Expo Centre possibility?

AB03

Hello all,

Just wondering how likely it could be that a public entertainment licence would be granted for an expo centre type building somewhere in the dublin commuter belt?
As in, if I were to purchase a piece of land, of a few acres in size, erect some buildings suitable for the staging of concerts, musicians, shows, festivals etc, how likely is it that I would be granted a licence to operate the premises legally, and serve alcohol, given the consent of neighbours within earshot (if any) of course?
And more importantly, how would one go about applying for such licences in the first place?

Are they granted as temporary only or are perm ones availiable?

What are the time restrictions placed on such events also?
Are they limited to pub/club opening hours, eg, 2.30am region?
Would it be possible to rent an existing piece of land/farmland with suitable structures in place and use that, with the owners consent and express permission obviously?
Just pondering, sorry for all the questions, any input greatly appreciated!
Cheers!

AB03

Sorry if this is the wrong forum btw mods

DeVore

Might be better off in one of the Biz category forums.... not really sure which though.

DeV.

AB03

cheers dev

hullaballoo

Copied over from Legal Discussion to Business & Economy & Finance.

Slice

Okay I don't have specific details heres so some of what I say may be off but here goes anyway;

Some time ago it was widely reported that a well known private property developer (I don't recall his name) had started construction on a development he intended as a National Conference Centre. It was somewhere along the M50 around Citywest Business Park and included with these plans were additional projects in the same development such as a hotel etc to complement it.

What was controversial about it was that he was actually declined planning permission for the conference centre (though not including all of the other projects in the same development) because it was an inapporpriate location and lacking in sufficient public transport infrastructure, furthermore the Docklands was meant to be the location for the National Conference Centre.

He went ahead with the construction of it anyway thinking that he would get planning permission granted on a retrospective basis (as happens so often in this country). He didn't and was forced to dismantle it halfway from completion.

I know that this doesn't really fit what your proposing and what I've said is lacking in detail but it's probably not a bad thing to keep in mind considering what you're suggesting. That, along with the controversy over land rezoning in west Dublin that resulted in Liffey Valley being built, the Mahon Tribunal and changes in retail regulations to allow for an Ikea in Ballymun would indicate that such an idea would be hard to get off the ground without you becoming the next Ray Burke.

AB03

Slice wrote:

That, along with the controversy over land rezoning in west Dublin that resulted in Liffey Valley being built, the Mahon Tribunal and changes in retail regulations to allow for an Ikea in Ballymun would indicate that such an idea would be hard to get off the ground without you becoming the next Ray Burke.

lol, I was actually thinking a little further afield, probably surrounding counties but considering the research Ive gathered thus far this looks like a right minefield. Still though, I'll keep it in mind, its an interesting idea...

antoinolachtnai

No, this is basically not a flier.

You cannot just go around erecting buildings without permission (unless you're Jim Mansfield, and even he has to take them down sometimes).

You can't just have public entertainment in a barn. It doesn't work that way. You have to have fire clearance, access, and all sorts of other bureaucratic things.

Maybe you are too young to remember Stardust ...

AB03

I think you misunderstand, any venue Id be interested in erecting would be far from a barn and would have to clear fire regulations at whatever cost obviously.
Id also want planning permission approved, Im talking about the possibility of doing this 100% legitimately.
I also know all about the stardust tragedy btw....

antoinolachtnai

Well, the land is probably zoned agricultural for a start. So that would be the first obstacle.

The next thing is going to be access. If there is a national road nearby, who knows, it might be a possibility.

Then you have to look at the commercials. Realistically, how many times a year would you hope to fill this thing and how much would you make each time? Who would want to go to this venue? How many people would be within 45 minutes drive? Where would employees come from. Your bare minimum investment here is going to be around three million euros. The interest on that is 120 grand a year. The rates might be another 50 or 60. To make the whole thing fly you would have to be hiring it out for quite a few times a month.

I actually wasn't joking about the barn. Go out and see Jim Mansfield's erection near citywest. It's basically a half-built, very big barn. I'm sure it would end up with a bunch of fancy fitments inside but that's basically what it is. Similarly, the Point is basically a train depot. It has been dressed up somewhat, but that's basically what it is.

Is certainly possible, but requires a lot of thinking!

AB03

Funny you mentioned 3 million, I reckoned that would be a safe estimate aswell.
To be viable it would have to be done by a consortium of newer smaller players in the market (not pod/mean fiddler/"etc"...) in my opinion.
I think a few times a month is hugely exaggerated.
Think about this, some *very* rough numbers....

Avg. 8 one day events in a year, capacity 15,000 (+/- 5k) = approx 120,000 ticket holders a year
Approx ticket price per event, €85 = €10.2m/year, €1.275m/event
Approx event costs incl. acts but excl. interest (per event) = €600k-€900k
Breakdown:
Acts : €100k-€200k
Security : €20k
Sound managment/hire/engineering/setup : €100k+
Event managment staff : €40k
Various : €200k

Approx profit per event : €300k-€600k per event
@ 8 events a year : €2.4m-€4.8m a year

Now I know each of those figures are crazy estimates and are nowhere near based in reality, but Im also fairly sure, that with land purchased and the legal go ahead, I could stage a semi-major electronic music event with that kind of budget, and would quite likely sell it out at that ticket price.

Land could probably be purchased for about €1m, circa 1 hour from dublin, and in the region of 20-40 acres. Provided planning permission etc. was granted, which is basically my query in the first place, would it be?

eg:
www.daft.ie/56686
www.daft.ie/56401
www.daft.ie/56394



This is all just mad speculation on my part, so before anyone starts ranting about whether this, that, or the other can or cant be done,this is just something I could be interested in doing over the next few years, if it is at all possible, so Im just randomly seeking any info anyone may have on the subject and any sensible input is greatly appreciated, cheers!!!

antoinolachtnai

15,000 people! That is a lot of people. You are looking at a venue at least 60000 square meters, probably nearer 120,000 square meters I would imagine.

On the face of it, 60,000 square meters would cost you bare minimum 25 million to build, maybe 50 million if you want it slightly higher spec. Again, these are kickaround numbers. (See http://www.warehousematch.com/link.asp?id=27 for where I got them.)

You are looking at an interest bill of 9 million a year if it cost you 50m to build. Even at 25 million, you're looking at 4.5 million a year. If you did manage to get the zoning, you'd be better off building apartments. (not as much fun though)

You would also need to get a road built to handle five thousand vehicles exiting your property in the middle of the night. This would probably have to be at least three lanes, more realistically four, and off the top of my head you'd be looking at 3 or 5 million a mile, excluding land costs. To justify this, you'd have to build other amenities at your location. While you were at it, you should consider asking a small government department to relocate to your, ahem, town. Seriously. It worked for Knock Airport.

The reason this land is so cheap is the zoning. With any zoning other than ag., any of this land is worth maybe half a million an acre, maybe more.

How do you change the zoning? You go to the planners, spend a lot of money on professional fees, and convince them, or else you go to the councillors and get them to push through a material contravention. While you are waiting, you have to pay the interest bill, and grazing a few sucklers isn't going to cut it.

So the way you would do this would be to buy an option on the land (say an option to buy the land at .5 million/acre within 12 years). You pay maybe 5000/acre for this option. You get options on at least 200 acres, at a cost of around a million euros (which is pretty cheap when you think of it, but it's not easy to get anyone to actually give you the cash) and then you try and get the whole thing rezoned. When you get it rezoned, around 2015, you go to the bank (the bank manager loves you this time, he apologises to you for all the things he said before and wants to be your best friend) and borrow EUR 100m and exercise the options as fast as you can. Then you sell the whole bloody lot for EUR 150m, pay off the bank, tell the bank guy where to stick his golf club and retire.

It will have taken you a lot of long days to get this far. You will have seen and done things that turn the political heroes of your youth into drunken laggards, demean the democratic and planning processes and go against everything you thought you believed in. You are now 45 and have been through two divorces and have four children you hardly know. (If on the other hand, you don't get it rezoned and it gets compulsory-purchased as a national park or something, well, it would be better think about something pleasant, like World War 3.)

If at this stage you are still interested in opening the venue, you ring your mate John (still a young man), or Jim (getting on a bit, probably too old, are we still allowed mention Jim on boards.ie?), or mabe even Harry or Louis (now well into their sixties) and ask if they're interested in opening a venue with you for a bit of a gas. You all kick in a few million, borrow a few from your banker 'friend', build an impressive venue, with one eye on the capacity and the other on the size of the VIP area. Peaches Geldof plays her final gig ever for the opening. Her proud daddy cries in the relative privacy of the wheelchair area.

Can all be done, but you gotta think big!

Victor

Antoin, you should see your doctor, I think the cynacism is getting to you.

AB03

antoinolachtnai wrote:

So the way you would do this would be to buy an option on the land (say an option to buy the land at .5 million/acre within 12 years). You pay maybe 5000/acre for this option. You get options on at least 200 acres, at a cost of around a million euros (which is pretty cheap when you think of it, but it's not easy to get anyone to actually give you the cash) and then you try and get the whole thing rezoned. When you get it rezoned, around 2015, you go to the bank (the bank manager loves you this time, he apologises to you for all the things he said before and wants to be your best friend) and borrow EUR 100m and exercise the options as fast as you can. Then you sell the whole bloody lot for EUR 150m, pay off the bank, tell the bank guy where to stick his golf club and retire.

It will have taken you a lot of long days to get this far. You will have seen and done things that turn the political heroes of your youth into drunken laggards, demean the democratic and planning processes and go against everything you thought you believed in. You are now 45 and have been through two divorces and have four children you hardly know. (If on the other hand, you don't get it rezoned and it gets compulsory-purchased as a national park or something, well, it would be better think about something pleasant, like World War 3.)

If at this stage you are still interested in opening the venue, you ring your mate John (still a young man), or Jim (getting on a bit, probably too old, are we still allowed mention Jim on boards.ie?), or mabe even Harry or Louis (now well into their sixties) and ask if they're interested in opening a venue with you for a bit of a gas. You all kick in a few million, borrow a few from your banker 'friend', build an impressive venue, with one eye on the capacity and the other on the size of the VIP area. Peaches Geldof plays her final gig ever for the opening. Her proud daddy cries in the relative privacy of the wheelchair area.

Can all be done, but you gotta think big!

Brilliant lol!!

AB03

So then, out of interest, what would the land have to be zoned as to qualify for this type of usage?
Is there a list of all zoning types online that I can look at anywhere?
Cheers, for reply antoin, quite interesting hehehe

antoinolachtnai

If you look in the county development plan you will see listings of the different types of zoning. The one you are trying to get rid of is 'agricultural'. The one you really want if you plan to make money is 'commercial' or 'residential'. You could get away with something like 'recreational' for what you have in mind. But just because you have the zoning doesn't mean you'll get the planning.

There is a nice site with recreational zoning for sale in Dublin 6 at the moment if you are interested:

http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/recreation_and_culture/parks/dartmouth_square.asp

Would be perfect for the odd rave.

Slice

It's just like Monopoly