:

bmoferrall -

I'm only guessing at the identities of the parties involved here, but I have the feeling that I stopped using the garage owned by the mechanic a while back as I found him, although competent, more than a touch arrogant & moody (not to mention expensive). I find your story unsurprising, and it serves only to reinforce my opinion of him.

Sounds familiar. I think you've identified the garage alright! My previous experience with them was a bit unsatisfactory (unscheduled work, etc.).
A chap with the same car as mine has had a lot of custom work done, including a new diff (different design to mine). He vouches for their competence, while admitting they're expensive.

Why didn't you entrust the job to the specialist whom you trust? I've been using him for a while and would imagine he'd be much gentler when working on cars.

Believe me, I tried. When I initially asked he said to call back in a couple of weeks as he wanted to speak to a racecar engineer in the UK. I returned twice more and was told the same thing. As you know, he's (effectively) a one-man operation and extremely busy all the time, so I can understand his reluctance. (He was asked to rebuild the engine of an old Lancia Thema V8 a while back; problems with parts and tools meant the car was with him for nearly two years!) When I told him what happened he was thankful he didn't get involved after all.

bmoferrall

TempesteSabre wrote:

I think this would come down to the conditions and terms of the job that was agreed. If there was talk of the casing cracking being a risk, or indeed any other unexpected situations arising and you still agreed to it then its the owners cost. However if there was no discussion of it, I would have expected the garage to ring me and ask permission to go ahead when stubborn bolts were encountered and given me the choice to risk it or not. I don't see its the mechanic's call to make if a problem is encountered that may be very expensive.

I agree that's what should ideally have happened. If he had called me I would happily have gone in for an inspection. I may have given the go ahead anyway, but at least I would have agreed to take on the risk.

Anan1

bmoferrall wrote:

(He was asked to rebuild the engine of an old Lancia Thema V8 a while back; problems with parts and tools meant the car was with him for nearly two years!)

That car's still on the ramp, I saw it only recently! With regard to your issue, I'm no lawyer but I think that it would have been reasonable for you to assume when entrusting the mechanic with the work that he had the competence to complete it without mishap. Your solicitor will hopefully be of the same opinion. Good luck with it, in any case.

bmoferrall

Anan1 wrote:

That car's still on the ramp, I saw it only recently! With regard to your issue, I'm no lawyer but I think that it would have been reasonable for you to assume when entrusting the mechanic with the work that he had the competence to complete it without mishap. Your solicitor will hopefully be of the same opinion. Good luck with it, in any case.

Apparently the Lancia was finally ready to roll last week! Not sure if the customer has taken it off his hands yet. Lovely machine - no doubt it sounds awesome.

smash

I would have thought that the garage would be in the wrong... they brake it, they fix it! It'll be interesting to see how this works out.

IrishRover

cpoh1 wrote:

Are you mad? Ask any real mechanic and the work they truly loath is the mundane day to day brake pad swap crap. Its the reason a friend of mine quit his job as a mechanic and went somewhere else. He builds autocross cars at the weekends now as a hobby instead. Any mechanic worth his salt loves to take on jobs that invlove some kind of knowledge and appreciation of the true mechanics of cars. Changing final drives, flywheels, clutches and diffs in performance cars is a pleasure when you get to take in the fruits of the labour, a much improved driving experience.

I highlighted the key things there really. One, it's now fun for him because he gets to do the jobs he wants to do and in his own time and not against the pressures of the clock, and two, these are cars he has a personal interest in - so he knows while he is doing the work that it is for his own benefit and therefore it's in his interest to do the best job he can. That's not the case with a normal mechanic. No mechanic I've met has ever taken as much interest in my cars as I have. Only I have the patience and time to do as good a job as possible on my own cars because nobody else will actually care about them anyway near as much as I do. I know I want to take the time to attend to the details and make sure any job is done right. Why would I care so much about anyone else's car? It's just human nature.

Incidentally, they say it's a lucky man who can make his hobby his job, but I find that once a hobby becomes paid work it still manages to somehow lose its appeal. I think it's the "having to" rather than the "wanting to" that ruins it.

bmoferrall

I went in this morning to pick up the car. Coincidentally, the SIMI letter had just arrived.
The owner/mechanic was very understanding and basically let me suggest a discount that I would find satisfactory (the total bill was less than I expected anyway).
As for the work itself, I couldn't be more pleased. The car is spectacular to drive (new gearbox, clutch, lsd), so no regrets about getting a new (Quaife) diff.

Thanks to all for the comments. Perhaps surprisingly, I'm mostly sympathetic with MercMad's analysis of this.
While I was there, the mechanic was replacing an engine mount that had worn out. Again, it was a case of a steel bolt screwing into alloy material. A similar thing happened and the bolt got stuck; removing it (carefully) spoiled the threads. I could at least appreciate the difficulty he had with the gearbox casing. It seems to be a case of bad design on Alfa's part.
In spite of everything, I'm happy to vouch for the garage and the quality of the work (Alasta Autos).