mary harney to resign as PD party leader?

Cork

irish1 wrote:

They have had their chance and failed, now its time an alternative government had a chance, I'm not saying they will be much better but the Public have to give them a chance because the PD's and FF have failed and IMO it won't matter who is leader of the PD's because they have had their day and failed.

Money has been spent on the provision of services that were not there 10 years ago.

First - you had to reform structures - Numerous Health Boards were a joke.

Mary Harney is doing a very good job.

What were the achievements of Howlon or Michael Noonan?

Michael McDowell will attract a certain FG floating vote.

6000 applied for the Garda Reserve.

The opposition try to expliot the crime thing but are their mad rantings backed up with credable stats?

McDowell will advocate low taxation - To date FG or Labour have been pretty silent on economic or taxation policies.

I think McDowell will strengthen the PDs. He is not Mr. Popular - but people respect him.

Villain

Mary Harney may be doing a good job now, not good enough imo, but she has been in government for the last ten years while this health system mess has been getting worse. Seriously Cork tell me why anyone should believe that FF and the PD's will solve the issues that have been there for the past ten years while they have been in power.

Look at the FF manifesto prior to the last election and tell me that they have delivered on those promises? The opposition don't need mad rantings to exploit the crime "thing" as you call it, the Irish people do watch the news you know they can see the murders every week and the road deaths increase on last year.

McDowell will weaken the PD's vote and won't affect the FG imo, McDowell tried hard to before the local elections and we all know what happened the PD's there.

Cork the health system is a mess the crime in our nation is getting out of control and FF and the PD's have had TEN years to correct those issues, but they haven't been able to, I have said that FG may be no better but if we need change and if I was a betting man I would put quite a sum of FF being in opposition come next years election results, unless of course he wants to go into government with SF! How McDowell would hate that.

Cork

Irish people do watch the news you know they can see the murders every week and the road deaths increase on last year.

Road Deaths are below the level of last year.

As for crime - the levels of crime have notchanged alot.

Cork the health system is a mess

They are problems with A+E.

Many areas of the system are top class.

I would put quite a sum of FF being in opposition come next years election results, unless of course he wants to go into government with SF! How McDowell would hate that.

People do not want the tax and spend policies of FG and Labour. People want more tax cuts - giving people the freedom to spend the money that they earned.

Look at the economy he has delivered.
Look at the employment figures.
Look at the VAT receipts.
New Cars.
Big Wide Screen TVs.

Forget the tabloid media and the begrudgers. This country has never had a better government. The Freench and Germans would love our economic success. Because of good economic management - I believe Bertie will get the hat-track and will be the next Taoiseach.



Enda Kenny & Pat Rabbitt have been in the Dail for years. Between them - what have they achieved.

Brenden Howlin or Michael Noonan as Health Ministers achieved what exatctly?

What Health policies have Labour or Fg.

Mary Harney has improved the system by indroducing proper management structures. This makes a difference in any organisation & it will make a difference in health. She has taken on the consultants and reformed a shambles of a system.

Michael McDowell will attract a FG floating vote that is unhappy with FG's move towards the left.

I'd say the future is pretty bright for the PDs - a far more successful party that the ones headed by Kenny or Rabbit.

fly_agaric

Cork wrote:

Mary Harney has improved the system by indroducing proper management structures.

Er. If you are referring to the HSE, I thought the health boards had already been abolished before Harney took over...

Cork wrote:

She has taken on the consultants and reformed a shambles of a system.

How? The fights are still ongoing over new contracts for the consultants aren't they? And lots more besides. Should be a few strikes in the years to come.

Cork wrote:

I'd say the future is pretty bright for the PDs - a far more successful party that the ones headed by Kenny or "Rabbit".[funny sp]

I keep saying this, but it is a disgrace that the PeeDees have the power they have in Ireland when their level of support nationwide is almost too low to measure. They have a minister for each percentage point of the electorate who support them! I suppose that counts as a spectacular success for them and their tiny support, if not for the rest of us.

Cork

fly_agaric wrote:

Er. If you are referring to the HSE, I thought the health boards had already been abolished before Harney took over...

Sure - but the HSE is about the proper management of the system using proper management methods and principles.

Funding was increased so were services. But we need a well managed and efficent system.

Mary Harney has made improvements to the system. There was no quick fix.

The Media focus in on the A+E. A+E is a tiny part of the system.

Improvements are being made in A+E. I have seen improvements myself the other week down in the CUH in Cork.

Villain

Cork wrote:

Road Deaths are below the level of last year.

Wrong wrong wrong, As of 03 September, 258 people have died on Irish roads in 2006. This is an increase of 10 on the same period last year. Please get your facts right. Thats the last statistic I have but I think 4 or 5 more have died since the 3rd.

As for crime - the levels of crime have notchanged alot.

They may not have changed a whole lot in the past 3 or 4 years but in 1990 there was 17 murders in 2000 there was 39, there was 52 murders in 2001 and 2002 with 45 in 2003. It fell to 37 in 2004 but then the highest number ever recorded in this state was recorded in 2005 with 60 people murdered. Now those stats show how badly the muder rate has been over the past 10 years.

They are problems with A+E.

Many areas of the system are top class.

There are more problems than just A&E, the whole Health system has probelms not just the A&E departments. There was 3500 more beds in 1980 than there was in 2001!!! In 2001 Ireland was ranked 27th in OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) countries in terms of the number of hospital beds per thousand of the population.

Also in 2002 Ireland were ranked 22nd of 29 OECD countries in terms of spending on health as a percentage of GDP.

Cork

17 people died in road accidents so far this month, making it the lowest number of deaths for the month of August this decade.

This is welcome news.

irish1 wrote:

Now those stats show how badly the muder rate has been over the past 10 years.

The opposition are explioting stuff like this. They are scaping the bottom of the barrell. Explioting people's fears to win votes.

Dublin is not the murder capital of the EU.

There are more problems than just A&E

As there were when Michael Noonan and Howlin were Ministers.

There was 3500 more beds in 1980

€12.6bn is being spent on Health. Much more than 1980 budget levels.

In real life bed numbers are not a good service indicator.

They are in the hotel sector but not for heath. Many procedures now are done without having to stay over-night. This is better for the patient and more efficent for the hospital.

Fair play to Mary Harney getting away from useless stuff like bed numbers are focusing on efficencys and reform.

Mary Harney is solving the heath problem - just as solved the smog priblem in Dublin. Michael Martin in fairness made good progress with regards cancer care.

Far more than what Noonan or Howlin achieved.

Cronus333

irish1 wrote:

Well we won't know until we give them a chance, trust me I'm not saying this because I support FG, actually thinking FG and their history in the Health department makes me quite angry, what Noonan did when he was last in charge was nothing short of a disgrace. But I still want to see some fresh faces in the department, a fresh approach is needed. I could be on here in 4 years begging for the PD's to come back but I doubt it.

The PD's imo have too much influence for a small party, Health and Justice need reform and that needs the support of the TD's in government, how many times have the backbenchers blocked plans of McDowell??

Surely thats a problem with FF and not the PDs? That would make the PDs the good guys!
Also if you have a problem with the PD influence thats a problem with a FF coalition: If you have no policies your partner's look much important. I would expect the same with FF/LAB. FF/GP or, god forbid, FF/SF.

Villain

Cork wrote:

17 people died in road accidents so far this month, making it the lowest number of deaths for the month of August this decade.

This is welcome news.

Ever hear that one sparrow doesn't make a summer? There has been more deaths this year than last year on the same date. Our roads are full of carnage, the PD's and FF have failed terribly to stop that carnage, the whole penalty points system was too slow to be implemented, random breath testing should have been introduced 5 to 10 years ago. The government have dragged their heels at every point and that has cost lives.

The opposition are explioting stuff like this. They are scaping the bottom of the barrell. Explioting people's fears to win votes.

Dublin is not the murder capital of the EU.

Those are facts I have presented you with, you don't have to exploit them to make a point the facts make the point, murder rates in Ireland have risen to record highs under FF and the PD's. The Gardai are under resourced and once again the Government have dragged their heels when it comes to reform and have been far too slow to provide the resources needed.

As there were when Michael Noonan and Howlin were Ministers.

€12.6bn is being spent on Health. Much more than 1980 budget levels.

In real life bed numbers are not a good service indicator.

They are in the hotel sector but not for heath. Many procedures now are done without having to stay over-night. This is better for the patient and more efficent for the hospital.

Fair play to Mary Harney getting away from useless stuff like bed numbers are focusing on efficencys and reform.

Mary Harney is solving the heath problem - just as solved the smog priblem in Dublin. Michael Martin in fairness made good progress with regards cancer care.

Far more than what Noonan or Howlin achieved.

If memory serves me correctly it was Mr Corrupt [Charlie Haughey] that made those bed cuts, I have presented you with facts that show we spend much less than most countries on Health as a % of our GDP. They have had 10 years to solve the health problems and they have failed.

fly_agaric

Cork wrote:

Fair play to Mary Harney getting away from useless stuff like bed numbers

That has to be the funniest thing I've read in a while.

Cork wrote:

A+E is a tiny part of the system.

That was good too though.

Anyway, she's very focussed on bed numbers alright - just so long as the new beds are in private hospitals paid for by what I think the Americans call "corporate welfare".

Cork wrote:

(about Ireland's violent crime increase) The opposition are explioting stuff like this.

How dreadfully political of them - the dirty cads! You've been ragging on "Howlin" and "Noonan" and "Rabbit" (LOL - I'm sad - I know) and "Kenny" etc for several posts like a typical boring Irish politics junkie who cheers for "his boys" come hell or high water and makes out the opposition to be the worst in the world at every opportunity. You can't talk really.

Villain

From Breakingnews.ie:

Parlon and O’Donnell to nominate McDowell for PD job
10/09/2006 - 15:37:07



The Minister for Justice Michael McDowell is to be nominated for the position of Progressive Democrats party leader by Minister of State Tom Parlon and that nomination is to be seconded by the party's chief whip Liz O'Donnell.

Mr Parlon is to become party president and Ms O'Donnell is to become deputy party leader.

It is also Minister McDowell's desire that Mary Harney continue in her Cabinet role as Minister for Health and Children.

So its McDowell that is to lead the PD's into the next election.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

They have had their chance and failed, now its time an alternative government had a chance,

The improved cancer care facilities and iniatatives introduced by Michael Martin have not failed.

Massive improvements have been made in waiting lists.

Making general sweeping statements ignores the good work that is being done in our hospitals.

What alternative policies has Rabbit or Kenny come up with?

Mary Harney has focused in on proper systems of management in the system. This was lacking.

This is going to provide improvements big-time.

There are no quick fixes - but progress is being made.

Again - Hospital beds is completely useless service indicator as many procedures do not require patients to stay over night. The thru put of patients is the key and not the provision of beds.

What we will get is an efficent and effective system & not one that resources are squandered.

They have had 10 years to solve the health problems and they have failed.

You cannot scrap one system and build another. People need hospitals in the meantime.

Organisational Reform takes time. This is true for organisations in the public sector as well as the private sector.

irish1 - more beds and more tax payers money does not lead to incresed efficency.

The key is increasing thru put in the system. Maty Harney is probably the best Minister for Health this country has had.

I have presented you with facts that show we spend much less than most countries on Health as a % of our GDP

No other government has spent as much on Health.
Well this FF/PD has being spending more than what Noonan (FG) or Howlin (labour) did.

Villain

Cork.

Do you mind if I ask.

Why do you need so many spaces between your sentences.

Just wondering as it looks weird.

---

Anyway back on topic well kinda on topic anyway, you have picked a few points from my post about health but ignored my points about road carnage and the murder rates. Is it that you agree with me that the Government should have solved these issues years ago?

In relation to Health there is no point tallking about what FG spent on Health in the past, no Government has had the money to spend that FF and the PD's have had to spend and as I said before they have been spending less % of our GDP than most other countries. Also if you want to talk about health spending, alot of people believe the issues we are seen now are down to the cutbacks FF made in the 80's.

More beds won't solve all the issues but they will help and I mean more public beds rather than Private beds. Your right there is no quick fixes but surely 10 years is enough time to make a real impact??

10 years after FF and the PD's have taken power and we have a report this week thats shows the needless death of a man in Monaghan due to issues within several hospitals and we have the report into Lea's Cross nursing home still to come.

10 years of huffing and puffing but no real impact has been made to the problems of Health or Justice.

oscarBravo

fly_agaric wrote:

...their level of support nationwide is almost too low to measure.

How exactly is eight Dáil seats "almost too low to measure"? Is there a more useful measure of a party's support? Or are we back to the bizarre logic of thinking that only first-preference votes mean anything?

Diogenes

oscarBravo wrote:

How exactly is eight Dáil seats "almost too low to measure"? Is there a more useful measure of a party's support? Or are we back to the bizarre logic of thinking that only first-preference votes mean anything?

Didnt a recent poll put their popularity at what? 2% or 3%? In the sunday business post? Last week or the week before?

While it's not completely full proof, a figure so low suggests McDowell won't be leaving the bookies smiling like Harney did after the next general election, and many PD TDs are likely to be scanning the jobs section of the papers by the middle of next year.

RainyDay

Cork wrote:

People do not want the tax and spend policies of FG and Labour. People want more tax cuts - giving people the freedom to spend the money that they earned.

Look at the economy he has delivered.
Look at the employment figures.
Look at the VAT receipts.
New Cars.
Big Wide Screen TVs.

The man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Fortunately, more & more Irish people are copping on to the fact that the quality of their life isn't measured by the size of their TV or car engine. Life is about being able to spend time with their kids. Life is about the reasonable expectation that their 30-something working kids will be able to buy a house. Life is about knowing that when their elderly parents go into hospital, they will not spends days & nights on a trolley (while the consultant is busy treating his private patients).

Villain

Excellent post RainyDay, I couldn't agree more, I'm sure those hard working people that spend a couple of hours on the M50 carpark everyday would trade in their LCD TV for some more time at home everyday or knowing that if they are unlucky enough to end up in an A&E clinic they won't end up on a trolley waiting for someone to die or leave so they can get a bed.

Victor

Cork wrote:

Road Deaths are below the level of last year.

Liar. Road deaths are up and have been rising since 2003 (see graphs below).

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

GARDA NATIONAL TRAFFIC BUREAU

Provisional Fatal Collision Statistics 2006
Summary for the year up to 9.00 a.m 6th September 2006
Daily Comparison 2005 & 2006

Total Killed to 6/9/05 250
Total Killed to 6/9/06 259

Pardon the unparliamentary language.

17 people died in road accidents so far this month, making it the lowest number of deaths for the month of August this decade.

Cork wrote:

This is welcome news.

Indeed, very welcome, it shows what can be done. Shame it hasn't been done up to now. If we had managed an average of 20 deaths per months since the initial introduction of penalty points, we would have 500 more people alive today.

Government inaction killed those 500 people.

lostexpectation

so what does mcdowell (or other) being the tanaiste mean for us?

what particular control or responsibilities does the tanaiste have? the definition states...

He or she acts in place of the Taoiseach if the Taoiseach is abroad or ill. If the Taoiseach were to die or become permanently incapacitated, the Tanaiste would stand in until a new Taoiseach was appointed.

Aside from these duties, the title is largely honorific in practice. Under a coalition government the position is commonly held by the leader of the second-largest party who in this situation is free to head any department he or she wants. In a single-party government the Tánaiste is often an 'elder statesman' holding one of the less important ministerial portfolios.
(The Tanaiste may also hold a ministerial portfolio, which means that he or she may also be a minister of a Department of State. )

does the tanaiste also chair more committees or any others positions

Victor

lostexpectation wrote:

does the tanaiste also chair more committees or

I imagine only cabinet sub-committees only (if that). Ministers tend not to be members of Oiereactas committees, an exception being the new one on the review of rape laws.

redspider

There's one thing about Mary Harney resigning as the PD leader, and I didnt read all of this thread to see if it was discussed, but WHY did she resign ONLY the leadership role and why now ??

If you are a politician, you are in it 100%, and in Mary's case, she was leader of a party, she is Tanaiste, and she has a Ministerial portfolio. If you are resigning from something because of personal reasons, because you have done it long enough, etc, why wouldnt you resign from all 3 roles?

It just doesnt make sense to me from her personal perspective and the reasons she gave only to resign from the PD leadership. It looks like a voluntary demotion, a partial step to really resigning, but there is more afoot perhaps. Whether its a case that there was enough internal momentum to oust her and this was an amicable compromise I dont know. Is she looking forward to being in the opposition with a much reduced workload. Perhaps there are health reasons behind it, her own health. Lets be honest, she is not the picture of health and may be diabetic, I dont know.

Mary, for all her toughness, has been a major vote winner for the party across all constituencies, and many females vote for her. She would in my opinion have gathered a lot more votes from the public for all PD candidates than what McDowell will garner, so this to me would seem like a step backwards for the PD's.

As a result, I would be very surprised to see the PD's gain any seats next time out in total, and I would be very very surprised to see them in power. McDowell is ok as a legislator, but leave him to that, the AG role is what suited him and he has already done that.

Redspider

Victor

She had three roles, she is spreading those roles about.

Perhaps it saves a unseemly leadership contest and/or a post election spat.

fly_agaric

oscarBravo wrote:

How exactly is eight Dáil seats "almost too low to measure"? Is there a more useful measure of a party's support?

I know it is the only one that matters.
However, for the PDs, it's only an indication of their very strong support in a small number of constituencies.
1/2 those TD's are in a few S. Dublin ones.
1 of them is a former IFA leader whose popularity probably has damn all to do with the PDs or their policies. He could have gone with another party and still been elected IMO.
The PDs have very little in the way of organisation outside these key areas. Where I happen to live, they have not run a dail candidate for 3 elections AFAIR and last time they couldn't even find anyone to run for the council! Or were they just not bothered? Who knows? Even the Greens always [again - AFAIR from recent elections] put someone up (someone young, cutting their teeth) for the dail, and certainly the council, even if they'd need a miracle to get in. As a slighly less anecdotal illustration, after having a look at their website I see they have 19 councillors (out of 883) around the country (approx. 2%). And funnily enough, these are again concentrated in the same constituencies as their tds (where the political machine is well organised I presume).
Their 8 dail seats have absolutely no relation to actual broad support for them around the country where as for the bigger parties there would be a stronger relationship between dail seats and support.

EDIT: As someone else mentioned a recent poll put their 1st preference support level at just 2 % which would be actually inside the margin of error of such polls. Maybe this means little in terms of their dail representation - the only thing which counts in the end - but it does indicate the party is not popular and does as well as it does by virtue of the concentration of this support (and the parties' efforts) in a few constituencies.

partholon

lostexpectation wrote:

so what does mcdowell (or other) being the tanaiste mean for us?

what particular control or responsibilities does the tanaiste have? the definition states...

He or she acts in place of the Taoiseach if the Taoiseach is abroad or ill. If the Taoiseach were to die or become permanently incapacitated, the Tanaiste would stand in until a new Taoiseach was appointed.

Aside from these duties, the title is largely honorific in practice. Under a coalition government the position is commonly held by the leader of the second-largest party who in this situation is free to head any department he or she wants. In a single-party government the Tánaiste is often an 'elder statesman' holding one of the less important ministerial portfolios.
(The Tanaiste may also hold a ministerial portfolio, which means that he or she may also be a minister of a Department of State. )

does the tanaiste also chair more committees or any others positions

sweet jesus, i just realised what this means. what we get is entertainment, big time entertainment. the leas cross report is due out soon so when bertie disappears from the dail, as he usually does AFAIR he was in the states when the paedos were being released, it'll mean Micky D will have to weather the storm in the dail. Mary , even though i'll never vote PD , was very good at taking the flak. in fact ive great admiration for that ability in her. but macdowel? who'll give odds on how long it is before he looses the rag.

god to quote the amstel add : "this is gonna be great!"

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

Liar. ... Pardon the unparliamentary language.

Afraid not. Unless you can clearly show Cork knew his assertion to be untrue but made it anyway, you are not allowed to call him a liar. Please show this or retract the remark, thanks.

democrates

I must say I find the smear tactics on this thread apalling. For all the points of policy which we may agree or disagree with, it is only fair to bear in mind that Micheal McDowell cannot help it if he comes accross as a mutant combination resulting from a teleportation accident involving Ross Perot, Herman Munster, and a boiled pig.

Seriously though, I respect his straight talking, and though I'm not a PD supporter overall, and despite his reminding me of an old headmaster I detested, I've found myself agreeing with some of his arguments.

Victor

oscarBravo wrote:

Afraid not. Unless you can clearly show Cork knew his assertion to be untrue but made it anyway, you are not allowed to call him a liar. Please show this or retract the remark, thanks.

I genuinely believe he is lying by being selectively posting something that helped his argument (if his posting style can be called an argument). I have not verified it, but I genuinely believe it to be true.

I am willing to downgrade it to "I think Cork is posting uninformed claptrap".

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

I have not verified it, but I genuinely believe it to be true.

Until you do, my objection stands.

Victor wrote:

I am willing to downgrade it to "I think Cork is posting uninformed claptrap".

Please do so - I certainly won't object to that position.

Victor

oscarBravo wrote:

Until you do, my objection stands. Please do so - I certainly won't object to that position.

Something struck me as I was writing that, Cork posted his rather insulting belief (I actually doubt he belived it, if he is saying deaths are down, he must have some cause or source for that). I posted my belief and provided back-up (in the links provided). I am the one being criticised. Isn't this anomalous?

Doesn't Cork owe us an apology?

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

Something struck me as I was writing that, Cork posted his rather insulting belief (I actually doubt he belived it, if he is saying deaths are down, he must have some cause or source for that). I posted my belief and provided back-up (in the links provided). I am the one being criticised. Isn't this anomalous?

You're being criticised (by me) for breaching the charter. You're perfectly entitled to point out that Cork is wrong, and provide evidence to that effect - as you have done. Cork is entitled to provide evidence for his claim, if he can. If he chooses not to, you've effectively proven him wrong.

Cork wrote:

Doesn't Cork owe us an apology?

For being wrong?