Willl Fianna Fáil - Fail?

VPN

i really hope FF and the PDs get back in again, so when the whole economy collapses (which it will do, ala britain in the late 80s), they'll rightly get the blame.

I'd hate to think of someone else getting elected, the economy failing and FF/PDs getting back in later on the idea that they done so much to made ireland 'rich' .

As for the peace process, Reynolds was the man who helped get the ball rolling along with the northern republican movement (including the sdlp). theres a lot of things the irish government could currently be doing to help, specifically when it comes to media presentation of the process, but it isnt- but thats a different topic..

VPN

with the environment in the state its in, why are the government building roads and not creating a better public transport system. actually, never mind better, how about actually creating a basic public transport system in the firstplace?

also, looking back to the 80s when there wasnt as much cash floating around globally and comparing it to now...... i dont see the connection. this government has made a fortune and squandered it.

Deleted User wrote:

Dunno where you live, but can confirm that the difference between the roads in Kerry/Cork at the end of the Rainbow Government and today is simply incredible. Don't remember a very good health or transport system then either come to think of it. If the next Government have problems, I'll simply point to their record 1982-87 and say to everyone 'I told you so'...

WexfordMusings

WexfordMusings wrote:

Bertie (Bowl) being let off with not being able to spell Government

You heard that story too? I presume you got it through some underground info network, the journos who carried it were supposed to have been executed or detained in gulags long ago.

transylman

What are the major achievements of this government after 10 years in power. The Smoking ban and plastic bag taxes. As far as proactively addressing the problems this country faces both now and in the future, I don't think they are capable of that degree of organisation and competence.

gandalf

Well it could be argued that the setting up of the HSE was the beginning of the right direction to take the Health Service. The problem is they did this http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1314403&issue_id=11897 to achieve that !!! They fudged it and then they continue to fudge it with patchwork PPP's.

Cork

Deleted User wrote:

Do FF haters really believe every word in election manifestos?.

2 Million now working in the economy.

This is the most successful government ever.

FG & Labour opposed SSIAs - Many of them however opened accounts.

For all their years as TDs - Rabbit & Kenny achieved precious little.

Ahern will be the next toiseach.

No previous government can even match the successes of this one.

Cork

transylman wrote:

What are the major achievements of this government after 10 years in power.

2 million employed.

No previous govt comes close.

Again Tax revenue.

Health Spending

Education Spending.


Need I go on.

What is Enda Kennys main achievement?

gandalf

Cork wrote:

2 Million now working in the economy.

Well I guess thats what happens when you have population growth.

This is the most successful government ever.

I would count this as the most wasteful government ever and one of the biggest failures given the opportunities open to them to actually sort out several areas within the country.

FG & Labour opposed SSIAs - Many of them however opened accounts.

As parties they were correct to point out that the SSIA's were a cheap palour trick and would cause massive inflation when the masses get their hands on their cash 5 years later. As private citizens they are perfectly entitled to take advantage of schemes like this. Any intelligent person could see this differentiation. I would have been worried if they didn't take advantage of this offer.

For all their years as TDs - Rabbit & Kenny achieved precious little.

Yeah its called being in opposition

Ahern will be the next toiseach.

Looking into your crystal ball again eh. What happens if the only way Ahern will become Taoiseach is they have to go into government with Sinn Fein, will you support that?

No previous government can even match the successes of this one.

Well no previous government have had the resources this government have, built on the hard work of previous governments before them including in no small way the Rainbow coalition.

The benchmark for this government is have they sorted out infrastructure, the Health Service, Law and Order so when this country does hit hard times we know they are ready for it. The answer to this question is obvious, they have not they have been a dismal failure.

Cork

gandalf wrote:

Well I guess thats what happens when you have population growth..

Many countries have population growth without much employment.

What we have witnessed here is sound economic management.

For all their years as TDs - Rabbit & Kenny achieved precious little.

When they were in government - what was Rabbits big achievement?

The benchmark for this government is have they sorted out infrastructure, the Health Service, Law and Order so when this country does hit hard times we know they are ready for it.

They have made major inroads sorting out such. New hospitals, roads and schools.

What Irish government has sorted out public sector inefficency?

There are no quick fix solutions.

Well no previous government have had the resources this government have, built on the hard work of previous governments before them including in no small way the Rainbow coalition.

Resources only come from good economic managemant.

In the last election - FF and the PDs stood for good economic management. FG wanted to compansate Eircom Shareholders.

How would the squandering to money compansating investors improved Irish social services?

gandalf

Cork wrote:

Many countries have population growth without much employment.

What we have witnessed here is sound economic management.

What countries Cork list them?

What we have witnessed is the country getting by despite the best efforts of this lame duck Government at ruining it by wasting monies on a grand scale.

When they were in government - what was Rabbits big achievement?

As part of the Rainbow Coalition he was involved in helping kick start this economic miracle that this government are mismanaging on a Steve Staunton scale.

They have made major inroads sorting out such. New hospitals, roads and schools.

Oh I guess the waiting lines in A&E are just an illusion. I have had first hand experience of this Cork and I can tell you that things are far far worse after 10 years of Developers friends in power.

Roads, they are still so behind on schedule its unbelieveable Roads may be ok in Kerry (thats for you Conor) but in Dublin again it is far far far worse than 10 years ago when this miracle mob took control. What is needed is an intregrated approach to building new houses, making developers build road and other infrastructure before they pack in housing estates. Of course this government of Marie Antoinette's would never take on their bankrollers, look at the fudge they made of social housing.

Schools see above about infrastructure. Infact as you mentioned it, how many new schools have this government opened?

What Irish government has sorted out public sector inefficency?

Well certainly not this bunch. They offer 2000 managers in the Health Boards jobs for life despite the fact most of them won't have work to do. As a PAYE worker I find it fairly hard to take that my tax revenue is wasted in this way when it could be used elsewhere more productively.

There are no quick fix solutions.

Certainly not from a government who can't even get something as simple as electronic voting sorted.

Resources only come from good economic managemant.

Not really Cork, if this government were good economic managers they would have expected surplus's at the scale they have been. Instead we see them running to the media like little Johnny who normally gets D's in exams and somehow fluked an A.

They have been lucky.

In the last election - FF and the PDs stood for good economic management. FG wanted to compansate Eircom Shareholders.

How would the squandering to money compansating investors improved Irish social services?

Christ this is too easy, what the hell is the SSIA scheme then Cork, just the same on a much larger scale and calculated and timed to help win the next election.

As for Telecom Eireann in one foul swoop the overvalueing of the company and the disgusting greed opera overseen by Mary O'Rourke has put most of the public that took part in that waltz off buying shares. I suppose that was good for the economy too then.

Cork

gandalf wrote:

Oh I guess the waiting lines in A&E are just an illusion..

This government did not invent waiting lines in A&E. Major improvements have happened in Health. But the system has still problems.

Mary Harney is doing a far superor job than the likes of Howlin or Noonan.

FG or Labour again have come up with precious little on Health.

Mary Harney is going down the right route.

Certainly not from a government who can't even get something as simple as electronic voting sorted.

Electronic Voting worked & with some software changes it will work.

We are in the 21st century & hand counting votes is not on in the future.

What is needed is an intregrated approach to building new houses, making developers build road and other infrastructure before they pack in housing estates.

I agree. Local governmennt in this country needs improvement. Look at the mess of the electoral register.

They offer 2000 managers in the Health Boards jobs for life despite the fact most of them won't have work to do.

Don't public servants have jobs for life anyway?

As for Telecom Eireann in one foul swoop the overvalueing of the company and the disgusting greed opera overseen by Mary O'Rourke has put most of the public that took part in that waltz off buying shares. I suppose that was good for the economy too then.

Subsequent events showed the company was not over-valued. Every seller did well after it was sold on afer the IPO.

FG wanted to compansate Eircom Shareholders. This clearly illustrates their atitude to the spending of public funds.

Again - last time out opposition partys wanted to raid the National Pension Reserve Fund. This showed a lack of vision.


In my area - We have new schools, plans for better roads and a big new A+E facility in the local hospital.

I meet Eastern European workers everyday & they don't bemoan and begrudge and expect everything on a plate.

2 million working - no government has been more successful.

FF/PDs have dragged this country up from the gutter.

Remember FG and Labour adding £12 billion to the National Debt in the 80's?

The unemployment and emigration that many Irish governments did nothing about.

Credit were it is due. FF/PDs have transformed this country.

Cork

VPN wrote:

with the environment in the state its in, why are the government building roads and not creating a better public transport system.

Roads are needed to attract investment.

i really hope FF and the PDs get back in again, so when the whole economy collapses (which it will do, ala britain in the late 80s), they'll rightly get the blame.

And the voter - stupid as he/she is - will blame the government and not the economic downturn.

Great.

gandalf

Cork wrote:

This government did not invent waiting lines in A&E. Major improvements have happened in Health. But the system has still problems.

No Cork they didn't but from my experiences over the last 10 years the waiting line have gotten far worse.

Mary Harney is doing a far superor job than the likes of Howlin or Noonan.

Show me how she is, give examples because I don't see it.

FG or Labour again have come up with precious little on Health.

Actually given FG's spokesman for health is a doctor as well I would credit them with having someone who has more of a clue in that position than Mary "closer to Boston than Berlin" Harney.

Mary Harney is going down the right route.

And what route is that Cork, come on tell me what she is doing right?

Electronic Voting worked & with some software changes it will work.

Well according to the experts it didn't and that included the commission the government set up. This government ignored advice when the system was being planned and it has cost and is still costing the taxpayers dearly. And remember this is for technology based systems which normally have a short shelf life so these systems in storage may never get the electorate to use them.

We are in the 21st century & hand counting votes is not on in the future.

It is if the government are incapable of putting a system in place that guarantees peoples votes are counted correctly and an audit trail is in place.

I agree. Local governmennt in this country needs improvement. Look at the mess of the electoral register.

Yes but nothing has been done about it and again this government were in the best position of any to sort out these issues and they didn't. Why? Because they would only hurt their own vested interests if they did.

Don't public servants have jobs for life anyway?

Thats another debate but personally I do not think this should be the case anymore in a modern democracy. They should be subject to the same market pressures as the rest of us especially as they seem to be better paid in most cases than equivalent private sector jobs.

Subsequent events showed the company was not over-valued. Every seller did well after it was sold on afer the IPO.

What subsequent events ? Its a widely held opinion that Eircom was overvalued by the government.

Also alot of people bought into it as a long term investment and did not want to sell. They saw it as an opportunity to invest in part of Irelands infrastructure. That may of been naive but they were lead to believe this by the whole spin around the float.

FG wanted to compansate Eircom Shareholders. This clearly illustrates their atitude to the spending of public funds.

And what about the SSIA's Cork what are they, you haven't answered this.

Direct question to you, do you think the SSIA scheme was a correct use of tax payers monies when it could have been used for far better purposes?

Again - last time out opposition partys wanted to raid the National Pension Reserve Fund. This showed a lack of vision.

I am sure Labour actually denied this spin of deceit by FF and claimed they would increase the contributions to the fund Cork.

In my area - We have new schools, plans for better roads and a big new A+E facility in the local hospital.

Name the schools?

Plans for better roads, jaysus we had the plan for the M50 sitting around for 30 years.

The nearest hospital to me St. Vincents has a lovely big new building and the A&E is now twice as big as the previous one. It just means they can have more people on trolleys (or do the HSE call those beds now?) for 3 days. You see Cork you are correct this government are putting more money into the Health Service but if you do not manage it correctly with accountability then you are pissing it down the drain. This government as masters at pissing money down the drain.

Snipped a load of soundbite crap with no content at all

Cork if I see soundbite answers like that repeated over and over again in any more threads without any real backup because you never ever back anything up properly I will take action.

Cork

By putting proper management structures into health will lead to more efficency and the delivery of better services.

Actually given FG's spokesman for health is a doctor as well I would credit them with having someone who has more of a clue in that position than Mary "closer to Boston than Berlin" Harney.

Roy Keane is a doctor - I would not like to see Roy as Minister for Health.

The SSIAs got a spend spend nation into the savings habit.

For a nation that needs advice on how to spend by Eddie Hobbs - Getting people to save was worthwhile.

Finally - eletronic voting is the way to go. If voting machines can be used - all the better. If not - they can be sold off.

Do you think the SSIA scheme was a correct use of tax payers monies when it could have been used for far better purposes?

Yes - It was a correct use of tax payers monies. The money could have been used for far better purposes. But It was an incentive for people to save.

I am sure that people can now spend their SSIAs as they want or continue to save.

The Government gave a 25% bonus and will get increased VAT revenue. We have to remember vat on many goods is 21%.

Even if the money is going to be used to buy new cars - no alone will the government get VAt but also VRT.

I would love to get the net cost of the scheme.

To conclude, some money has been wasted. But other money has also been well spent.

To conclude - I hope FF and FG/Lab will both provide full costed sets of policies come the next election - so we can trash them out in forums like this.

SeanW

Well, I've said what I said about SSIAs, they were in my view a diabolical waste of money for the state but an electoral asset for Fianna Fail who want to purchase the next election on the taxpayers tab. Anyone who can't see that sticking out like a sore thumb has been fooled.

There are still people dying on hospital trollies.

Crime (oh sorry "anti social behaviour") in some places is out of control.

The public service is a mess, for example the whole driving test waiting list deal? Some places have waiting lists over a year!

Yet the government gave the civil servants a very sweet deal in the last partnership talks which means that many of the problems with these services are now unfixable. In particular, the gov't can't get any outside help with the testing backlog, so more people have to drive on provisionals with the contitions and high insurance to match.

And one thing I'm involved heavily with: public transport, as an absolute unimagineable mess, in some parts were a full CENTURY behind our European neighbors.

FF and the PDs have spent the last five years or so bickering over Dublin's bus system public vs. private. It's now struggling because government has no policy on it and isn't doing anything. By all accounts the bus system in Cork is an unmitigated disaster.

Integrated Ticketing? They spent €30 million or so on a smart card system that doesn't work, and even if it did, it would have just been a new payment system, not "Integrated Ticketing" Anyone who's ever been to cities like Berlin, Munich or London will see real integrated ticketing.
Take Berlin, you put €2 into a vending machine for a single or €6 for a day-pass, and you get a ticket that is good for ALL Tram, Bus, S-Bahn and U-Bahn services in the city. You can't do that in Dublin, and so called "Integrated Ticketing" wouldn't have sorted that out, it would just be a new way of paying, with the old chaotic unintegrated fare structures still in place.

Transport 21 is a mess, it's mostly a re-hash of old broken promises and things that were needed 10 years ago. Specifically:

Fianna Fail lied to the people of Navan and Meath when they promised in 1999that bringing a railway from Navan to Dublin was "top of the agenda" and would be complete in 2004. The following year, the timescale is pushed back to 2010. Then, in 2005, Transport 21 is announced, and the timescale is pushed back to 2015. Subject to another round of studies for the gazillionth time. The M3 motorway project would have severed the old railway alignment making restoration much more expensive, borderline unviable. Fortunately, Meath On Track campaigners spotted this in time - there will be a bridge there now. Meath County Council also built a sewer main on the old line.

FF also presided over the replacement of Intercity carriages on the Dublin to Sligo and Rosslare lines with low-grade commuter junk not suitable for long journies at all. Most Intercity railway journies are SLOWER in 2006 than they were 10-20 years ago.

Then we have:
E-Voting?
2000 Extra Gardai?
Cafe-Bars?
...

Amd how many billions did they spend on consultant's reports, studies, sub-committies and "fact finding missions" to the Maldives etc. to make the above mess? Too many.

Cork

Amd how many billions did they spend on consultant's reports, studies, sub-committies and "fact finding missions" to the Maldives etc. to make the above mess? Too many.

We can all get a giggle out of pictures like that ones published in Ireland of Sunday last week - But if TDs have to observe best practice abroad - why not?

If we need consultant reports - comission them.

The same sinario exists in the private sector.

markpb

Cork wrote:

In my area - We have new schools, plans for better roads and a big new A+E facility in the local hospital.

I meet Eastern European workers everyday & they don't bemoan and begrudge and expect everything on a plate.

2 million working - no government has been more successful.

FF/PDs have dragged this country up from the gutter.

Remember FG and Labour adding £12 billion to the National Debt in the 80's?

The unemployment and emigration that many Irish governments did nothing about.

Credit were it is due. FF/PDs have transformed this country.

Assuming for a minute that the current FF/PD government can take full credit for the economic success, my main problem with them is the way decisions are made. In the main, when a big decision has to be taken, one of two things happen.

1) Infinitely many consultants reports, committee reports, expert reports, dail debates and back again to consultants reports. All along the way, the minister responsible will annouce that money has been ringfenced, a decision is about to be made or a paper is about to be brought before cabinet. So many things over the years have gone this way that people have lost faith in the government to actually do anything. Port Tunnel, Luas, Metro, Integrated ticketing, new schools, upgraded roads system, more guardai, the list is endless. Sure some of them have happened, but only after decades of deliberation and stalling.

2) The decision is made with promptly but only because there is an obvious vested interest. The complete lack of planning that went into zoning and development of west Dublin is a huge sign of this. The hotel currently being built on top of Trim castle is another black mark. If people can't trust the government to make decisions for the right reasons, there's no point making them at all.

It's unfair to accuse the government of making decisions to win elections because thats what the system encourages but this government has taken it to whole new levels. Whenever a tough decision needs to be made, they sit on it, issue press releases, talk about it but ultimately shy away from doing something unpopular even if it is for the best.

Perhaps the FF/PD government were the midwives of the economy but they've proven themselves useless at teaching it to walk. Neither you, nor anyone else can say that the other parties are no good because they weren't in power under the same circumstances. Perhaps they'd be better at keeping the country growing properly?

LostinBlanch

Roy Keane is a doctor - I would not like to see Roy as Minister for Health.

Cork, if that's the best you can do then God help you. Roy Keane was awarded a doctorate of laws from UCC which does not make him a medical doctor. He has never pretended to be so you trying to divert attention from the original post just shows the weakness of your argument.

The SSIAs got a spend spend nation into the savings habit.

They were intended to buy the next election, nothing more, nothing less.

eletronic voting is the way to go. If voting machines can be used - all the better. If not - they can be sold off.

Except for the fact that govt cronies and lackeys have got contracts for storing the bloody things at rip off prices. Unfortunately we can't shop around as Harney once said. Still as long as Cullens pals are happy all is good with the world eh?

The only people that benefit from electronic voting are the FF hacks that get paid ridiculous amounts of money for 25 year leases (in some cases afaik) to store those machines.

To conclude, some money has been wasted.

Finally we get to the truth. Though as ever you understate the truth. It's not some, it's f*cking millions. 10 million here, 50 million there, 80 million there and pretty soon you're talking big money.

But other money has also been well spent.

Yeah if you're one of the developers in the tent at the Galway races