Noel Dempsey Introduces Computer Licence (as in Dog Licence)

Sponge Bob

From

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single7016

The definition of a television set is likely to be expanded to include laptops, PCs and possibly even mobile phones under a new Broadcasting Bill published by the Minister for Communications Noel Dempsey TD yesterday.

I have heard Noel complaining about lack of PC Penetration in Ireland in the past but surely this is not what was meant by 'penetration' Noel . Read the dictionary again willya .

Under the current legislation these devices are all ABSOLUTELY fine as long as they are in a home and the home is covered by a TV licence. Surely you do not want to mug tourists with mobile phones (and no TV licence) on the DART do you , is that the grand plan to make your department some revenue ???. Will they have to buy a feckin TV licence off Mick O Leary before they get on the plane ?????

These devices are all fine in an Office if the office gets a TV licence and has Broadband over 512k It is technically impossible to receive 'TV' on Dial up or ISDN .

This is stupid law , introduced by a stupid department....and where is the
bloody COMMS BILL you klutzes.

And what about the feckin Nissan Primera with its TV screen on the dashboard ..........EH!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the worst thing is that the definition of the device will be left up to you Noel

52: Regulations designating an apparatus to be a television set

Explanation of purpose...

Objective of this head is to empower the Minister to make secondary legislation designating a device or software programme to be a television set (within the context of the definition of a television set provided in Head 51).



Text of Proposal ...
1. The Minister may, by regulations designate a specified kind of apparatus to be a television set for the purposes of Part VI of this Act.

2. Regulations under this section, which designate a specified kind of apparatus to be a television set, may provide for references to such a television set to include reference to software used in association with apparatus.

3. The Minister may by order amend or revoke a regulation made under this section.

and whats this about HOVERCRAFT , I know you were inspired by the UK but jayzus

definition of a television set

"television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasts broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

“television broadcasting” means the initial transmission by wire or over the air, including that by satellite, in unencoded or encoded form, of television programmes intended for reception by the public. It includes the communication of programmes between undertakings with a view to their being relayed to the public. It does not include communication services providing items of information or other messages on individual demand such as telecopying, electronic data banks and other similar services.
"electronic communications network" means transmission systems including, where applicable—
(a) switching equipment,
(b) routing equipment,
(c) other resources,
which permit the conveyance of signals by wire, by radio, by optical or by other electromagnetic means, and such conveyance includes the use of—
(i) satellite networks,
(ii) electricity cable systems, to the extent that they are used for the purposes of transmitting signals,
(iii) fixed terrestrial networks (both circuit-switched and packet-switched, including the Internet),
(iv) mobile terrestrial networks,
(v) networks used for either or both radio and television broadcasting, and
(vi) cable television networks,
irrespective of the type of information conveyed;

'broadcast' means the transmission, relaying or distributing by electronic communications network of communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals, intended for reception by the general public whether such communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals are actually received or not;

Part B.

“apartment” means a self-contained residential unit in a building that comprises a number of such units;

"premises" includes land not built on, land covered by water and a structure of any kind whether attached or affixed to the land or not;

“record”,except where the context otherwise requires, means any disc, tape, perforated roll or other device in which sounds are embodied so as to be capable (with or without the aid of some other instrument) of being automatically reproduced therefrom, and references to a record of a work or other subject matter are references to a record (as herein defined) by means of which it can be performed;

“supply” includes without giving payment;

“specified place” shall include an apartment, holiday home, holiday house, holiday villa, approved holiday cottage, holiday apartment, and individual rooms within an apart-hotel, guesthouse, hostel, hotel, motor hotel, qualifying student accommodation, school, college, university, health premises, hospital, place normally used for indoor public entertainment, licenced premises, registered club, and place of work;

"undertaking" means a person being an individual, a body corporate or an unincorporated body of persons engaged for gain in the production, supply or distribution of goods or the provision of a service.

“vehicle” includes caravan, ship, boat, hovercraft, tramcar, railway train, aircraft or vehicle propelled by mechanical or electrical means.

But not a hot air balloon, how so utterly APT !

Solair

Why does RTE need to rip yet more revenue out of mobile phone users?!

They charge per view of the content!!!!

Charging a TV licence on anything that isn't a broadcast TV reciever is nonsense in my opinion.

RTE ought to be moving away from this sort of revenue collection

smellslikeshoes

Whatever Noel is smoking I want some of it. I couldnt see how RTE would deserve a licence fee if they are not going to provide infrascruture, The internet should be worldwide level play field, its unfair that RTE would get an advantage over anyone else. Noel is living in a dream world, He expects people to pay a television licence fee for a pc because of broadband tv pity most of us can't get it. Thankfully an elction is not too far away, by the time he tries to do anything with his plans we should be rid of him.

bringitdown

This is rediculous ...

Make your observations at http://www.econsultation.ie/

Dangger

The fact that this is even be considered with our current broadband coverage is laughable.

We are a million miles away from the 99.9% broadband coverage the North now has. I could understand an attempt at presenting such a bill to the public in the run up to an election if that was the case here. But given the current sorry state of affairs I can't comprehend the mind of the architects of such a bill.

PC owners who do not own televisions, or operate in business premises without televisions are now to be penalised.

It's sheer lunacy. The definitions are so murky and so full of holes I'm sure we can have this kicked to touch using the consultation process if we applied our tiny minds to it .

Election, election election folks.

Mr_Man

Noel,

is trying to raise the dosh to give it to that nice Mr McRedmond over at Eircom to enable all those little exchanges out in the sticks, and pay for all of those big bonuses that Eircom's top people award themselves?

M.

damien

So, does campaigning to put a halt to this fall under the remit of IrelandOffline?

Sponge Bob

The campaign is not really an IoffL matter save that many of the devices that one will suddenly have to have a licence for will be converged 3g/DVB-H/HDPDA devices that are primarily a tagged datastream delivery over an IP layer. Their primary purpose may not be to watch telly nor even upload to youtube

"This is a tax on Information not on Entertainment " said Sponge Bob

This badly written piece of drivel bodes ill for the next bill that this shower of muppets intend to produce , namely the comms bill.

A campaign to straighten up thinking and the process of thinking in the Department of Comms would be in order. I am not predicting that it will have any effect, mind, given that the same shower could not even test http://broadband.gov.ie/ in Firefox.

The Real B-man

Noeler never ceases to amaze me :rolleyes:

watty

Technically an anything with a TV tuner counted as a TV in the past, in UK and Ireland, i.e. VHS + Monitor or PC with Tuner card.

So not enitirely daft.

RangeR

watty wrote:

Technically an anything with a TV tuner counted as a TV in the past, in UK and Ireland, i.e. VHS + Monitor or PC with Tuner card.

So not enitirely daft.

True, but as far as I know, this is a blanket license on all computers*. Not just those with tuners on board. The majority of computers don't have tuners and will cost the population a lot of money.

*I stand to be corrected

seamus

IrishTLR wrote:

True, but as far as I know, this is a blanket license on all computers*. Not just those with tuners on board. The majority of computers don't have tuners and will cost the population a lot of money.

*I stand to be corrected

Not necessarily on all computers. I think the aim is to get everything which has the capability to receive television programming, regardless of the method of receiving this programming. So in theory this includes 3G phones, and any piece of computing equipment which has a network adapter including routers, switches, etc.

Noel will have to extend the standard TV licence to cover all equipment used inside and outside that home/place of work, or to exclude all portable devices. Otherwise he'll become a laughing stock due to the blatant unenforceability of such regulations.

watty

The cheap Hong Kong pocket radio for listening to Luxemburg 208 was what killed the Wireless Receiver Licence. Even Car radios had to have a separate Wireless Licence once.

RangeR

seamus wrote:

Not necessarily on all computers. I think the aim is to get everything which has the capability to receive television programming, regardless of the method of receiving this programming. So in theory this includes 3G phones, and any piece of computing equipment which has a network adapter including routers, switches, etc.

Point noted, but does the ministers definition of a network adapter include the actual network interface card in almost EVERY computer sold today?

seamus wrote:

Noel will have to extend the standard TV licence to cover all equipment used inside and outside that home/place of work, or to exclude all portable devices. Otherwise he'll become a laughing stock due to the blatant unenforceability of such regulations.

Totally agree

Solair

I just noticed my washing machine has some rudementary elements of a network controler and a switch inside!?

Do I now need a TV licence for it?!?!

This requirement could easily be interepreted to cover practically anything. More and more modern appliances will fit that description as they become more "online"

I mean, litterally my washing machine has a pretty complex processor on board, a network of sorts, an IR port for transmitting and receiving data to a PC should someone wish to update it / service it...

This legislation is utterly ridiculous! I mean, every ATM in the country would now need a TV licence for a start.. not to mention all those luas machines, Irish Rail ticket machines...

JohnC.

Does your washing machine have the means to display TV shows? Something having comms stuff alone would hardly count. It would need a screen too and have the means to display video taken in through the network. I'm not sure ATMs would even have that. I'd assume what they are connected to is strictly controlled for security reasons, so I doubt that, even with some kind of network access and a screen, it could actually display TV. It wouldn't be connected to a service which could deliver TV to it. Could be wrong about that though.

Not that I want to be seen to support a computer licence.

Solair

There are plenty of devices that already have LCD monitors, usually far higher resolution than PAL television, built into them. The number of these devices is likely to increase rapidly!

I mean, for example, an Video iPod would fall into the categories covered by this legislation as it's used to watch video output.

I don't think RTE deserve to have access to revenue from this sort of thing. I can't see why they should get it. They're getting enough from the household TV licences they already have without milking businesses, students and other non-tv watching individuals for what is in effect just a regressive form of taxation.

I'm in favour of funding RTE properly and independently but I don't think that a licencing system which is inforced and administered in a draconian way by one of Ireland's least efficient organisations, An Post, is the right way to go about it.

The fairest way to collect it would be:
If you want access to:
Sky Digital, Digital Cable or Digital Terrestrial service you would have to provide a valid TV licence number. No TV licence = the viewing card can't be enabled.

So, rather than having a bunch of inspectors assuming that you're guilty of licence evation, getting warrents to search your home for a tv etc. If you didn't have a licence, you basically wouldn't be able to watch.

As for those living on the border etc.. who cares if they watch northern TV ?! It's not that big a deal

With the analogue switch-off coming soon, it's a great opportunity to just get rid of this most stupid way of collecting revenue for RTE and come up with something that's more efficient, fair and modern!

watty

PAL TV is at least 544 x 576 pixels and if square pixels on 4:3 would be 768 x 576. DVB / DVD "PAL related" is up to 720 x 576

Some portable devices have up to 1440 pixels wide for widescreen (portabale TV and DVD players) but typically 240 lines horizonal (1/2 NTSC's 480 lines, solve interlacing to progressive by throwing away 1/2 the lines).

Most portable devices are 1/4 NTSC at best (320 x 240). 1/4 PAL is 384 x 288.

I know of NO portable devices that can do close to TV resolution.

Many LCD Living room TVS only exceed PAL resolution for HDTV models!

The fairest way to collect it would be:
If you want access to:
Sky Digital, Digital Cable or Digital Terrestrial service you would have to provide a valid TV licence number. No TV licence = the viewing card can't be enabled.

Won't work.
Sky don't exist here except to install. They won't be interested in doing it, it would boost N.I. accomodation address subscriptions etc.
1300+ TV easily received by satellite with no card. (ALL BBC and ITV for a start).

It has been suggested about 7 years ago for DTT, but unless you brought it in AFTER analog switch off, people will not upgrade!

It would kill RTE.

GerardKeating

IrishTLR wrote:

True, but as far as I know, this is a blanket license on all computers*. Not just those with tuners on board. The majority of computers don't have tuners and will cost the population a lot of money.

Not really, if you consider it, a household only requires a single licence for all TV in the home.

So the only people effected are those whom have a computer, but do not have TV, which i suggest is a very small sub-set of the population.

Sparky

So I assume all windows media center PCs now need a TV licence.
Will they go after all the young lads with LCDs with TV tuners in their cars looking for a fee?
I know a few students who have no TV in their accommodation.
They however in fact use a tuner card in the PC for TV broadcasts.
I honestly think that Dempsey smokes some rough sh1t.
I heard recently that in some country the TV licence fee is also on the electricity bill.

Capt'n Midnight

Sparky-s wrote:

So I assume all windows media center PCs now need a TV licence.
Will they go after all the young lads with LCDs with TV tuners in their cars looking for a fee?
I know a few students who have no TV in their accommodation.
They however in fact use a tuner card in the PC for TV broadcasts.
I honestly think that Dempsey smokes some rough sh1t.
I heard recently that in some country the TV licence fee is also on the electricity bill.

Video Recorders and Tuner cards and other devices that can decode a TV signal from a aerial have ALWAYS come under the definition of a TV, under the existing laws. Mobile phones that can receive broadcast TV are TV's under existing law (can't find that link). No change is needed there for them to go looking for money. I'm actually suprised they aren't going after the 3G providers for info on who bought those phones in the way the've got info from cablelink and tv rental companies in the past. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1972S2.html 2.—(1) The Minister shall establish and maintain a register of television dealers. so the minister is actually failing in his duties to maintain a list of dealers of television devices.

“television broadcasting” means the initial transmission by wire or over the air, including that by satellite, in unencoded or encoded form, of television programmes intended for reception by the public. It includes the communication of programmes between undertakings with a view to their being relayed to the public. It does not include communication services providing items of information or other messages on individual demand such as telecopying, electronic data banks and other similar services.

the crunch is, what is television programmes broadcast for general reception ?
at it's loosest definintion it's well nigh impossible to buy a computer that isn't capable of displaying a video signal received from the internet that definition is a tax on Windows and OSX and some games consoles. even Windows 3.11 with quicktime would qualify - so the minister has been remiss for over a decade and a half.

"television set" has the meaning assigned to it in the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1972, as amended by section 2 (2) of the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1988.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1972S1.html

"television set" means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy designed primarily for the purpose of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA19Y1988S2.html

"Television set" means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

so AFAIK there needs to be NO CHANGE in existing law to require TV licenses for any hardware capable of decoding an analog or DVB or DTT or other types of commercial TV signals be it a "free" mobile phone or €40 usb capture card or video recorder.

In the past using a Video recorder with a monitor, has been classed as a TV. So if your computer is capable of decoding a signal from the aerial or cable then it's a TV and always was.

Capt'n Midnight

Lets assume for a moment that the precident set by monitors applies. You don't need a TV license for a Monitor (CCTV /VGA / SCART / Composite etc) if it can't receive a broadcast TV signal. But you do need a license for a device that can convert a TV signal into a form the monitor could display.

OK

You can get TCP/IP CCTV's, no license is needed because they can't directly display a broadcast TV signal.

But

Any device running linux or similar OS can potentially have a program installed on it that can process streaming video from the internet and repackage it in a format the TCP/IP CCTV camera could use. Or it could simply act as a video server for a web browser if it had the processing power. It need not be Linux as the OS, embedded windows it's even easier since it's probably got a GUI. This means that many Routers, AP's, Firewall appliances, games consoles, print servers could be technically be considered as TV's because they could convert streaming video. It would mean that every major telephone exchange would need a TV license, as well as almost all companies and possibly many cars managment systems. Possibly networked laser printers and stuff like that too.

so there is no need to change the existing law, unless you want to clarify or tax more

Foxwood

It does not include communication services providing items of information or other messages on individual demand such as telecopying, electronic data banks and other similar services.

If I click on a link that asks www.rte.ie to send me an "item of information or other messages", such as a streamed audio or video clip, then this action is explicitly EXCLUDED from the definition of “television broadcasting”.

Even a "live stream", such as the recent examples of GAA matches streamed by RTE, or even Charlies funeral, rely on an "individual demand" to get access to the stream, unlike broadcast TV, where the signal is "in the ether", and can be received without any notification to the sender.

Cabaal

Ok if they introduce this then I think all facilitys on the RTE.ie website should only be available to people within Ireland and only if they have a secure usernma/epassword which is displayed on their TV license.

I believe its unfair to make us pay for a service that anyone outside of Ireland and not paying a tv license can view for free!

Its only fair, you get what you pay for

paulm17781

Cabaal wrote:

Its only fair, you get what you pay for

Sadly we pay for Noel Dempsey.

BoneCollector

So are we going to get organised and ATTACK this before it is allowed to become Irish fk up LAW??

thebman

GerardKeating wrote:

Not really, if you consider it, a household only requires a single licence for all TV in the home.

So the only people effected are those whom have a computer, but do not have TV, which i suggest is a very small sub-set of the population.

Doesn't make it a good idea.

What is the justification for it?

If it'll generate that little revenue, whats the point given that the majority of people don't use their computer to watch tv/video?

I'll make him a deal, if he gets me 20Megabit broadband with choice of companies via wireless and land line then he can charge me for a tv license for my computer. Otherwise he can feck off.

Also how are they going to detect a computer that doesn't have a tv card or any kind of reception equipment for television. I mean if you have a computer with Wireless, you can turn it off etc.. but you can recieve video via WiFi hotspots etc.. so you should need a license for your laptop in that case but how can they find you?

Basically they are just going to go round to everyones houses to check if everyone has a tv license or whats the story?

Personally the whole thing seems stupid and pointless to me and I have a laptop and tv so I'm not even effected.

jwt

My understanding of the TV/radio licence was that ANY device capable of receiving a transmission was technically required to have a licence.

In this situation transmitting and receiving is a handshake less situation. A broadcast transmission requires no return signal or message. The receiver does not send any signal or message. E.g. radio TV satellite using radio waves to transmit a signal to a receiver only apparatus.

If RTE wish to send TV pictures over a two way medium that’s their lookout.

If Vodafone as an example wish to send RTE pictures and sound over their network then that’s between them and RTE. The end user is not responsible. I would see this as similar to hotels and pubs required to pay the broadcaster an extra fee to re broadcast a transmission to users.

However if your phone can receive one way radio signals as an ordinary radio receiver then under existing law it DOES require a licence (usually covered by your household TV/radio licence similar to your car radio)

If your computer has a receiver capable of receiving one way transmissions then it too requires a licence.

The difference here is the line
"television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasts broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

The key bit is “whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith”

That’s just nuts!

For example I have a really bright bulb. It now requires a TV licence because dependant on the use of anything else in conjunction with it could display TV pictures say if I use some electronics, tuning circuits, an LCD shutter and lens it could be a projector!!


However the line above it is critical
Any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasts broadcast for general reception

What I think they are trying to cover is a tuner in a computer with a monitor attached.

The tuner in and of itself is not a TV. It cannot display a picture. A PC in and of itself cannot display a picture

The monitor in and of itself cannot display a TV picture.

But all three together and you can display TV. And in the spirit of the existing LAW I think we can all agree that a PC with a tuner showing programmes on the monitor is a TV

My gut feeling on this is that the item being addressed is people using Plasma screens with a DVD player and media centre swearing black blue and blind they don’t have a TV.

The bottom line is that every house and premises in Ireland will require A TV licence. Full stop. In this day and age (leaving aside the argument for or against the TV licence) it IS fair to say that every house or premises has the capability to receive and display TV whether or not it is actually used or not. Be it your fridge with LCD panel and internet connection, your phone with colour display and internet access, PC and tuner combination, car with built in DVD/PSP/TV display or shock horror a TV!


I think the title of this thread is a bit misleading.

"Noel Dempsey expands TV licence to include any device capable of receiving TV" would be more accurate.

daymobrew

Cabaal wrote:

Ok if they introduce this then I think all facilitys on the RTE.ie website should only be available to people within Ireland and only if they have a secure usernma/epassword which is displayed on their TV license.

I believe its unfair to make us pay for a service that anyone outside of Ireland and not paying a tv license can view for free!

RTE.ie video steams are limited to those with Irish IP addresses. RTE has a good relationship with ISPs here and the ISPs keep RTE informed of IP range changes.
The problem with the Cork/Kerry replay stream was that RTE used another company to deliver the stream. That company's database if IP addresses was not as accurate as RTE's (this affected me on ntl, and probably others on UTV broadband).

So, the streams are not available to anyone outside of Ireland. Of course, that doesn't mean that all of those inside of Ireland who viewed the streams have a TV license.

watty

It's simpler than that. RTE don't need ISPs to tell them anything.

The good people at http://www.webhosting.info/ have provided everyone (yeh, even you!) with a list of every single netblock and where they think (read: educated guess) an IP is located.

Simply enough it's called the Ip to Country database http://ip-to-country.webhosting.info/ and you can always download the latest version of their database here. http://ip-to-country.webhosting.info/downloads/ip-to-country.csv.zip

Of course till recently NTL Dublin IPs were from NTL's UK range, so you could watch BBC Sport feeds... I think UPC has different IPs now for ex-NTL areas.

Foxwood

daymobrew wrote:

RTE.ie video steams are limited to those with Irish IP addresses. ....
So, the streams are not available to anyone outside of Ireland.

No they're not.
RTE restrict access to some media streams (audio and video) when their license to broadcast that coverage is geographicaly limited (such as their coverage of the Ryder Cup and the World Cup). When there are no limits imposed on RTE, RTE broadcast the streams without any limits.

shoegirl

Dangger wrote:

The fact that this is even be considered with our current broadband coverage is laughable.

We are a million miles away from the 99.9% broadband coverage the North now has. I could understand an attempt at presenting such a bill to the public in the run up to an election if that was the case here. But given the current sorry state of affairs I can't comprehend the mind of the architects of such a bill.

Never mind DSL coverage. You cannot get even RTE1 in some parts of the country without a roof aerial because terrestrial coverage is so dismal. You are effectively being charged for having a TV or aerial/dish regardless of whether or not you can actually receive anything! This in my view is ridiculous? Reception in Ireland is actually disimproving, not improving. The long lines of Sky dishes in new housing estates in rural areas are a symptom of this malaise.

I actually am very angry at having to pay twice for TV - once to have a licence for owning a TV, and secondly to a 3rd party provider to actually deliver the serivce that is supposedly paid for by my licence payment, because I am unable to receive it due to living in a rural location!