The whole 'Nazi' jibes at McDowell

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote:

They certainly don't like him at the point where they make the comparisons; but given that these individuals generally don't know the man personally, the only rational reason for such comparisons is ideological in nature - namely that they find his policies to be authoritarian.
So you're arguing that they only call him authoritarian because they don't like him; while discounting wholly the possibility that they don't like him because they find him authoritarian...

And you’re assuming that these individuals have more than a tabloid overview of this guy. Given some of the well thought out augments in this thread defending such comparisons, I’d beg to differ.

As to the Ghandi or King comparisons, these days even the word "liberal" which was a good - if imperfect, though all such must be by definition - general catagorisation of their political views, is now the political equivalent to derogatory vulgarity in the US and increasingly on this side of the Atlantic as well. Note the general derision reserved for the Green party by all, but most especially McDowell, who has had to apologise for his public characterisations of the Greens in the past. Attempt to state you have an altrusitic or longer-term political viewpoint in modern Ireland and you risk being derided as unrealistic and portrayed as some disconnected stereotypical figure from an american 1960s mythos.

Liberalism seems popular enough here, TBH. Maybe it’s just your brand of ‘liberalism’?

The Corinthian

Andrew 83 wrote:

All cars wear number plates, with people it should also be all or none. It would be wrong if only EU or only non EU citizens cars did.

Yes, and it would be wrong only to let EU citizens come over here to live and work, we should let anyone do so... :rolleyes:

It should be noted that Ireland is one of the few countries, along with Britain that has not restricted the number of new EU citizens coming into the country to do just that.

Would that make Prodi in Italy and Zapatero in Spain Nazis?

SeanW

I believe in Godwin's Law as applicable to everyting, including politicians. That is, that when the term "Nazi," "Hitler" or other references to the German government during WW2 are abused, the abused terms lose their 'shock' value which it needs when someone needs to use them to describe something that is directly related to, or very similar to real Nazi-ism.

In that respect while it's not OK in my book to call McDowell a Nazi, he himself well and truly crossed the line by comparing Richard Bruton to Joeseph Goebbels.

Frankly about the only good thing I can give that tosser credit for his great Cafe Bars idea - oh dear - Bertie sin binned that idea because Fianna Fail has such a massive conflict of interest, y'know, being in the pockets of the publicans who have a vested interest in making certain Ireland never adopts a healthy attitude to alcohol ...

Sparks

And you’re assuming that these individuals have more than a tabloid overview of this guy. Given some of the well thought out augments in this thread defending such comparisons, I’d beg to differ.

Well, if an indepth evaluation is what you seek, you may consider my case. I had quite a bit of exposure to McDowell's mannerisms on a personal level and policies on a professional level with regard to the Criminal Justice Bill as it applied to the amendments of the Firearms Acts. I found his manner repugnantly arrogant, to a degree both unprofessional and unstatesmanlike. His policies were ill-informed, ill-advised, framed in a manner insulting to many law-abiding people and contained glaring basic errors and omissions. You can refer to the public record of the Dail debates on that section of the Bill if you wish, or look at the Criminal Justice Bill thread in the Shooting forum on this site.

And yes, I would strongly agree with the assertion that McDowell is an authoritarian by nature.

Liberalism seems popular enough here, TBH. Maybe it’s just your brand of ‘liberalism’?

And with that phrase, you reinforce my point.

Andrew 83

The Corinthian wrote:

Yes, and it would be wrong only to let EU citizens come over here to live and work, we should let anyone do so... :rolleyes:

It should be noted that Ireland is one of the few countries, along with Britain that has not restricted the number of new EU citizens coming into the country to do just that.

Would that make Prodi in Italy and Zapatero in Spain Nazis?

We look like changing that when it comes to Romania and Bulgaria in January (coincidently it's McDowell who's changing that). I'm proud of the fact that we have let the other 10 accession states' citizens in, we should also have given them the same level of access to social services as we do to the other 14 EU member states' citizens who come here, but it was a good start. We need to keep expanding in this regard and not cutting back, no matter what the UK do.

Neither Prodi nor Zapatero were in government at the time those decisions were made - it was Burlesconi and Aznar. That's doesn't excuse the two you mention for not changing policy yet though.

Andrew 83

SeanW wrote:

Frankly about the only good thing I can give that tosser credit for his great Cafe Bars idea - oh dear - Bertie sin binned that idea because Fianna Fail has such a massive conflict of interest, y'know, being in the pockets of the publicans who have a vested interest in making certain Ireland never adopts a healthy attitude to alcohol ...

I agree with you there. He also hasn't, as far as I know, insisted on throwing beggars and prositutes in jail with the alarming vigour his predecessor John O'Donoghue did.

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote:

And yes, I would strongly agree with the assertion that McDowell is an authoritarian by nature.

But authoritarian enough for dictatorship? Because if not then the comparison really begins to look stupid.

And with that phrase, you reinforce my point.

No, I just don’t think you’re a Liberal.

Andrew 83 wrote:

We look like changing that when it comes to Romania and Bulgaria in January (coincidently it's McDowell who's changing that). I'm proud of the fact that we have let the other 10 accession states' citizens in, we should also have given them the same level of access to social services as we do to the other 14 EU member states' citizens who come here, but it was a good start. We need to keep expanding in this regard and not cutting back, no matter what the UK do.

But this is not the same as the racist policies of the Nazis, which is the comparison, and neither is it as morally black and white, given that a majority of people in this country would tend to disagree with your sentiments.

Neither Prodi nor Zapatero were in government at the time those decisions were made - it was Burlesconi and Aznar. That's doesn't excuse the two you mention for not changing policy yet though.

Indeed it does not, but and so the comparison could still be made but your logic, which is why I think such comparisons are idiotic.

Andrew 83

The Corinthian wrote:

But this is not the same as the racist policies of the Nazis, which is the comparison, and neither is it as morally black and white, given that a majority of people in this country would tend to disagree with your sentiments.

My point is that making one group of the population carry a particular piece of identification which they must produce when stopped (which could be an arbitrary stop) and is an offence not to carry, but not anyone else in the population is wrong. I'm not saying it's the same as what happened with the Nazis, but that it's starting down a road which is not that big a leap from making certain parts of the population wear armbands at all times which it is an offence not to wear. I don't really see what point you're trying to make.

Indeed it does not, but and so the comparison could still be made but your logic, which is why I think such comparisons are idiotic.

Again I can't really follow this.

EDIT:

The Corinthian wrote:

Yes, and it would be wrong only to let EU citizens come over here to live and work, we should let anyone do so... :rolleyes:

Sorry forgot to address this point earlier. While I would like to see more open borders (and globally, not just here) that is irrelevant to this discussion. What I'm talking about is immigrants who are legally here. They should be treated the same as everyone else who is legally here (as is currently the case in many situations. Existing legislation says that those who gain refugee status are entitled to all the rights of every other citizen yet these people will now be forced to carry a biometric ID card at all times while most of the citizenry will not). McDowell's proposals will lead to them not being. Also, I haven't heard of any age limitations on the carrying of these cards. Will all children of non EU citizens who move over here have to carry their fingerprints etc to school on biometric cards everyday?

Victor

John_C wrote:

We should set up an internet pole; "should I shop my mother?". Anyone who votes 'No' will be barred from likening anyone to a Nazi in the future unless that person has actually annexed Czechislovakia.

Well I once had an experiment with Bohemia, does that count?

You shold be reported to the Spell Czechs!

Sparks

The Corinthian wrote:

But authoritarian enough for dictatorship?

Yes. Honestly and seriously. A specific example?
In the new Firearms Act 2006, there is a section which gives the Minister the right to declare some firearms to be "restricted", on the basis of a half-dozen metrics from calibre to colour. There is no appeals procedure, there is no requirement for consultation - with experts or otherwise, there is no mechanism by which a mistake can be appealed. For example, if the Minister says he wants to ban all .22 calibre firearms, he now has that right - even though that will eliminate 11 of the 15 olympic shooting events from the list we can train for in Ireland. And noone will have the ability to contest that decision in any court because of how the law is written. We asked in the Dail during the debate that this be amended to give a formal appeals mechanism; this was denied. We asked for a formal consultation mechanism - denied. We asked to have it written that we could call up the minister and ask him informally to reconsider - denied. And not just denied, he sat there in the Dail laughing at the notion that we - a group of law-abiding sportsmen who conformed wtih every law he'd ever written on that area and who went beyond the law in terms of safety precautions, and all of whom were experts in the area because of long periods of time spent working in it (usually over ten years) - were asking to be able to appeal his decision.

That is authoritarian. It's the sheer amusement he felt - as well as the open contempt and disdain that he displayed in parliment - at the notion that a group of experts were pointing out that an appeals or consultation process on a very technical area of the law was a necessary thing to have, that makes him authoritarian in nature.

The Corinthian

Andrew 83 wrote:

I'm not saying it's the same as what happened with the Nazis, but that it's starting down a road which is not that big a leap from making certain parts of the population wear armbands at all times which it is an offence not to wear. I don't really see what point you're trying to make.

Suggesting that going from this to armband wearing is not big leap is an insane extrapolation. The ID system is designed to curb illegal immigrants, not to set apart one part of the population from the rest.

Again I can't really follow this.

They’ve not reversed the policies and in certain cases (Spain) tightened immigration security up, thus one can argue that they are in agreement and even building upon the policies of their predecessors - especially if you consider some of the policies they’ve had no trouble reversing (e.g. Iraq).

Does that make them Nazis? Probably as much as McDowell.

Sorry forgot to address this point earlier. While I would like to see more open borders (and globally, not just here) that is irrelevant to this discussion. What I'm talking about is immigrants who are legally here. They should be treated the same as everyone else who is legally here (as is currently the case in many situations. Existing legislation says that those who gain refugee status are entitled to all the rights of every other citizen yet these people will now be forced to carry a biometric ID card at all times while most of the citizenry will not).

The problem is not the legal ones, but the illegal ones and given that the latter will attempt to blend with the former then ID become a practical measure. Indeed this further debunks your Nazi analogy as they specifically used such identification (which was visible, not an ID card) to separate them from the rest of the population, while this measure is designed only to separate the illegal portion of that group.

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote:

That is authoritarian. It's the sheer amusement he felt - as well as the open contempt and disdain that he displayed in parliment - at the notion that a group of experts were pointing out that an appeals or consultation process on a very technical area of the law was a necessary thing to have, that makes him authoritarian in nature.

That's not authoritarian enough for dictatorship though. Do you have a better example? Were you arrested for your dissention? Sent to a re-education camp? Fed a bit of caster oil? Are you forbidden to campaign in opposition?

TBH, he certainly is a bit authoritarian and arrogant (a la Thatcher), but going from that to dictatorship, let alone Nazism is fanciful to say the least. To me it sounds more like he ignored a group he considered to be nut cases.

Andrew 83

Surely though for this to have any effect then people who 'don't look like EU citizens' will be arbitrarily stopped in order to inspect their ID when they haven't done anything wrong. I think this is wrong and could lead to unfair targeting of those who look/sound different by the authorities. How else are they going to get to check the cards? Will bouncers etc start taking it upon themselves to ask (illegally or not) to see them? (This isn't ridiculous, I think most of us have seen bouncers flaunt laws - I have witnessed two pretty serious assualts in recent months while just walking by outside Dublin city centre nightclubs by bouncers. Even though I'm sure this is a minority it does happen and not infrequently)

I reiterate that although I don't think that all citizens should have to carry these cards, I would have less of a problem with the whole population doing rather than just a small group based on where they come from. Identification based on something like this is comparable, though as I say not the same, as Nazi policies which went further in my opinion.


If this is going to keep going in circles though we should probably drop it.


(EDIT: I wouldn't call him a Nazi by the way. I do find these immigration proposals to be completely objectionable and deeply worrying. I think comparisons of indivudal policies to some particular Nazi policies are not out of place, by means of a warning and a reminder. It's not to say they're the same or to equate the people involved. If we are unable to use bad examples from history as a warning of what may happen it's a very bad state of affairs and itself takes away from the importance of what happened)

partholon

The Corinthian wrote:

That's not authoritarian enough for dictatorship though. Do you have a better example? Were you arrested for your dissention? Sent to a re-education camp? Fed a bit of caster oil? Are you forbidden to campaign in opposition?

TBH, he certainly is a bit authoritarian and arrogant (a la Thatcher), but going from that to dictatorship, let alone Nazism is fanciful to say the least. To me it sounds more like he ignored a group he considered to be nut cases.

wasnt martin ferris arrested in kerry north two weeks before the last election in a blatent attempt to scupper his election hopes? who ordered that, particularly seeing as he wasnt charged with anything. and while you may not be fed castor oil you can be humiliatied and farted /spat on and emotionally brutalised ala frank macbriorty jr. hey you might even have a mental breakdown over it like his wife!

and in the 2002 mayday "riots" didnt the gardai hospitalise 27 people and threaten reporters with arrest? i seem to vividly remember a girl from RTE asking a gardai why they were batton charging peacful protesters and taking off their numbers and being told in reply,"if you dont get off the street im arresting you for obstructing the public highway and i'll confiscate your equipment"

not exactly a good sign is it, and this is before the new poweres mickey d gave the gardai

fact is you now live in a country where you can be taken into gardai custody for 72 hours for doing nothing, be let go, and taken in again. oh and you can die for no apparent reason in a gardai cell if your really unfortunate and no one'll be held accountable

John_C

partholon wrote:

wasnt martin ferris arrested in kerry north two weeks before the last election in a blatent attempt to scupper his election hopes? who ordered that, particularly seeing as he wasnt charged with anything. and while you may not be fed castor oil you can be humiliatied and farted /spat on and emotionally brutalised ala frank macbriorty jr. hey you might even have a mental breakdown over it like his wife!

and in the 2002 mayday "riots" didnt the gardai hospitalise 27 people and threaten reporters with arrest? i seem to vividly remember a girl from RTE asking a gardai why they were batton charging peacful protesters and taking off their numbers and being told in reply,"if you dont get off the street im arresting you for obstructing the public highway and i'll confiscate your equipment"

not exactly a good sign is it, and this is before the new poweres mickey d gave the gardai

fact is you now live in a country where you can be taken into gardai custody for 72 hours for doing nothing, be let go, and taken in again. oh and you can die for no apparent reason in a gardai cell if your really unfortunate and no one'll be held accountable

Yet the current minister had no hand in any of that.

Sparks

The Corinthian wrote:

That's not authoritarian enough for dictatorship though.

I'm afraid it actually is, in the context of the example quoted - because he is the dictator for that area of law now. No appeals, no consultations. Can we be sent for re-education? No. Can we have our doors kicked in by armed police without our having broken any law? Yes. It has happened.

To me it sounds more like he ignored a group he considered to be nut
cases.

Let me give you a quote from McDowell about that same group from 2004 to speak on that point:

4. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the policy on the issuing of licences for 0308 firearms and other similar armaments; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that this policy prevents marksmen from representing Ireland internationally; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6399/04]

Mr. McDowell: The Deputy will appreciate that there is a difficult balance to be drawn between, on the one hand, having a firearms policy which seeks to limit the availability of particular classes of firearm for reasons of public safety and national security and, on the other hand, endeavouring to meet the requirements of those who wish to participate in international shooting competitions.

...

I have heard from and met people who consider that policy antiquated. I can see some considerable force — this is a view which Deputy Deasy might share — in the proposition that the real danger to Irish society probably does not come from misappropriated sporting firearms or competitive shooting firearms, and that the prevalence of firearms and their availability from other sources is probably much more obvious as a problem than this particular problem. I want to review the position and address the difficulties that competitive shooters currently encounter.

...The situation at present is unduly conservative and a political steer is needed. I confess that I met some of the relevant interests over a year ago and promised them early action. For one reason or another, I have been blown off course on that issue.

...I share Deputy Deasy’s view that people engaging in a competitive sport recognised at Olympic level and the like should not face insuperable or impossible odds on a domestic legislation front just because they live in Ireland, which is not wholly different from any other society in the world in terms of the firearms issue, when we all just wish them well when they go abroad to represent the State.

His thinking of us as nutjobs would not be consistent with such a statement, don't you agree?

partholon

partholon wrote:

wasnt martin ferris arrested in kerry north two weeks before the last election in a blatent attempt to scupper his election hopes? who ordered that, particularly seeing as he wasnt charged with anything.

Sounds to me like a very serious allegation being made here. If we are to say that the arrest of a convicted gun runner is a sign that we are going down the same route as Nazi Germany, and you are suggesting that this was ordered by the Minister, you could at least flesh out your allegations a little.

Incidentally, people have died in custody and members of the public have clashed with the police in left wing regimes as well, and indeed in many countries around the globe. If that is some yardstick - and I can only presume you are making the connection as that is the topic - I guess we should have a list to see what politician is not a 'Nazi'.

partholon

Deleted User wrote:

Incidentally, people have died in custody and members of the public have clashed with the police in left wing regimes as well, and indeed in many countries around the globe. If that is some yardstick - and I can only presume you are making the connection as that is the topic - I guess we should have a list to see what politician is not a 'Nazi'.

true. but im not talking about differnt regeims. im talking about a minister for "justice" who either

A. exempts himself and senior people involved from investigation

or

B. restricts the tribunals terms so much they cant ask niggleing little questions like "did you murder that boy in the cell?"

this is micky d's track record. not just my opionon of him, its how he acts. is it too much to ask to have criminals go to jail?

partholon

partholon wrote:

is it too much to ask to have criminals go to jail?

What criminal is not in jail and how is the Minister complicit in his remaining at large?

partholon

well pretty much all the gardai involved in the macbriorty affair. last time i checked retierment on a pension in execss of the average industrial wage isnt exactly prison!

John_C

partholon wrote:

well pretty much all the gardai involved in the macbriorty affair. last time i checked retierment on a pension in execss of the average industrial wage isnt exactly prison!

Your argument is getting very weak here. It's a huge jump from saying that your not happy with the results of an investigation to saying that the minister is a nazi, with all the implications that being a nazi entail.

If anything, putting the gards in jail if there's not enough evidance against them (which I presume is why they're out, though I don't really know) would be more 'nazi-like'.

partholon

John_C wrote:

Your argument is getting very weak here. It's a huge jump from saying that your not happy with the results of an investigation to saying that the minister is a nazi, with all the implications that being a nazi entail.

If anything, putting the gards in jail if there's not enough evidance against them (which I presume is why they're out, though I don't really know) would be more 'nazi-like'.

they didnt even charge em! there was pleanty of evidence of at the very least a perversion of the course of justice yet no warrents, no court cases. just a cushy deal in terms of early retirement. apparently the "shame" was the punishment.

hell the only reason we even know about this is because frank macbirortly snr damn near bankrupted himself getting to the supreme court to get justice for his son, it was only then that the other 100 plus charges laid againts him were dropped for being groundless. which begs the question, how many innocent people are in jail now cause they didnt have the cash? if your were frank jr youd be in jail now with macdowel saying "justice was served, hes a murderer"

accountability lads, thats what its all about. and apparently its the last thing on this ministers mind. otherwise he wouldnt be taking every opertunity to exempt himself

John_C

partholon wrote:

they didnt even charge em! there was pleanty of evidence of at the very least a perversion of the course of justice yet no warrents, no court cases. just a cushy deal in terms of early retirement. apparently the "shame" was the punishment.

hell the only reason we even know about this is because frank macbirortly snr damn near bankrupted himself getting to the supreme court to get justice for his son. which begs the question, how many innocent people are in jail now cause they didnt have the cash?

accountability lads, thats what its all about. and apparently its the last thing on this ministers mind. otherwise he wouldnt be taking every opertunity to exempt himself

Yes but nothing to do with the Nazi's.

partholon

John_C wrote:

Yes but nothing to do with the Nazi's.

didnt they also abuse their authority with out any recourse to the law? using your power to get yourself and your mates off sounds exactly like what a dictator would do

John_C

partholon wrote:

didnt they also abuse their authority with out any recourse to the law? using your power to get yourself and your mates off sounds exactly like what a dictator would do

How is he getting himself off? Were the gardai his mates?

And why is there no recourse to the law? We've just had a very long, public and (I presume) detailed tribunal. He's setting up some type of inspector so the gards aren't policing themselves again and he'll be up for re-election in a year.

You're free to disagree with his policies, I disagree with a lot of them myself but there's no non-superficial similarity between this minister and the Nazi's.

The Corinthian

partholon wrote:

didnt they also abuse their authority with out any recourse to the law? using your power to get yourself and your mates off sounds exactly like what a dictator would do

Which of course is a uniquely Nazi policy... clutching at straws, methinks.

SeanW

partholon wrote:

didnt they also abuse their authority with out any recourse to the law? using your power to get yourself and your mates off sounds exactly like what a dictator would do

Even if he is a corrupt police-statist, which wouldn't surprise me, how does this make him a Nazi?

Nazi/Hitler/3rd Reich/Joeseph Goebbels etc. = World War 2, 6 million Jews murdered many times more gypsies, homos, slavs, troops on both sides killed, and general mass destruction and mayhem.

Tin-hat dictators and Police-Statists come a dime a dozen. Nazis don't.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

There is still the question of the rather serious link Partolon made between McDowell and the detention of Martin Ferris days before an election.

Not only is McDowell damned by some, but it would seem he is damned by innuendo and unsubstantiated allegation.

partholon

oh for gods sake get off your PD/FF high horse, you'll give yourself a nose bleed, where did i mention micheal macdowel in regards to the martin ferris thing? i was responding to the corinthians comment about dictatorships and i provided examples of where the state swung in to interfer with the democractic process, something he obiviously doesnt thinks happens according to his post. the only mention i made in that post about mickey d was where he actually increased the powers the gardai have.

stop avoiding the issue and tell me why macdowel wont allow the office of the minister of justice and the atorney general to be investigated for their part in the macbriorty affair? if hes the repubican he claims to be he would!