Ntsa Agm 2006

tireur

phantom_lord wrote:

Are you against them purely because you believe sparks wrote them?

I am not against them because Sparks wrote them. I am against them because of their volume, content, immaturity, negative effect on the image of shooting and the negative effect they have on the image of WTSC.

Sparks

tireur wrote:

The motions are not what impacts the shooting community in general.

tireur, two posts later wrote:

I am against them because of their ... content

Make your mind up, would you?

And again, stop making out that these motions are anything other than a serious highlighting of serious problems with the administration of ISSF rifle and pistol shooting in this country as carried out by the NTSA, drafted and submitted in the proper manner by the Wilkinstown Target Shooting Club.

demonloop

Does this go down as the catfight of all catfights? This is better than Emmerdale at the minute

tireur

Sparks wrote:

Make your mind up, would you?

And again, stop making out that these motions are anything other than a serious highlighting of serious problems with the administration of ISSF rifle and pistol shooting in this country as carried out by the NTSA, drafted and submitted in the proper manner by the Wilkinstown Target Shooting Club.

You still don't get it do you? These two statements are perfectly compatible.

tireur

Act 1

It is 2005. A solitary target shooters stalks off home after being thoroughly trounced at an annual meeting. All winter he broods until the following September.

Act 11
It is September 2006. The member produces a list in "stream of conscienceness" fashion, (like Ulysses). The list contains his observations, thoughts, hopes, in fact it contains the random utterances of his troubled brain.

Act 111

The member goes to his club committee and says
"hello boys, do you think we should have another go at that lot who do not share my peculiar view of the world"
"Right so" say his fellow members of the committee, "you do up the list and we will send it"-
"funny you should say that, I just happen to have one with me"
"OK so but do you think we should get the approval of the members as this is a serious business?"
"No" says the member," they are not interested and will do what we tell them anyway "
"Right so, we will send it in"

Any resemblance to any persons, living or dead, is purely co-incidental.

tireur

demonloop wrote:

Does this go down as the catfight of all catfights? This is better than Emmerdale at the minute

Miaow you are right DL.
This thread has long surpassed the thread on the same topic last year(in quantity, not quality) Last year the thread ended with 122 posts and 1495 views. So far we have reached 156 posts and 1912 views. Sparks, what was it we agreed on how long we should keep the thread running?

Sparks

You're still trying to paint those motions as being a single person's submission Tireur. Are you going to waste precious time in the AGM with the same silly notion, I wonder?

tireur

Sparks, how on earth do you have the cheek to talk about "waisting time at the AGM" after submitting your ridiculous list of motions?
.

Sparks

Tireur, these motions are very serious. They've been put forward collectively by a very serious and dedicated club of very successful and committed shooters and represent a collection of very serious problems with the administration of the sport in Ireland. They need to be addressed in a serious manner. So timewasters like yourself simply aren't going to help the situation.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

these motions are very serious.

I agree with you that there is something serious about the motions Sparks but what they show is that something is seriously wrong with the motivation of the person that produced them. Who do you think you are kidding, other than yourself? If they were serious, they would have been much edited and refined down to the important issues. But this was not done. What we were presented with was a long and personal series of whinges and snide remarks. What you have achieved is to bury any serious issues inside an envelope of drivel. We both know what will happen at the AGM. All of the drivel will be dismissed at the start of the meeting and then the serious shooters will discuss serious issues and how to fix them. You have no part to play in this.

Sparks

Again tireur, you're wasting precious time with this notion that these motions are not a collective submission by the Wilkinstown target shooting club. I suggest that the AGM would run better if timewasters like yourself who have nothing to add to the substantive debate we need simply remain at home with your personal attacks which do nothing to benefit the sport as a whole, but seek only to attack one section of it for the benefit of another.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

do nothing to benefit the sport as a whole, but seek only to attack one section of it for the benefit of another.

How can you again have the cheek to say this? I refer you back to the "Olympic Coaches" thread" from last year where is was shown that this was your modus operandum, not mine.
BTW which section has been attacked and which section is supposed to benefit?

Sparks

Tireur, we simply don't have the time in the AGM to engage in long-winded personal attacks and other spurious dross. We have serious business to discuss in there, crucial to the long-term and short-term futures of the sport, with some very dedicated people committed to finding solutions to the very real problems the sport is facing. Your brand of divisive whitehall politics does nothing for our sport and in fact is a disservice to every competitive and recreational shooter in the sport. I would recommend that you focus your efforts on issues which will benefit the sport as a whole, rather than this wasteful squandering of what are obviously copious amounts of time and effort on your own personal vendetta.

tireur

My God, Sparks has gone noble.I am doubled up laughing at the sheer incongruity of such sentiments coming from you. I am sure that all of those who know you are equally convulsed. If you really mean what you have just said, why did you submit your drivel list? You are right about serious business being discussed but this will exclude you. You have consistently shown that you are not a team player. Your inability to cooperate with others and to achieve the tasks assigned to you means that you are unlikely to be involved in the solution. If you really are thinking along the lines of your last post then stay away from the meeting, resign from any committees you are on and keep shooting. Your scores might become reasonable and the whole shooting community will benefit. Even I am now bored with your evasiveness and/or inability to answer any questions. I am however delighted with the new moral approach you have tried in the last days. Bye for now Sparks and we will see what we will see on Saturday in UCD.

Sparks

Oh dear. It would appear that the very thought of serious discussion of actual problems has been too much for our tireur, who has retreated to thoughts of nobility. Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote:

Oh dear. It would appear that the very thought of serious discussion of actual problems has been too much for our tireur, who has retreated to thoughts of nobility. Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

Well 23rd – day, and hopefully sense will prevail, I have observed the exchanges over recent weeks with respect to the proposed agenda for the NTSA meeting.

You know Sparks you tried it last year and got nowhere, this year clearly you have used WTSC as a trogon horse to get exactly the same points across, worse fools the members of WTSC for allowing you to abuse them.

1) To try and get the NTSA recognised as an NGB is not only impractical but makes no sense at all, the ISC have a stated policy to deal with less NGB’s and the concept of fragmenting shooting sports is clearly something that will go nowhere, the sooner people see this the better, you have a passionate hatred for SSAI (NRPAI) doesn’t matter what you call it same difference.
2) I am amazed that the WTSC endorse your amendments, it is inconceivable that any club would have so many proposals, in all my experience which is vast of dealing with clubs, to get them to propose any recommendations for change would be indeed remarkable, tieure is indeed absolutely correct, you sparks are using the club to put forward points to the NTSA AGM which are yours are yours alone, total crap if you say anything else.
3) Hopefully the membership will do as they did last year and throw out all your proposals, there may be some merit in some of them but they are so tied up in crap that they have totally lost any credibility.
4) A fanatic is a person who has lost sight of their original objective for the sake of getting their personal agenda through, I am afraid sparks looking at your position this is indeed the case.
5) Sparks you need help, not help from anyone in the shooting community but professional help! Seek it, get it and when you are rehabilitated maybe someone will listen to your point of view.

civdef

Bob, that's crossed the line into personal abuse. Take a week off to cool down.

How do people get so excited over club politics? Wouldn't ye all rather just go shooting?

Kryten

Here Here, The object of the game is to get all your rounds in the 10X. Now go and Practice!!!! Leave the politics to the politicians.

Kramer

Well, what happened at this AGM anyway.......or are the motions still being debated?

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote:

1) To try and get the NTSA recognised as an NGB is not only impractical but makes no sense at all, the ISC have a stated policy to deal with less NGB’s and the concept of fragmenting shooting sports is clearly something that will go nowhere

I should point out that this has not stopped the ISC from recognising seperately groups which were originally a part of a larger umbrella body where a valid case is made; for example, even though there is a Martial Arts umbrella body for governing the various sports, the Olympic martial arts of TaeKwonDo and Judo are both recognised seperately.

NTSA

Kramer wrote:

Well, what happened at this AGM anyway.......or are the motions still being debated?

Well, first off these are just quick highlights - the full minutes of the meeting are still being prepared by the outgoing secretary but they may take a while to be fully collated.

The minutes of the last AGM were contested; the outgoing board's recollection of events differed significantly from that of other attendees at the 2005 AGM on two points relating to the election of Children's and Antidoping officers.

Reports were presented from the discipline coordinators for smallbore and airgun. Considerable heated debate took place over events that took place at the Nationals this year where it was felt by WTSC that the rules had been unfair to one of their shooters who would otherwise have made Irish shooting history by winning the overall, ladies and junior's titles in one match (instead she won the overall and the junior's titles, not being able to enter the ladies' match). An apology for the confusion over the rules was given by the NTSA board.

The PRO sent in a resignation letter, and after examination for libellous material, it was read out, with a clarification being made that the latter half of the letter did not relate to myself in particular.

The secretary gave a comprehensive and detailed report on correspondences and attendance at meetings and also on his efforts in the role of collegiate officer.

The paralympic officer sent a report in which was read out by the secretary and indicated a considerable body of work was being undertaken, but that the paralympic officer was unfortunately unable to volunteer again this year.

The chairman's report began by giving the sympathies of the NTSA to the family and friends of Paddy Ashe, a founding member of the NTSA. A minutes' silence was observed. Disappointment was expressed at the polarised situation that had built up in the NTSA over the past two years. The loan to DRC to build a new 50m firing point was explained to the membership.

The treasurers report indicated that the NTSA's finances have been somewhat depleted from approximately ¬18k to approximately ¬4k this year, and the NTSA share of the ISC grant has actually fallen from last year despite the ISC grant rising by 22% in the interim.

Ten minutes break was then observed. During this time, since several of the motions were dealt with by the outgoing committee through full reports on the areas being enquired into by the motions, WTSC withdrew motions 5,7,9,26,27,28,30,32,35,36,41,45,48,49,65,68, and 71.

Before the motions were discussed, it was acknowleged by the NTSA board that the WTSC motions were in fact the motions drafted and submitted by WTSC and not the motions of any one person in particular. This was later referred to by the board and by WTSC when it was demanded by an NTSA member that the person who drafted a motion be identified.

The Children's Policy motions were voted on and passed unanimously. Motions 18 through 22 were discussed, the questions therein answered by the board and the motions subsequently withdrawn by WTSC.

(Note that I don't have the precise order in which the following motions were considered; the full minutes will)

Motion 10 was amended to post the NTSA committee meeting minutes to the chairmen of all the affiliated NTSA clubs, voted on and passed.

Motion 56 was not debated extensively. Technical points on how the classification of smallbore shooters is done were made and the motion was withdrawn.

Motion 59 was voted on and passed.

Motion 61 was discussed extensively. Amendments were made to permit nominations from the floor on the day of the AGM if none had been made prior to this, and a vote was called but defeated by 4 votes.

Motions 1 and 2 saw debate on the fundamental purpose of the NTSA, but were then ruled out of order by the chairman.

Motion 23 was debated and saw heated exchanges. No vote was called due to time constraints. It was agreed at this point on the suggestion of WTSC to proceed with the election of officers and to return to the remainder of the motions in a further general meeting at a later date.

Officers were then elected.
Liam Crawford was nominated by WTSC for Chairman and elected unanimously.
The post of ViceChairman received no nominations, the outgoing vice-chairman retiring from the NTSA after a long and successful period in office.
Anthony Corballis of UCD was elected as Treasurer, the outgoing treasurer retiring from the NTSA after an equally long and successful period in office.
Mark Dennehy of WTSC was elected as secretary.
Geoff Cooney of WTSC was elected as Air Rifle Coordinator.
Kealan Symes of RRPC was elected as Target Rifle Coordinator.
The post of Smallbore Pistol coordinator received no nominations.
Ray Kane was elected as Fullbore Coordinator.
The post of PRO received no nominations.
Those posts left vacant and other posts will see volunteers sought and co-opted to the board in the coming weeks.
Volunteers for some of those other posts were nominated and accepted at the meeting - Brendan Doherty of UCD was nominated as Collegiate officer and Marina Cunningham of WTSC was nominated as Children's Officer.

Finally, I want to make it very clear that these are simply preliminary notes, not the official minutes of the meeting; those are still being prepared.

Leupold

Congratulations Sparks on your rapprochement with the NTSA and your appointment as secretary to the NTSA committee.Does this mean that all of the things you said about them in the past are untrue? Does it also mean that they can do no wrong in the future?
I would also like to know if we will see a fine sock puppet demonstration here resulting from your two roles?


QUOTE NTSA "Folks, to prevent any possible confusion, an announcement - this NTSA account will be used for making any and all official NTSA statements on the board. There won't be a huge number of them other than event announcements I hope. I will continue to post as Sparks, but in my role as moderator of the board and as a private person. Just so noone gets confused and thinks that a Sparks post is an NTSA position or anything. "

Will we see "Sparks" attacking the NTSA and "NTSA" defending them?

Sparks

Does this mean that all of the things you said about them in the past are untrue? Does it also mean that they can do no wrong in the future?

No. What it means is that at the AGM the outgoing NTSA board offered apologies for things which had happened in the past year or so which had caused grievances to arise between them and WTSC, and they made several changes to NTSA policy (such as the decision to recommend that the National Championships format be reverted back to the format of seperate Championships at the end of seperate seasons for air and smallbore). This was sufficient action by them for us to believe that we could work with the incoming board and achieve more by setting aside those differences that had been addressed by the outgoing board and working on the rest over the coming year. It doesn't mean that what caused the original grievances were invalid; just that we thought that we had a better chance to fix things this way.

I would also like to know if we will see a fine sock puppet demonstration here resulting from your two roles?

No, because the NTSA account is a group account for the NTSA board to use - it's not just me who will have access to it. And mostly it's intended to be used to post notice of events or the like anyway.

rrpc

Leupold wrote:

Congratulations Sparks on your rapprochement with the NTSA and your appointment as secretary to the NTSA committee.Does this mean that all of the things you said about them in the past are untrue? Does it also mean that they can do no wrong in the future?

It is to Sparks' credit that he has been able to put the past behind him and move forward on a new committee for the good of the sport in general.

I would hope that people here will be able to do the same..

Leupold

Well said RRPC and Sparks. In the new team spirit of cooperation can we also look forward to Sparks calling the SSAI the SSAI and perhaps, best of all, keeping his posts organisational and technical and leaving the politics alone? If so , then we can look forward this forum being a much nicer to place to browse and post as I think that most posters on politics have been drawn to that mode by comments made by Sparks in the past.

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

It is to Sparks' credit that he has been able to put the past behind him and move forward on a new committee for the good of the sport in general.

I would hope that people here will be able to do the same..

As an 'uninvolved' spectator to all this, I would like to wholeheartedly endorse this sentiment.

.

civdef

Damn ye all to hell. I lost a lot of money betting on a split.

Sparks

You don't half want jam on it, do you Leupold?

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

It is to Sparks' credit that he has been able to put the past behind him and move forward on a new committee for the good of the sport in general.

I would hope that people here will be able to do the same..

Well done guys hopefully the future of the sport is brighter now

johnkeeney

Pity I didn't pay up and make it to the agm this year, sounds like some serious progress is being made.

Congratulations and good luck to the new committee, it looks very strong and more than capable of tackling the big issues ... as well as the multitude of small ones. (I have a list when you've made progress on the obvious ones :-)

So if yer all finished pulling each others hair, get back to work!