FF/PD's unfairly taking all the credit for Celtic Tiger

Shutuplaura

This might have been debated to death here at an earlier date but I'm still curious to here what people think....

OK, I admit I'm not exactly in love with the current government but leaving aside all of its failures for a second, they have been at the helm during an unprecidented boom in the economy.

However, I'm wondering, are they taking undue credit for the Celtic Tiger/Celtic Tiger II? The country was doing well when they took office in 1997. How much credit can the rainbow take for this? As a blueshirt my thinking is that the rainbow isn't getting its fair due for what it did during the mid 1990's and that FF claims that an FG return to government would be a disaster for the economy are a load of bull. Is this the case or are my political loyalies clouding my judgement? Did the rainbow just continue what the government of Albert Reynolds (or even Charile Haughey) began?

mike65

My mother is the only person not to have sought credit for the celtic tiger at this stage!

No one party or group can claim the economic boom as thiers. Some will give greatest credit to 60s education policies, some will say the 1992 punt devaluation is the cause, others the 10% corpation tax rate, yet more will cite the reduction in direct personal taxes, the liberalisation of markets within Ireland can be considered part of the mix as can the demographic bulge which created both workers and consumers in larger numbers. I'd say all the above made some diference.

Who created it is'nt important what matters is not screwing it up.

Mike.

Shutuplaura

True...but it seems to me that the implication in a lot of message being circulated by the government parties is that only they created it so only they are fit to manage it now. Again, I'm sure I'm a bit biased but that seems to be highly questionable

Cork

I think that the PDs & FF have managed the economy pretty well.

Just look at the tax surplus last week.

Much credit has to go to Charlie McCreevy - who had vision. He cut capital gains and personal taxation to the annoyance of the opposition.

Before Bertie took over - the Irish Peace Process was a mess. I think if the raindow was still in power - this coutry would be a far worse place.

A raindow government would also have lacked the bottle to introduce the citizenship referendum.

Cork

Cork wrote:

I think that the PDs & FF have managed the economy pretty well.

Just look at the tax surplus last week.

Much credit has to go to Charlie McCreevy - who had vision. He cut capital gains and personal taxation to the annoyance of the opposition.

I'll agree with you that the cutting of capital gains tax did a lot more good than harm: It rose the take from it as well as intoducing incentive to the flow of money into and out of worthwhile ventures.

Before Bertie took over - the Irish Peace Process was a mess.

It was a mess many times while Bertie was in power too...there were cycles and the likes of FF or FG were bottom of the list for blame there

I think if the raindow was still in power - this coutry would be a far worse place.

I'd say it would have been pretty much the same eg we'd still have the booming economy and the crap health service.

Shutuplaura

Citizenship Referendum?! Why does that have anything to do with my post? My question wasn't about how the current government is doing (could be better, could be a hell of a lot worse is my opinion on that) but on whether they are hijacking all credit for creating the conditions for the boom. My own (probably biased) view is that it wasn't as if FF won the election in 1997 and suddenly everyone had loads of cash. Claiming sole credit for creating it is...i dunno, unjust is too strong a word and unfair seems a bit childish - just plain dishonest I supposed.

Cork

I don't know who or what was responsible. But a big factor was social partnership that Bertie played a big role in.

Over the last spell - the economy was managed well.

I would hate to single people out but credit has to go to Bertie, Charlie McCreevy, John Bruton, Ruari quinn, Albert, CJH, Ray McSharry and Alan Dukes.

FG deserves to be in opposition for 1000 years and a day for how they treated Alan Dukes.

Voipjunkie

Cork wrote:

I think that the PDs & FF have managed the economy pretty well.

Just look at the tax surplus last week.

Well if you look at it close enough it seems that a lot of the money is from property taxes ie stamp duty etc hardly something that is likely to continue that bubble is going to burst sooner or later
Also the surplus was partly due to the fact that they have not spent any of the money in compensation to the OAPs for nursing home charges yet once that money starts to roll out the figures will not look so good

Cork wrote:

Much credit has to go to Charlie McCreevy - who had vision. He cut capital gains and personal taxation to the annoyance of the opposition.

He could have done a much better job of making the tax system fairer McCreevey was a big fan of the tax incentives not just for the ponies but in building etc when no one needed any incentive to invest in property

And before we go slapping these people on the back lets not forget the state of some of our primary schools and children without schools
Our health service
Our transport service

Cork wrote:

Before Bertie took over - the Irish Peace Process was a mess. I think if the raindow was still in power - this coutry would be a far worse place.

Agreed we can all recall Bruton and the ****ing peace process

A raindow government would also have lacked the bottle to introduce the citizenship referendum.[/QUOTE]

Well I recently had the pleasure of visiting a maternity hospital and comparing it to the last time I was there which was before the citizenship referendum there were far more foreign nationals now than before
Ok so their children may not have an automatic right to citizenship but it has not stopped them from having children alot of the scaremongering before the citizenship referendum about our maternity hospitals being swamped was just that scaremongering the citizenship referendum did not stop these women becoming pregnant because the citizenship issue was not the reason they were becoming pregnant it was a bonus that is all.

Cork

Voipjunkie wrote:

McCreevey was a big fan of the tax incentives not just for the ponies but in building etc when no one needed any incentive to invest in property

The amout of student accomadation was badly needed.

Tax Incentives mean that students are not as dependant on slum landlords.

I think higher taxes to finance the public sector will no longer be tolerated in this country.

McCreevy cut taxes in his budgets. The miminium wage was also introduced by FF/PD.

A measure that was long needed.

Everyone unfairly takes all the credit for the Celtic Tiger, except the objectionable bits which are everyone else's fault. Such is the nature of Irish politics.

samb

mike65 wrote:

My mother is the only person not to have sought credit for the celtic tiger at this stage!

No one party or group can claim the economic boom as thiers. Some will give greatest credit to 60s education policies, some will say the 1992 punt devaluation is the cause, others the 10% corpation tax rate, yet more will cite the reduction in direct personal taxes, the liberalisation of markets within Ireland can be considered part of the mix as can the demographic bulge which created both workers and consumers in larger numbers. I'd say all the above made some diference.

Who created it is'nt important what matters is not screwing it up.

Mike.

Most of the credit should go to one, often forgotten group, WOMAN. Huge expansion of workforce coupled with reckless indulgent spending habits.
-and don't forget most of the driviers of commerce in the late 90's and early 00's would have been educated in the 80's-so it's a good job the cut-backs were not too dramatic.

There is a lag period after any policy being implemented and the effect on the economy. So in away FF/PD/FG/L/G can all take some credit.

Your mother may well deserve some credit

Voipjunkie

Cork wrote:

The amout of student accomadation was badly needed.

Tax Incentives mean that students are not as dependant on slum landlords.

I think higher taxes to finance the public sector will no longer be tolerated in this country.

McCreevy cut taxes in his budgets. The miminium wage was also introduced by FF/PD.

A measure that was long needed.

So you think that all that was built was student accomodation and that accounts for all the tax incentives

And I think that crappy public services like health education and transport will not be tolerated for long

And 34% rise in gas following the 25% increase last year combined with a 20% increase in Electricity following the huge hikes of the last couple of years
And lets not forget that this low tax Government is collecting 12.5% tax on those services as well much higher than the tax in the UK for example.

The notion of low taxes is just that what was done was we switched from moderate direct taxes to high indirect taxes and charges.

And just to keep this somewhat on topic everyone of us played our part in the celtic tiger it was hard work and luck not one political party or another

LostinBlanch

SAMB

you may be closer to the truth than you think. According to the David Bloom and David Canning of the School of Public Health at Harvard University the main catalyst was the legalisation of contraception in 79. In 1970 the average Irish woman had 3.9 kids in the 90's it was less than two. So in the pre legal conception 60's there were 14 people working for every 10 dependents, last year it was 22 working for every 10 dependents. So the tax take rises while the proportion spent on looking after dependents decreases. Ergo more money in the economy.

I can't take credit for finding all this out, unless you count reading Diarmuid Doyles article in todays Tribune . But you have to admit it's more plausible than the PDs invented the Celtic Tiger.

BTW it was David McWilliams who did - he came up with the term after all. I think he should sue them for copyright infringement. :rolleyes:

Chakar

LostinBlanch wrote:

SAMBBTW it was David McWilliams who did - he came up with the term after all. I think he should sue them for copyright infringement. :rolleyes:

He was the first economist to predict the Celtic Tiger but the phrase was coined by a Morgan Stanley report of August 1994.

To be honest a Rainbow coalition of three or more parties makes the whole thing rather more shaky there's so many interests that are varied for example the Green policies and Labour policies compared to FG's policies.

sceptre

LostinBlanch wrote:

BTW it was David McWilliams who did - he came up with the term after all. I think he should sue them for copyright infringement. :rolleyes:

McWilliams has denied that rumour more than once and I believe his denial as the first recorded use of the term was in a report by Kevin Gardiner for Morgan Stanley in 1994.

(edit: Chakar won that game of Snap)

Shutuplaura

As someone said in a different thread the Rainbow cut corporation taxes while in government.....

LostinBlanch

OK Chakar / Sceptre I stand corrected

Tricity Bendix

samb wrote:

There is a lag period after any policy being implemented and the effect on the economy. So in away FF/PD/FG/L/G can all take some credit.

I really don't think the Green party can take any major credit, seeing as how they've never been given the chance to implement policy.

gilroyb

At the last election FG wanted to repay Eircom shareholders and taxi drivers who lost out. This is hardly evidence of sound economic ability.

The rainbow had very little time in power in the grand scheme of things, and so most of the political credit should go to FF, in the same vein most of the political criticism for the pre tiger situation should lie with them as well.

If FF say FG can't manage the economy they must be right, because they messed it up enough over the years to know what mismanagement really is.

Andrew 83

Voipjunkie wrote:

The notion of low taxes is just that what was done was we switched from moderate direct taxes to high indirect taxes and charges.

Exactly. We now have one of if not the highest levels of indirect taxation in Europe. All academic research suggests that indirect taxation more negatively impacts on the poorer in society and so has been the case here. I don't think the switch should be glorified.

Red Alert

The PPARS system was a disaster. It does not work, it had no clear plan. In fact I have yet to see a concise description of what the system was actually intended to do. Yet we bought the hardware and the software (SAP doesn't come cheap).

The e-Voting machines were pushed through. A bad obsolete product, with an unbelievable number of security holes from a company whose primary interest is retail security equipment. Fianna Fail were actively trying to restore confidence in this broken and buggy technology.

University campuses are being turned into businesses. UCD's transformation has benefited only people such as Hugh Brady (approved and liked by the FF/PD government). A university is a seat of learning and research, not a 'pimp my ride' for whatever tech company comes along.

The LUAS has been a costly mess. The government couldn't figure out where to put it initially - and the retailers in Dublin were able to back the government into a corner. What sort of government allows the likes of Brown Thomas to order it around? Yes it works, but we don't have the bottle to make CIE (which the taxpayer owns and pays for) run it properly and within budget, instead allowing a company of dubious record abroad to do it. Stories of bad safety standards, exhausted drivers and ticket inspectors fearful of thuggish passengers abound.

The Airports are in a total mess. The only properly run airline in this country is Ryanair (and possibly Aer Arann). The DAA acts with impunity in a wasteful fashion. Aer Lingus is being dragged kicking and screaming into privatisation, and nobody can really decide where to go on the issue.

The groceries order has been lifted, but has benefited nobody only Tesco. Tesco's quasi-monopoly has been fostered and tacitly approved of by the government.

The competition authority does not have sharp enough teeth to deal with stubborn and repeat offenders. The consumer authority (insert current moniker for same here) has no teeth at all.

The shocking thing is that none of the above issues would have arisen had we not had the good times we have. The FF/PD's proved incapable of dealing with the economic boom when we finally got it. Shame on them.