The whole 'Nazi' jibes at McDowell

...it always disappoints me to see the glee with which posters throw out 'Nazi', 'Fuhrer' and 'Gestapo' jibes at Michael McDowell. Frankly, I don't like the man. But it wouldn't cross my mind to demean the Holocaust or refer to it glibly to score a very cheap point against an Irish politician. Patently we do not live in a society where a whole race face extermination in concentration camps. Have we grown so comfortable that we cannot empathise with the gravity of what Hitler tried to achieve, that we just see that whole little problem as a useful soundbite to throw out in a post?

Villain

I think you'll find McDowell likes to use Nazi jibes too, just ask Richard Bruton.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I think you'll find McDowell likes to use Nazi jibes too, just ask Richard Bruton.

As I said I don't like the man and that line was entirely inappropriate and unacceptable - I believe he said as much afterwards. I don't think that gives others a carte blanche to use the exact same insult though. Hearing it again and again certainly cannot be great comfort to the Jews in Ireland.

DadaKopf

Hey may not be a Nazi (personally, I think that people who resort to calling people Nazis automatically lose the argument), but McDowell is an authoritarian cloaked under the self-delusion that he's an old-fashioned libertarian. I think McDowell has a serious problem empathising with anyone other than his own ego.

He's a small man.

sovtek

There are Jews in Ireland?

Sleepy

While I can't say I like the guy, I do at least recognise that he's at least *trying* to improve things in this country. It shouldn't be that laudable a thing in a politician but unfortunately in this country it seems to be quite a rare trait.

Akrasia

Mcdowell compared Bertie to Ceaucesco, so if he can give it out, then he should be prepared to accept whatevers thrown at him

Vegeta

Sleepy wrote:

While I can't say I like the guy, I do at least recognise that he's at least *trying* to improve things in this country. It shouldn't be that laudable a thing in a politician but unfortunately in this country it seems to be quite a rare trait.

As someone keenly interested in all shooting sports his ignorance on the matter was made very clear with the new CJB. When challenged on some of the new legislation he would not back down even if clearly wrong or out of his depth.

He's not trying to improve things in this country, he is trying to get things done his way

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Mcdowell compared Bertie to Ceaucesco, so if he can give it out, then he should be prepared to accept whatevers thrown at him

To me it just says a lot more about the person making the jibe. Bet they have a store of 'funny' Auschwitz jokes. The suggestion that they are only stooping to his level is hardly a stirring defence.

partholon

hate to break it to ya but when people call someone a nazi ,theryre not talking about concentration camps, theyre talking about the culture of authoritarinism and the absolute uncompromising rule of law. you know like turfing immigerants out of the country for speeding. or forcing a section of the population to carry stars of david, i mean barimetric identity cards, or prehaps raiding schools for unsuspecting children to deport them

funny thing is the guy doesnt seem to apply the same rules to himself, see the many investigations and tribunals he's exempted himself and the gardai commisioner from. micheal has many letters from the people in donegal in his desk complaining about gardai corruption and heavy intimidation yet nowt is ever heard about that nor is an explaination given to why he did nothing and essentially covered it up till someone (thank you mister macbriorty) had the cash to go to the supreme court to get justice. funnily enough the name of the department he's in charge of. pity he doesnt know its meaning. if it was left to macdowel frank macbriorty jr would be serving a life sentence for a murder he didnt commit, and indeed by all accounts didnt happen!

by the way you do know besides the jews another six million people were killed in the holocaust. its not just a jewish tragedy, its a human one

partholon

partholon wrote:

hate to break it to ya but when people call someone a nazi ,theryre not talking about concentration camps, theyre talking about the culture of authoritarinism and the absolute uncompromising rule of law.

'I hate to break it to ya' but I disagree strongly. When someone calls another a 'Nazi', in my experience, it's just a cheap insult rather than some searing analysis of political ideology and comparison of different regimes through examination of actions.

I believe it is more based on the thinking 'he's right wing, and what the worst thing you can call someone on the right wing' to be honest.

partholon

fair enough. but you cant deny macdowel did all the things i said he did, and he's planning to implement the rest. when you factor in what he did to frank connoly as well, in my life i dont remember anyone in the dail ever using privilage in such a way to attack a private citizen, you have to admit he's more than a tad right wing. he's full blown dangerous. honestly can you think of any other minister who's acted with such arrogance and comtempt

lostexpectation

so what you think of former senior judges working on prison reform reports doing the same...

Meh

partholon wrote:

hate to break it to ya but when people call someone a nazi ,theryre not talking about concentration camps, theyre talking about the culture of authoritarinism and the absolute uncompromising rule of law. you know like turfing immigerants out of the country for speeding. or forcing a section of the population to carry stars of david, i mean barimetric identity cards, or prehaps raiding schools for unsuspecting children to deport them

Doesn't that devalue the term "Nazi" just a little? I mean, you're comparing deporting dangerous drivers to the Holocaust, the two things are hardly on the same scale.

Remember, when you compare McDowell to Hitler, you're also comparing Hitler to McDowell.

The Corinthian

Comparisons with the Nazis can be valid, but to do that you would need to make a genuine comparison with one or two policies or identifiable attributes. As such comparing McDowell to Hitler fails as one could hardly make a genuine comparison between a dictator and someone who (other than not being head of state or similar) is at worst vaguely authoritarian.

TBH, people who don’t know enough about the Nazis to make a historical comparison in the first place typically make this particular comparison. Ultimately, they don’t like him and the comparison reinforces this for them.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Seth Brundle

(staying on the sideline but) would fascist be a more appropriate term than nazi?

The Corinthian

kbannon wrote:

(staying on the sideline but) would fascist be a more appropriate term than nazi?

Only if you don't actually know what Fascism is and simply want to misuse the term as a cliché.

Andrew 83

I think if you take the proposed policy of making all non EU citizens always carry a biometric ID card but not all the rest of the people in the country that could be compared to the Nazi policy of making Jews, homosexuals etc wear identification. It isn't going as far but it's very close to it. In that context I think a comparison is good as it should ring some alarm bells in remembering where these kind of things can end up going. Clearly though none of his policies are anywhere near a holocaust.

John_C

Andrew 83 wrote:

I think if you take the proposed policy of making all non EU citizens always carry a biometric ID card but not all the rest of the people in the country that could be compared to the Nazi policy of making Jews, homosexuals etc wear identification. It isn't going as far but it's very close to it. In that context I think a comparison is good as it should ring some alarm bells in remembering where these kind of things can end up going. Clearly though none of his policies are anywhere near a holocaust.

Is the law that cars carry number plates also akin to jews wearing yellow stars?

The Corinthian

John_C wrote:

Is the law that cars carry number plates also akin to jews wearing yellow stars?

Yes and sending criminals to prision is apparantly akin to the death camps.

John_C

The Corinthian wrote:

Yes and sending criminals to prision is apparantly akin to the death camps.

My mother used to write my name on my clothes when I was in school. Should I shop her to Mossad?

The Corinthian

John_C wrote:

My mother used to write my name on my clothes when I was in school. Should I shop her to Mossad?

You'll really have to ask the intellectuals who make, in all seriousness, these comparasons that question.

Sparks

I do find it somewhat surreal that the best defence for an authoritarian public figure is now to invite comparisons with figures like Hitler, Stalin and Mao; whereas comparisons with the great moral leaders of recent history like Ghandi or King has become the touch of death for any politician.

John_C

We should set up an internet pole; "should I shop my mother?".

Anyone who votes 'No' will be barred from likening anyone to a Nazi in the future unless that person has actually annexed Czechislovakia.

Macker

John_C wrote:

We should set up an internet pole; "should I shop my mother?".

Anyone who votes 'No' will be barred from likening anyone to a Nazi in the future unless that person has actually annexed Czechislovakia.

Make mothers pole dance ? ...I suggest a poll to decide

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote:

I do find it somewhat surreal that the best defence for an authoritarian public figure is now to invite comparisons with figures like Hitler, Stalin and Mao;

How is he inviting such comparisons? Calling him authoritarian, especially in the present World climate where governments (both left and right wing) are increasingly becoming more paranoid is ridiculous. Especially if you bother to consider what the term ‘authoritarian’ actually means.

The individuals making them are doing so because they already don’t like him. Calling him names (and let’s face it calling someone Hitleresque is typically intended as an insult) simply reinforces or justifies that dislike.

That’s all it comes down to really; some people dislike him and so call him names, making a clichéd reference to Hitler. In this he is no more inviting such comparisons than any politician who has people who dislike him or her.

whereas comparisons with the great moral leaders of recent history like Ghandi or King has become the touch of death for any politician.

Really? I’m not disagreeing with you, but where has this occurred?

John_C

Macker wrote:

Make mothers pole dance ? ...I suggest a poll to decide

Touché

Andrew 83

John_C wrote:

Is the law that cars carry number plates also akin to jews wearing yellow stars?

All cars wear number plates, with people it should also be all or none. It would be wrong if only EU or only non EU citizens cars did.

partholon

The Corinthian wrote:

The individuals making them are doing so because they already don’t like him. Calling him names (and let’s face it calling someone Hitleresque is typically intended as an insult) simply reinforces or justifies that dislike.

That’s all it comes down to really; some people dislike him and so call him names, making a clichéd reference to Hitler. In this he is no more inviting such comparisons than any politician who has people who dislike him or her.

which is why im glad macdowel won the leadership of the PDs. they were gonna get a kicking anyway at the next election but because of his profile the PDs now actually face the posibility of extinction. no matter what you think of bertie pat and enda no one really hates them. you might disagree with their policies but as individuals no one really finds them offensive. macdowel is actively loathed by a significant number of people, having him as leader may put people who wouldve voted PD (example : for colm o gorman) off compleatly

plus factor in his 50/50 sucess rate in getting elected in the first place and you could have the vista of tom and liz sitting in the dail with their leader absent (i didnt mention mary cause shes standing in clondalkin and i dont rate her chances, lucan its not )

Sparks

The individuals making them are doing so because they already don’t like him.

They certainly don't like him at the point where they make the comparisons; but given that these individuals generally don't know the man personally, the only rational reason for such comparisons is ideological in nature - namely that they find his policies to be authoritarian.
So you're arguing that they only call him authoritarian because they don't like him; while discounting wholly the possibility that they don't like him because they find him authoritarian...

As to the Ghandi or King comparisons, these days even the word "liberal" which was a good - if imperfect, though all such must be by definition - general catagorisation of their political views, is now the political equivalent to derogatory vulgarity in the US and increasingly on this side of the Atlantic as well. Note the general derision reserved for the Green party by all, but most especially McDowell, who has had to apologise for his public characterisations of the Greens in the past. Attempt to state you have an altrusitic or longer-term political viewpoint in modern Ireland and you risk being derided as unrealistic and portrayed as some disconnected stereotypical figure from an american 1960s mythos.