Explain Civic SiR, VTI and Type R to me

Newcarneeded

I'm 23 soon, have 5years named driver, full licence for 4 years and buying my own car.

Thinking of a Civic with performance but don't fancy my chances of getting quoted on a Type R! Quinn are perfectly happy to quote me under a grand fully comp on a 2.2 Prelude but wont quote me on a 1.6 type R!!!!

So in terms of performance can someone explain to me what an SiR or VTI produce in terms of bhp and whether these engines are VTEC or what the story is.

Any other suggestions for a performance type car around 1.6 that are insurable would be welcome too!

Cyrus

not too many performance 1.6s, why not go for the prelude, nicer car and isnt really a chav mobile which most civics are

Rudolph Claus

Cyrus wrote:

not too many performance 1.6s

Do you know anything about cars apart from what you read on boards? Figured out how to do an oil change yet? :rolleyes:

Not too many performance 1.6`s,,, huh? What about all the 1.6vti`s which are around 167bhp, 1.6Sir`s are little a more and type r`s near 200bhp. All the models the OP listed are vtec`s. They`re not chav mobiles unless you make them be so. Preludes are class too but the 1.6L`s will be that bit better on fuel and less on tax.

Cyrus

em whatever, what makes you such an expert? i know plenty about cars, a lot more than you by the sounds of things

not many performance 1.6s, obviously i am correct, all the cars in your list are the same one with a different iteration of the same engine, duh! the op was asking is there anything else by another manufacturer as he feels he cant get insured on a type r

the type r is a claimed 185bhp not 200bhp

And whether you chav up a civic or not itll still look like a knack mobile to most people. If you dont care fine but thats the image.

But then your the expert Nuttzy you know all that, are you another civic driver perhaps, wow a civic driver that can change his own oil, jeremy clarkson must be looking over his shoulder, you might have his job next

Wishbone Ash

Cyrus wrote:

em whatever, what makes you such an expert?

Did you not know Cyrus - he has 'land' while some of us live in estates :rolleyes:

Cyrus

well thats a different kettle of fish

landed aristocracy and gets his hands dirty too

a multi faceted and talented individual

should he not be driving a very old land rover defender tho

Wishbone Ash

Cyrus wrote:

well thats a different kettle of fish

landed aristocracy and gets his hands dirty too

a multi faceted and talented individual

should he not be driving a very old land rover defender tho

He's the muppet who thinks it's OK to drive his quad without registration, tax or insurance in public places because they are only "country roads". :rolleyes:
Oh, and his father drives a Beamer.

Cyrus

ive looked back thro some of the threads he has started, my god, the mind boggles.

Anyway i doubt he's as rich as he'd like everyone to believe :rolleyes:

mike65

Keep this on topic thankyou.

Mike.

jayok

Ok, it depends on the Civic Type-R you are talking about:

1. The VTi is a UK / Irish market jobbie and has a 158BHP (yes, 158BHP, or 160PS people, the amount of people that misquote this, not that it really matters) B16A2 engine

2. The SiR is a Jap import model with the same engine at 158BHP.

3. The Mk6 (1998-00) Civic Type-R is a jap import with 182BHP (185PS) output

All of the above are 1.6 litre engines.


The Mk7 (2003-2006) Civic Type-R is a 2 litre 197BHP (200PS) car.

Basically anything with a Type-R in it's name is going to scare insurers at your age. The VTi / SiR is normally quick enough.

[OT] The whole BHP/PS thing has been discussed before, but sufficent to say most owners like to round up. Now just wait for JHMEG to comment on this.[/OT]

jayok

Cyrus wrote:

And whether you chav up a civic or not itll still look like a knack mobile to most people. If you dont care fine but thats the image.

Yep, you really are an ex-spurt!

5500

Nuttzy wrote:

What about all the 1.6vti`s which are around 167bhp, 1.6Sir`s are little a more and type r`s near 200bhp. .

Vti is 158 from Factory.Sir is 168 from factory and type R is 185 as cyrus said but last two's power figures are quoted on 100 ron fuel.

At the OP

Vti's are the euro spec models,Sir's are the jap import versions.If you have the choice go with the Sir as its quicker starting off even though both cars use the same engine (b16a2) so both are Vtec engines.

Externally there the same but theres variations in the interiors.Both come with electrics/aircon as standard.Some Vti's came with leather interior whereas the Sir's tends to be a rotten stripey red colour.

Sir also comes in a II model which meands it has LSD,lsd wasnt an option on Vti's.

Sir feels a slightly more agressive car to drive,Vti's tend to feel more refined as there ecu is mapped differently to the Sir.Both have endless amounts of parts available for modification and some parts are interchangeable from both civic and integra Type R engines.

Some of your other performance options in a 1.6 are

Nissan pulsar/almera vzr and vzr N1
Mitsubishi colt/mirage Mivec
Toyota corolla levin 20v

From the above 3 IMO the civic still comes out tops,All the above are quoted in around 170bhp except for the vzrn1 which is quoted as 197bhp.Ive seen mivecs and levins rolling roaded and they never see there quoted figures,more like 150 - 155 and ive never seen an N1 been rolling roaded here,there fairly rare and id say there's less than 10 if even that in the country.

Preludes are a big heavy car,JDM version Type S has 220bhp,but a tuned civic would keep up with one due to them being so heavy.They were never a popular car to modify either so not many aftermarket parts are available for them.

Rudolph Claus

Cyrus wrote:

em whatever, what makes you such an expert? i know plenty about cars, a lot more than you by the sounds of things

not many performance 1.6s, obviously i am correct, all the cars in your list are the same one with a different iteration of the same engine, duh! the op was asking is there anything else by another manufacturer as he feels he cant get insured on a type r

What are you talking about???? theres plenty of 1.6 performance-ish cars to choose from, including:
Pug 106gti
Saxo (vrs?)
any vtec 1.6
Ctr
Pulsars
any 1.6 Mivec
levins

But sure being the "paper" expert that you are im sure you would have discovered the above cars on google or boards or some car forums at some stage. :rolleyes:

But then your the expert Nuttzy you know all that, are you another civic driver perhaps, wow a civic driver that can change his own oil, jeremy clarkson must be looking over his shoulder, you might have his job next

Actually, if you watch top gear you`ll find that Jeremy Clarkson isnt that all mechanically minded and prefers to talk about and drive cars than that side of things, sound familar? See the episode where they were building the kit car??? Or the episode where they were servicing cars and he couldnt do the baiscs. No, i think you`d definitely suit Clarksons job way better than me.


Arent you the lad that started a thread complaining that your mate went and bought a car (Passat?) without you "looking" it over. In your Bmw thread you were looking for a mechanic or someone with mechanical knowledge to check out a fairly new car for you. So if you cant check out and ensure a new-ish car is in PWO how would you check your friends passat was in decent order. Oh, i see, you`d be there to tell him it was a nice colour and had nice leather seats to help with the resale and then you`d look up a load of **** on the net on that particular car and repeat it to him but not be able to tell if him it it needed a shock replacing/clutch about to go/engine running rough. If your mate thought you`d be of any use to him regarding looking the car over he wouldnt have bought it without you viewing so you obviously dont know as much about cars as you`d like to think and make out. Also, if you knew about cars you wouldnt have 5million threads lookin for "advice" everytime your buying a car.

Lol, i dont mean to sneer your good self in a personal attack, there are loads of people like you, they think they know stuff about cars cause they look up stuff on the net and know all the various versions of engines and power figures and model specs, etc... but when you actually ask them to do something or help with something mechanical/practical like change brake disks, wire up foglights or even service the thing they havent a clue, literally, where to start.

Just out of interest, can you:
Do a basic service(oil/fuel/air filter/plugs)
Replace fuses/bulbs/change a wheel
fit new brake pads/disks?
Wire up foglights?
Reset your ecu?
Wire up an alarm?
Change a timing belt?

Ps: I`d like to point out i dont have a problem with online or paper "experts" in general, but when they start talking crap i have to jump in.

PPs: Anyone that doesnt/cant appreciate a vtec engined civic for its sheer design/engineering/power/reliability, despite the unfortunate skangery image they sometimes get isnt into and doesnt appreciate cars. And to claim they are "into" cars is laughable. There are some performance cars i dont personally like but i can stil lappreciate their engineering and appreciate them for what they are.

Cyrus

okay i shouldnt lower myself but i will

First off, if you class any of the cars mentioned apart from maybe the type r as a performance car, then you obviously havent driven any performance cars, i have. Pug 106/ Saxo VRS :rolleyes:

As for me buying a car, i dropped near 20 grand on a bmw 323 coop, only an idiot would assume he had enought 'knowledge' to look at himself and declare the car sound or not. There are some things you can spot by lifting the bonnet and rubbing your head and listening to how the engine is 'running'. How would you go about checking for weaknesses in the subframe for example? In the end i paid 100 euro to an expert who checked all this for me, sensible decision.

Out of your list:
I can change oil
Change a wheel, replace fuses and bulbs

Im also a mean polisher and waxer.

But guess what i normally pay someone who knows that they are doing to service my car, they'll do it better and i have better things to do with my time.

And i wouldnt touch a car owned by someone who changed the timing belt themselves thats for sure!

You are a very immature young lad who seems to think that because he change the oil in his car that he is some sort of expert. You drive a civic coupe non vtec and i see your looking for spoilers and all sorts of crap, cool!

Get sense will ya really who do you think you are :rolleyes:

Rudolph Claus

Im not and never claimed to be an expert.

C_Breeze

Buy a Glanza

Cyrus

i had a long reply typed out but i wont bother, im lowering myself here.

Just a little advice, you're a young lad (altho probably not that much younger than me maybe) you're immature, your rubbing people up the wrong way all the time here and i would imagine in your day to day life aswell.

Grow up a little, stop trying to talk down to people, and dont boast about being rich, it reflects very badly. Plenty of people have money, its not big or clever to boast about it tho

C_Breeze

to the op: if you can get quoted on the 2.2 vtec prelude , dont even bother considering the vti's sir , as long as the prelude is manual.

i have driven a 2.2 prelude and 1.6vti and although vti is fast for a 1.6 and cheaper tax , the prelude is just a totall better car imo. nicer seating position , nicer looking and can definitely move- and not that you should care but people wont think youre a dirtbad in a prelude, thats my 2 cents

Joeface

C_Breeze wrote:

Buy a Glanza

Dont ever tell someone to buy one of them lol....

go to http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/ and u will be able find most of the specs for the cars your lookin at

JHMEG

Not forgetting the oddball JDM Civic VTI, which is 1.5L SOHC VTEC, producuing around 125PS. The 1.5iLS we had here is not the same car, and not the same engine. It produces around 115PS, and unlike the JDM VTI has no performance VTEC lobe, only economy. The JDM VTI has all 3 modes (econ, normal, performance).

@jayok: Lad, look under your bonnet, that's B not D!

There are other differences between the VTI/Sir/CTR, eg redlines, brakes, wheel hubs, anti roll bars, compression ratios, cam profiles etc. But essentially they VTI is relatively sedate compared to the other two, the CTR is aggressive, and the Sir is somewhere in between.

The Prelude is not the same kind of car at all (it's very comfy), and some people, especially your age, would probably prefer the rawness of the CTR to the Prelude.

@Nutzy & Cyrus: lads you're spoiliing the thread.

jayok

JHMEG wrote:

@jayok: Lad, look under your bonnet, that's B not D!

lol... yep its a B16A2 thankfully not a D16

Gatster

Seriously, get the preulde, a very capable car and I still occasionally miss mine 6 years after I sold it :rolleyes:
I've driven 'hot' civics and the extra few CC's of the Prelude make it a much nicer car to drive without the need to rev the b@llocks of it all the time to make 'normal' progress (but if you like doing that, fair play, go for it).

As for this:

they think they know stuff about cars cause they look up stuff on the net and know all the various versions of engines and power figures and model specs, etc... but when you actually ask them to do something or help with something mechanical/practical like change brake disks, wire up foglights or even service the thing they havent a clue, literally, where to start.

For a long long time there was (obviously) no internet (or no point in it with relation to cars), for most of my adult life in fact. So people learned about cars through books & mags/experience/word of mouth, I'm reasonably sure that a lot of people here were into cars before they were on the internet. Cars used to be much simpler and easier to work on, and people seemed to have less money. In the past few years it's changed quite a bit, people work longer hours etc. and don't have the time/inclination/facility to do even basic work themselves, especially if they can afford not to. It's nice to be able to do it yourself, but it's not a badge of honour. Like Clarkson you can love cars and understand the way they & the physical forces affecting driving work (which IMO makes you a better driver), but just because you can't change the oil doesn't make you less of a petrolhead, or less of a man/woman.

5500

It really depends on which prelude your looking at,the 2.2uk spec had between 185 and 195bhp,In a car as heavy as them you wont be far ahead of a vti/sir civic never mind the type R,The Si jap import is the one to go for if you really wanted one.

Joeface

i think u should go with the prelude also

U could look in to an MR2 Twincam Turbo.. 2ltr i think there about 220bhp and they look great.

cpoh1

I too think the whole ignorance towards the civics and vtec's in general is quite funny. People just assume that because the car is popular with younger and a lot of the time knackers that its a bucket.

Ill ask this question, how many cars are there out there that produce 185ps as standard from a 1.6L n/a car and at the same time propel it to 60mph in around 6-7 seconds, return it over 30mpg around town and still have back seats and room for luggage for at least 2 adults?

The dohc vtec engines are a work of art, the hand finished typeR b18c5 engine is one of the best 4 banger engines ever made.

People are so smug on here and in Ireland in general, sure a 323ci would be comfier and cost more to buy and look better etc, but the thing would be eaten alive by a vti/sir/typeR 1.6L engined car. If people just opened their eyes and enlightened themselves they might be able to appreciate what is a truly fantastic drivers car.

As for the person who said the 106 gti isint a performance car???? One of if not the nicest car ive ever driven, more fun than my best mates evo9...

Vegeta

cpoh1 wrote:

I too think the whole ignorance towards the civics and vtec's in general is quite funny. People just assume that because the car is popular with younger and a lot of the time knackers that its a bucket.

Ill ask this question, how many cars are there out there that produce 185ps as standard from a 1.6L n/a car and at the same time propel it to 60mph in around 6-7 seconds,

Ok my brother has an integra type R with hefty engine modifications which won the 1.7L to 2.0L naturally aspirated quarter mile drag in limerick yesterday and it does 0-60 in 6.12 seconds (as measured yesterday) on normal non racing tires. A 1.6L civic although a fantastic car, I have driven one myself, are not that fast.

Cosmo K

All this talk about about how many bhp you get out of 1.6 is very nice, but why don't you check out the crash test rating for an old Civic? Just for laughs:D

And btw, my T5 has SiR's for breakfast :cool:

Joeface

Vegeta was there a very ugly old Sierra up against ur brothers car yesterday(a white one)


What the hell is a T5 ?

jayok

Cosmo K wrote:

All this talk about about how many bhp you get out of 1.6 is very nice, but why don't you check out the crash test rating for an old Civic? Just for laughs:D

2.5 stars - I believe. Not great but then again, not many small cars of that generation car. Check the newer Civics 2001+ 4-5 stars.

And btw, my T5 has SiR's for breakfast :cool:

Yeah, and an M3 would kick you're T5's ass. Pfff...

To be fair, the T5 is a 2.4 litre 5 cyclinder engine I believe. Putting out around 250PS? You didn't say which T5 is it, but if it's a S60 then I think it's 0-60 is in 6.6-7.0s.

Eat a Civic for breakfast in a straight line I would hope so, pity the Ford, sorry I mean Volvo can't take a bend!

Now if you want to compare like, with like, get a 240BHP S2000 and see who has who for breakfast!

cpoh1

Cosmo K wrote:

All this talk about about how many bhp you get out of 1.6 is very nice, but why don't you check out the crash test rating for an old Civic? Just for laughs:D

And btw, my T5 has SiR's for breakfast :cool:

Great, your 2.4L car that costs about 5 times the price of a 1.6L civic, costs twice as much to tax, twice as much to run on juice and at the end of the day has less bhp per litre than the civic even with a turbo strapped to it and is not in any way much faster than a civic. How can a car with a standard 0-60 time of 7.5 seconds eat a car that is just as quick for breakfast? No offense but the t5 isint that impressive a car when you consider the power people are getting from the same running basic cc/turbo constraints.

How many 1.6L cars out there can be run and maintained for as cheaply as the civic is and still be as fast and as reliable? The 96 shape civic sir comes with an airbag, abs, 262mm vented disks and brake disks at all four corners. Thats a better braking setup than a lot of small to medium sized family cars have nowadays and they weigh a hell of a lot more than the civic too.

JHMEG

cpoh1 wrote:

How many 1.6L cars out there can be run and maintained for as cheaply as the civic is and still be as fast and as reliable? The 96 shape civic sir comes with an airbag, abs, 262mm vented disks and brake disks at all four corners. Thats a better braking setup than a lot of small to medium sized family cars have nowadays and they weigh a hell of a lot more than the civic too.

Don't forget what the Civic was best known for: independent double-wishbone suspension (with front and rear anti-roll bars in the vti) at all 4 corners. To this day a lot of "performace" cars still have MacPherson struts and torsion beams etc.

jayok wrote:

Yeah, and an M3 would kick you're T5's ass. Pfff...

Yeah, and an NSX would spank an M3!

EVO magazine have clocked the 0-60 on the 3-dr VTI @ 7.4 sec. Not bad for a 1.6L car doesn't resort to turbos and superchargers etc.