Ntsa Agm 2006

tireur

Sparks wrote:

frankly you wouldn't believe me. So show up to the AGM and ask.
See you there.

So I go to the AGM and ask the officers and members of WTSC whether you have undue influence on them and of course they say "what?". Why are you the only person who speaks for WTSC? I seem to recall from last year's AGM that you got little or no spoken support from them during the meeting. Are they ashamed to be seen in public with you or is there some deeper Agenda running here?

Sparks

of course they say "what?"

So you won't believe me and you won't believe them.
Talking to you's a waste of time then.

tireur

How about answering the questions Sparks?

" Why are you the only person who speaks for WTSC? I seem to recall from last year's AGM that you got little or no spoken support from them during the meeting. Are they ashamed to be seen in public with you or is there some deeper Agenda running here?"

I seem to recall that you like people to answer your questions. Maybe one of the WTSC officers would like to join the debate?

Sparks

No point in me answering you tireur, you don't believe a word I say so it'd be a waste of breath. As proven by my already having answered your question in the NTSA AGM thread from last year.

There's also no fairness in your request for a WTSC officer to post here, as you're asking them to identify themselves, give up anonymity, in order to answer your question, when you yourself not only won't identify yourself, but you have also just stated that you won't believe what they say.

tireur

I never thought I would see the day when you had nothing to say. Your normal course of action is to witter away at the details--DEATH BY LIST--until every other poster gets bored. I think that your running away from this thread implies it is cutting too close to a bone you do not want to dig up.

Sparks

Hmmm.
Ah, that's what's missing - you forgot to say "My dad can beat up your dad". Go on. You know you want to.
:rolleyes:

sidneyreilly

Sparks, do you not think that the sport has enough bureaucracy between licensing, range authorizations etc. without added heaps of verbal tripe into it. It's a sport and supposed to be fun. Anyone reading that list of drivel would be forgiven for not wanting to get involved in our sport!

Sparks

Sparks, do you not think that the sport has enough bureaucracy

Darn right I do. And there isn't anyone in WTSC who thinks otherwise, so far as I know. But those motions aren't being put forward for our amusement. There are a lot of shooters who are being badly treated by those running the sport on a national level. If that wasn't happening, believe me, this wouldn't be either. We've got a new training range to build, several shooters to train, a number of competitions to organise teams for - the club has enough to be getting on with that this wouldn't be done if it didn't have to be! This isn't an exercise in vendetta by me despite tireur and some others being so certain that it is. This is being caused by head office treating people - people who work hard for the sport and put a huge amount into it - very badly indeed. And it's no fun for any of us in WTSC to be facing into going into that room next weekend for what's going to wind up being a very uncomfortable experience. We'd seriously prefer to not have to do it. But what can we do? Our juniors are being shafted, the only thing the club chases after - getting medals on the international ISSF circuit - is being made an impossible goal by head office because we'd have to get those medals despite their involvement; and the things we actually need them to do aren't being done. Even then, we didn't immediately start making a list of motions. We've tried lots of ways to solve this problem quietly. We've worked inside the NTSA and been burned for it. We've tried working without the NTSA and been opposed by them for it. We've tried informal chats, we've tried private emails and letters, we've tried laying cards on the table so they knew our motives, and none of it has worked. So here we are, at the last option the NTSA gives us for this sort of thing, not because we're not trying, but because nothing else has worked.

And it's not like what we're asking for is out of reach or impractical, or that we're just pointing out problems without suggesting solutions. For example - an open and fair competition for places on the Irish Team (instead of the current behind-closed-doors selection which is done without any form of guidelines, metrics or rules). We sat down and wrote up a way it could be done, in detail, with worked examples. It'd take about a weekend to sort this out on the national level, once every six months or so. So why weren't we listened to?

If you're a recreational shooter, or someone who competes but doesn't have any interest in ISSF world cups or the Olympics, I can see things like that being less important to you, but not that they'd be actually undesirable. And if those things don't matter to you at all, why should you care whether they're talked about or not?

And lastly - do you think talking about and fixing problems with head office is going to drive people away from our sport in larger numbers than are leaving already because of those problems? Or don't you notice things like olympians shooting in Northern Ireland rather than bothering with shooting for the NTSA? If they are driving away people who've loved this sport for donkey's years and who've put so much time and effort into the sport, what do you think they're doing to beginners who are still wondering if they like the sport? Don't go blaming the x-ray for the broken bone!

vlmaxis

Jesus Christ sparks, I don't know what you do for a living, but your boss must be very easy going, you seem to have nothing but time on your hands to keep writing long meaningless replies all day, (GIS A Job)

Sparks

It doesn't impact my work vlm. When you work with computers, touchtype and don't smoke...

(ps. Tireur already explored this path in his usual way last year in that year's AGM thread. Since then I've done well in work and in the rest of my life, including the target shooting side of it, if I do say so myself; so I'm guessing I was right and he was wrong. But then, I usually assume that with people who have to resort to ad hominem attacks right out of the box anyway, so he was at a disadvantage to begin with in terms of convincing me anyway.)

Sparks

From the NTSA website:

National Target Shooting Association of Ireland AGM.
Contributed by NTSA
Wednesday, 13 September 2006

The AGM will be held in room C110 in the Henry Newman building (otherwise known as the “Arts Block”) in University College Dublin, Belfield, Dublin 4.

The “Arts Block” is in the centre of the University and can be accessed from all main entrances. Room C110 is located in section C of the Henry Newman building on the first floor. The AGM will start at 2:30pm and will conclude at 6:00pm at the latest due to venue constraints.

Looking forward to seeing you on the 23.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

Since then I've done well in work and in the rest of my life, including the target shooting side of it, if I do say so myself;

If you call making a total fool of yourself regularly, in public doing well then I would have to agree with you but from my perspective not yours. You are not usually thick Sparks but you clearly do not appreciate that in everything you touch, the man taints the arguments, so it is fair to argue ad hominem as the two are indistinguisable. Perhaps the cruellest thing your opposition could do is let you takeover the NTSA. All of the target shooters would have to suffer for a while until the new NTSA committee saw , by your proclivity for endless argument about trivia, that you are detrimental to progress and would then proceed to fire you off just like the previous committee did.Now what do you other target shooters think? Do we let the lunatics take over the asylum?

Sparks

If your argument is that the man taints the arguments Tireur, you ignore the fact that these motions are being put forward by the Wilkinstown club as a whole (you also ignore basic logic, of course, but that's little surprise by now). But even setting that aside for a moment, I have to ask - are you saying that you agree with the motions but will not vote for them because of some personal animosity towards someone you don't know personally; or that you don't care to read the motions or form a point of view on them at all because of that personal animosity?

tireur

Personal feelings have no place here Sparks , at least as far as I am concerned. I am interested in the general good of shooters in Ireland, whatever their discipline, which is why I find your actions so reprehensible. As we saw last year with the Olympic Coaches, you seem prepared to sacrifice the broad interests of shooters in order to get what you want for yourself and one niche in the shooting spectrum . This is again displayed by the list of motions you put forward. You did not consider for one second the public relations aspect of such a list, in it's affect on shooting in general. I do not believe for one second that the whole of the WTSC, adults, juniors, parents etc. were involved and your statements about the whole club only belittle the members and the club's achievements. You should apologize and resign to make ammends, preferably before the NTSA AGM .

Sparks

I should resign because someone I don't know doesn't believe me when I tell him the truth? *pah*

But out of curiosity, Tireur, if I did resign - how would you vote on the motions then?

tireur

Could you explain how the entire WTSC was involved in putting together and agreeing all of the 70+ motions?

As regards voting for the motions, if you do resign then the motions will disapear so there is nothing to vote on. As I pointed out earlier in this argument, any substance that may be contained in the list is lost in the drivel which surrounds such substance. Surely you are not expecting any readers of this board or any attendees at the AGM to take that list seriously?

Sparks

Tireur, the motions were submitted in the name of WTSC and are on the agenda. If I did resign, they would remain. So, if I did resign, how would you vote?

tireur

If you have been following the NTSA Agm thread, you will know what this is about. If you have not been following that thread, please have a quick look through now.

Some of you members will not be aware that an enormous list of of motions has been submitted in your name for consideration at the AGM of the National Target Shooting Association which is the organisation that supervises ISSF and other target shooting disciplines in Ireland. This list is, at best unprofessional and at worst, makes you wonder about the state of the mind that created it. It is clearly not a serious list, as one glance will show you. However, it is having a serious effect on how your club and Target shooting are perceived in Ireland.
WTSC is a strong club with a good record. It is a serious club dedicated to the ISSF disciplines with a history of developing young and new shooters. This track record, and the good image of your club ihas been damaged by the way that these motions have been put forward. It is clear that some members of your club would like to change the way that some aspects of the NTSA work is carried out. There is nothing unusual about that. What is unusual is that, instead of you getting some of your members to join the committee and work with them to change things, this list of motions has been put forward in your name and I suspect that most of you were not involved in the preparation or discussion of the list. Some of you will be aware that there is a history of conflict between one of your members and the NTSA. It is clear that this history has affected the relationship between your club and the NTSA. The way to resolve these issues is by sensiible discussion and by involvement of WTSC members at committee level in the NTSA, not by submitting lists which clearly display animosity.
I urge you to talk to other members of your club and to get things back on an even keel before your reputation is further damaged. Get your committee to nominate some individuals to take office on the NTSA committee.They will be more than welcome. By all means go to the AGM and air the serious issues but do not diminish your club by having it associated with the behaviour that created the list of motions.

tireur

Why not wait and see what the WTSC members think about you resigning? As I have said already, once you are gone from the club, so will the motions go unless you have been cloned by association?

demonloop

I'm not a member of Wilkinstown nor any club in its area so I am unaffected by the outcome of the AGM but I had a read through Sparks list of motions. At first I thought what is he at? most of those motions are ridiculous!!

Then I though yeah they are ridiculoous if they have to be put on the table.

Most of the motions put forward would, I would have thought, been standard practice of such a body. Most make common sense and I'm at a loss to see how they are not already part and parcel of the body.

There are some that require a lot of setting up, proper record keeping etc doesn't just keep itself, someone is gonna have to be a central hub to all the shooting taking part in Ireland but is that not the point of the NTSA tha same as NSRA in UK?

I don't know Sparks personally or any of the characters involved or know what hidden agendas might be at play, if any, but 90% of motions sound to me like they should have been in place from day one of the NTSA's existence.

It would have been less o a job than its gonna be to try and impliment them all now!!

Just my $0.02 worth!!

tireur

demonloop wrote:

Most of the motions put forward would, I would have thought, been standard practice of such a body. Most make common sense and I'm at a loss to see how they are not already part and parcel of the body.

That is the very point Demonloop. How do you think that the NTSA has been doing it's business and has remained in existance for so many years? Why do you think that when Sparks made his similiar revengeful attack at last years AGM he was defeated? For the very reason you point out. They do their job, business continues--but not to Sparks' liking. The great shame is that he has dragged his club into the argument.

Sparks

Tireur, if you'd post your email address, it'd make it easier for the club members to respond. But I've forwarded them your letter at any rate.

In response to DL's question and your assertion, no, these things are not part and parcel of the NTSA's day-to-day operations. They merely are what needs to be done, not what head office actually does...
:rolleyes:

Sparks

I had considered responding to you, Tireur, but I have grown tired of being diplomatic with you, so I'll say this as straight as I can. I think you do not engage with the whole business of running the sport in good faith. Nor do I think you post here in good faith.

I believe you are going into the NTSA AGM as an NRPAI man. I believe that you honestly believe the NRPAI is the best way to do things. One body, all of shooting in it. It's not actually a bad idea, in and of itself - right now in the UK, the NRA, NSRA and CPSA are all talking with one another about a merger into one single body for just that reason.

The problem with your plan lies, not in the merits of the actual ideal you believe in, but in its implementation, the NRPAI.

We have seen, time and again, that the NRPAI is a private club, with no enforced rules or procedures, and that they do not behave in a manner that would benefit us. There have been arguments in the past about the distribution of Sports Council funds amongst the constituent members, with some feeling they did not get the money awarded to them through the NRPAI by the Sports Council. There have been arguments over carding, team managment, development of the sport and strategic planning, paralympic shooting and other important subjects. The thread here about the 2004 NRPAI AGM is an important example of why noone can trust the NRPAI. Without prior notice, the entire structure of the association was changed, with voting rights being openly and cynically abused to do it in a duplicitious, underhanded, subversive manner. One agenda was circulated to the members; another was actually followed on the day. The written constitution of the NRPAI was ignored by the AGM's proceedings, and those who objected were dismissed out of hand. Even now, two years later, the NRPAI has not addressed this gross abuse of their own rules and still misrepresents itself as the SSAI to all and sundry. Ignoring the fact that the actions taken at the AGM invalidated it as a rightly constituted meeting, and that that invalidation rendered a joke any motion passed there, does not make those facts go away; nor will it make people forget them. And the threats made against the NTSA by the NRPAI, not only in previous years, but actually put forward by one of their men in the 2005 NTSA AGM, where it was threatened that the NRPAI would simply sweep the NTSA aside and take over, are sufficient reason alone to warrant an immediate disassociation from that body by all right-thinking people.

Representing the interests of the NRPAI at an NTSA AGM is not something you should be doing, especially not as an NTSA member. If the NRPAI wish to attend the NTSA AGM, let them do so officially, and not though this fake "grass-roots" campaign of yours. And let the AGM be run honestly. Let's not embrace the technically legal approach of registering any random body (a sister, a parent, a wife who plays no role in the sport, etc) as an NTSA member and attaching their proxy to you, since that approach is utterly berift of good faith in the operation of the sport.

We're in a sport unique for it's brutal honesty. Aim the shotgun, rifle or pistol, pull the trigger. Then either you hit the target or you don't. And everyone sees. You can't hide from it by saying that some judge gave you low marks for unsporting reasons. You can't say that your teammates let you down but you had a great game. You can't say that the referee was blind or biased. You can't say that anything other than your own skill was responsible for the good or bad score from that shot. That's the beauty of this sport, it's a fundamental part of the attraction to it for all I've spoken to, and to me it's one of the highest ideals of the sport.

It is not in keeping with the sport to ignore that ideal when it comes time to organise things. It is in keeping to organise things so that they are fair, open, transparant and treat all equally. Right now we do not do this. It's time we did.

Kryten

While I detest the politics we currently experience in the shooting representitive bodies, I sort of understand the problems.
I can honestly say from a shooters point of view, what we need from the whole shooting fraternity is a back to basics approach to shooting as a sport. We all like different types of shooting. Some clay pidgeon, some ISSF Style rifle and pistol, some gallery rifle, silouettes, benchrest, PPC and IPSC. However, the people involved in all these branches of our sport are relatively few in number (if you compare to golf, GAA, basketball etc...) so theoretically one governing body should be able to run this. Appoint your sub-committes for each discipline by all means, but all under the umberella of a single organisation. They solely would recieve the grants from the sporting bodies and fairly distribute these grants to wherever they are most needed.

Maybe I am over simplifing things or talking total rubbish, but we have to put the past behind us. Sparks, you keep bringing up issues between yourself, the NTSA and te NRPAI as it was known, but look at your own shooting teams. Young blood! new members! same goes for us in the non ISSF disciplines. We need to bury the past and move on. Whats done is done, nobodys perfect and it is human to make mistakes.

I dont know, maybe if you split this from the main thread and title it "what would you do to improve the shooting community"? But that is the bottom line. We need to unite as a community in some way. Sure I like PPC type shooting, but I would also like to train in ISSF style pistol. I know the ISSF and the other pistol organisations dont get on at an international level, but who cares really. They are mutually exclusive events.

Anyway what do people think ? I am just sick of the pointless bickering!

Dvs

Kryten wrote:

While I detest the politics we currently experience in the shooting representitive bodies, I sort of understand the problems.
I can honestly say from a shooters point of view, what we need from the whole shooting fraternity is a back to basics approach to shooting as a sport. We all like different types of shooting. Some clay pidgeon, some ISSF Style rifle and pistol, some gallery rifle, silouettes, benchrest, PPC and IPSC. However, the people involved in all these branches of our sport are relatively few in number (if you compare to golf, GAA, basketball etc...) so theoretically one governing body should be able to run this. Appoint your sub-committes for each discipline by all means, but all under the umberella of a single organisation. They solely would recieve the grants from the sporting bodies and fairly distribute these grants to wherever they are most needed.

Maybe I am over simplifing things or talking total rubbish, but we have to put the past behind us. Sparks, you keep bringing up issues between yourself, the NTSA and te NRPAI as it was known, but look at your own shooting teams. Young blood! new members! same goes for us in the non ISSF disciplines. We need to bury the past and move on. Whats done is done, nobodys perfect and it is human to make mistakes.

I dont know, maybe if you split this from the main thread and title it "what would you do to improve the shooting community"? But that is the bottom line. We need to unite as a community in some way. Sure I like PPC type shooting, but I would also like to train in ISSF style pistol. I know the ISSF and the other pistol organisations dont get on at an international level, but who cares really. They are mutually exclusive events.

Anyway what do people think ? I am just sick of the pointless bickering!

Now Now Kryten,
Don't you try and bring reason and sense to the shooting forum!:D

Maybe a new Sticky thread entitled:

Sparks Pram!
Toys in or out today, you decide?

And Tireur,
Please stop winding Sparks up into rant mode,
it takes to long to scroll through his posts!

Dvs.

Sparks

Kryten wrote:

They solely would recieve the grants from the sporting bodies and fairly distribute these grants to wherever they are most needed.

Kryten, you just described the original job description of the NRPAI. Problem was, that job description wasn't followed, and just ignoring things will only mean that they'll happen again. If there was actual, real, change - well, then that'd be different. But right now the NRPAI is only a private club and there is no way to guarantee that they will follow even their own written rules. Fix that, and you have a start towards one body.

Frankly, though, I'm more and more convinced that what we need is not more organisations, but less, and not more at a national level, but less. We have too few clubs, too few shooters and too few coaches and too few teams. That ought to be our national priority, not stifling dissent.

I know the ISSF and the other pistol organisations dont get on at an international level, but who cares really. They are mutually exclusive events.

For a shooter, that's perfectly correct - after all, one of the better PPC shooters in this country was on the NTSA committee this year. The problem lies in when the two organisations get linked at an organisational level - at that point, the threat of derecognition is raised by ISSF and should that happen, we could not send a team to a World Cup, a World Championships, any Continental Championships or the Olympic Games. That's rather a big wallop to give to the ISSF shooters, so it's not something we could risk.

But yes, it could be gotten around using the umbrella body approach - but you'd need to be sure you could trust the umbrella body. And right now we can't. And obviously, those at the top aren't sick of the bickering, but seem to thrive on it, as they're simply ignoring the problems. Blaming those who point out the problems - blaming the xray for the broken bone - is bad enough; actually ignoring the problems themselves, no matter how they're raised, that's a far more serious problem. Until that's gone, we won't get better.

Clash

I sort of promised myself after last year, that I wouldn't get dragged into this argument yet again, but there you go. :rolleyes:

However I will restrict myself to this one post; hopefully

A goodly chunk of the motions before us this year, were either rejected or withdrawn last year. They are nearly word for word the same motions. Now I ask myself, if the motion was withdrawn, because it was incorrectly worded, or not applicable, why is it coming up again? If it was rejected by the membership, same question...

Is this a case of "we will abide by the decision of the membership, so long as it agrees with us?" Reminds me a bit of the Single European Act fiasco. "yiz got it wrong lads, so we'll give yiz another chance"

Secondly, Sparks keeps referring to 'head office'. It's very convenient to use this term because it conjures up an image of faceless pen pushers in a remote office with nothing else to do all day but reject "really great ideas (tm)". The truth is a little less comfortable for those who like to demonise 'they who stand in the way of progress and RGI (tm)'. 'Head Office' refers to a small group of eight people just like ourselves, with the same work and family commitments, who voluntarily and cheerfully give up their spare time to run ISSF shooting isn this country.

Now I know this will elicit a chorus of "If they don't have the time, they shouldn't take it on" responses, but then I would ask, where are the people who were to volunteer for the extra posts that were created at the last AGM? Nowhere, that's where they are. I didn't see too many jumping up with their hands in the air at the last AGM, and yet here we are looking to create seven new posts and two new committees. We're just overflowing with volunteers, willing to offer their time and energy to the furtherance of our sport..... not

So before you start throwing stones around and looking for people to blame for "the sad and sorry state of our sport today (tm)", start by asking would you take the job on?, and are you willing to give up your spare time, family and job commitments, so that those of us who are comfortably sitting on the sidelines can smugly berate you ad infinitum for your failings.

Anyone who wants to take issue with what I'm saying, please do. I am not going to get into a nit-picking tit for tat argument with anyone about this. I am opening up an apect that hasn't really been touched on, and I lay no claim to a greater insight into the situation than anyone else on here.

Sparks

Clash, that dog won't hunt. If there's too few volunteers, why did the NTSA not want to seek more after the 2004 AGM? I was at the table for that decision, so I know it was made (and I voted against it at the time). If there's too few, why does the top table ignore any help? And we've seen that help ignored, from both sides of the closed doors that head office sit behind.

And I did take that job on, and so did others in the WTSC, and we did put our shoulders to the wheel for the good of all, in good faith and with a considerable amount of hard work and sacrifice. We got burned for it, as recounted here earlier and that is now cited as being a reason why our complaints are invalid. So if we hadn't volunteered, we'd be hurlers on the ditch, but because we did, we're just whingers who didn't get their way. Nice setup for head office if you ask me.

As to "If it was rejected by the membership, same question...", the question we're asking is who rejected it and why? And should that rejection count when the bulk of the votes that carried it were from proxies of people who don't own firearms, have never taken part in a match, and had no real interest in one? If the ballot box is stuffed, is the vote fair?

rrpc

That was 2004 Sparks, I think Clash is referring to the 2005 AGM, at which I wasn't present. Although I was told afterwards that nobody volunteered for the new posts that were created in 2005, which bears out his point.

If you're going to argue a point, can't you argue the same one? :eek:






A true Kerryman wouldn't be on here right now, they'd be up in Croke Park watching the match

Clash

Sparks wrote:

And I did take that job on, and so did others in the WTSC, and we did put our shoulders to the wheel for the good of all

I agree you had your shoulder to the wheel alright Sparks, but you were pushing in the opposite direction. Isn't that why you were voted off the committee?

If the ballot box is stuffed, is the vote fair?

So, if you can't play the ball, you'll just play the man. Most of the votes that I saw at the AGM were won by a 2:1 majority or thereabouts, are you suggesting that one third of the membership is false?

Or for those not aware of the numbers, instead of 107'ish members we really only have about 70.

In any event, all the members of the committee were returned unopposed, which means that not one person who felt that they were not doing their job even attempted to oppose them to push the decision to a vote. And nobody put themselves forward for an appointed position either.

To qoute your own off-repeated mantra, "you can't blame the x-ray for the broken bone". In this case, you are blaming a short-handed committee for not carrying out the tasks you set them with your carried motions, even though no-one from your club volunteered to take up the positions that were required by those very motions.

So I return to my first point. If you didn't take your own motions seriously enough to put people forward to help carry them out, how do you expect anyone else to take them seriously this time? Especially since you have now almost trebled them, and have doubled the size of the committee.

I suspect Sparks, that you have no interest in the NTSA unless and until you have complete control over it and it's decisions.