Explain Civic SiR, VTI and Type R to me

Cosmo K

Yes a Civic ia cheaper to run, and probably even faster (Type R) then my T5, and I still wouldn't want one. Simply because, there a to stressfull to drive. I mean how relaxing is it, to drive a car, that you have to rev up to 6000-8000rpm all the time, to get some performance out of it? I don't want an impressive looking car, I want a fast, comfortable car.

You will understand as you get older guys:cool:

Newcarneeded

I'm going to go for an SIR Civic, now i just want some recommendations about where to buy.

So if you can offer an opinion on where is good, good reputation, good aftersales service (if that isn't way too optimistic) or equally if not more important, who to avoid like the plague.

I'm also planning on having the car looked at by a mechanic before i buy so if anyone knows someone who could do the job and what fee they'd charge, preferably someone with experience of a VTEC engine... Also when i buy the car can anyone recommend where i'd take it to be serviced? OR can you walk into a main honda dealer and will they service it or be way too expensive?

Is there anything i should be particularly looking out for on a 96-99 SIR???

Which year is better to go for, is there a newer version which would come with uprated spec for example?

JHMEG

Cosmo K wrote:

Yes a Civic ia cheaper to run, and probably even faster (Type R) then my T5, and I still wouldn't want one. Simply because, there a to stressfull to drive. I mean how relaxing is it, to drive a car, that you have to rev up to 6000-8000rpm all the time, to get some performance out of it? I don't want an impressive looking car, I want a fast, comfortable car.

You will understand as you get older guys:cool:

So maybe a Prelude would suit you better. Redline is at 7,400.

Cosmo K

Yeah, and an NSX would spank an M3!


Well actually, it wouldn't according to Top Gear

BMW M3 CSL 1.28.0
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5
MG SV 1.28.6
Porsche 911 Carrera S 1.28.9 (very wet)
Mitsubishi Evo VIII 1.28.9
BMW Alpine Z8 1.29.0
Mercedes CL65 1.29
Alfa 3.7 GTA 1.30.0
Subaru Impreza STI 1.30.1
Vauxhall Monaro VXR 1.30.1
Aston Martin DB7 GT 1.30.4
Golf R32 1.30.4
Audi S4 1.30.9
Porsche 911 turbo 1.31.0
Vauxhall VX 220 turbo 1.31.3
Honda NSX Type R 1.31.6


what a surprise the beamer is 3 sec faster

Vegeta

Joeface wrote:

Vegeta was there a very ugly old Sierra up against ur brothers car yesterday(a white one)


What the hell is a T5 ?

It could have been not too sure. I definitely saw the car you are talking about but it may have been in a different class

JHMEG

Newcarneeded wrote:

I'm going to go for an SIR Civic, now i just want some recommendations about where to buy.

So if you can offer an opinion on where is good, good reputation, good aftersales service (if that isn't way too optimistic) or equally if not more important, who to avoid like the plague.

You could and maybe should look at importing one yourself. Cut out the middle man. Alternatively, try Icetronix.. they seem to always have a selection of jdm performance cars, or they could order you in one.

Other than that you're looking at buying privately.

Newcarneeded wrote:

Also when i buy the car can anyone recommend where i'd take it to be serviced? OR can you walk into a main honda dealer and will they service it or be way too expensive?

They're easy to service yourself (oil/plugs/filters). Main dealers will hum and haw about doing it (but will prob do it anyway), but IMHO they're not worth the money. If you're uncomfortable doing it yourself, use a mechanic that has been recommended to you. Experience of the VTEC system is not necessary as that's only a small part of the head (a third cam lobe, a lazy rocker, lockup pins and a spool valve) that never gives trouble.

Newcarneeded wrote:

Is there anything i should be particularly looking out for on a 96-99 SIR???

Which year is better to go for, is there a newer version which would come with uprated spec for example?

Try get one with an LSD. You will need to check the gearbox model number to find out. I don't think there were many modifications thru the years other than cosmetic.

JHMEG

Cosmo K wrote:

Well actually, it wouldn't according to Top Gear

Top Gear is a comedy show... it's not meant to be taken seriously! Their testing is hugely flawed due to wild variations in air temp and weather conditions.

The NSX spanks the M3 in a real test:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2949919259744802395

(I just love the way the NSX overtakes the Lambos in the bends!)

Joeface

very cool vid...the footwork is class

blastman

Cosmo K wrote:

You will understand as you get older guys:cool:

I hope not. As I approach 40, I've no intention of getting rid of my 1.6 VTEC Honda

How old are you, 90?

5500

Newcarneeded wrote:

I'm going to go for an SIR Civic, now i just want some recommendations about where to buy.

So if you can offer an opinion on where is good, good reputation, good aftersales service (if that isn't way too optimistic) or equally if not more important, who to avoid like the plague.

I'm also planning on having the car looked at by a mechanic before i buy so if anyone knows someone who could do the job and what fee they'd charge, preferably someone with experience of a VTEC engine... Also when i buy the car can anyone recommend where i'd take it to be serviced? OR can you walk into a main honda dealer and will they service it or be way too expensive?

Is there anything i should be particularly looking out for on a 96-99 SIR???

Which year is better to go for, is there a newer version which would come with uprated spec for example?

Check the oil levels,Vtec lives on oil,if its never changed or allowed run low then the car will go boom.Give the car a spin,let it warm up and when Vtec engages look in your rear mirror to see if it starts to smoke heavily.

Dont be put off by people saying "they've all been ragged" ect ect,there made to be revved high,when my dad drives mine he cant understand the concept as he's so used to changing gear at like 4k max not 8000!

Older models can have jip with the distributor and occasionaly the Vtec solenoid valve but there no biggies.I do any work on my own car myself but have heard good recomendations of the tuning factory for honda work.

If you can find a late 98 model they have different front bumper/bonet/lights and different rear lights which are cosmetically nicer.Afaik the interiors are all the same in Sir's.

An SirII should have LSD,it will be stamped onto the gearbox looking straight down on it.

Importing yourself is a good option as there expensive enough here,try carzone/autotrader/cbg but theres plenty of them around

cpoh1

Cosmo K wrote:

Yes a Civic ia cheaper to run, and probably even faster (Type R) then my T5, and I still wouldn't want one. Simply because, there a to stressfull to drive. I mean how relaxing is it, to drive a car, that you have to rev up to 6000-8000rpm all the time, to get some performance out of it? I don't want an impressive looking car, I want a fast, comfortable car.

You will understand as you get older guys:cool:

Thats the beauty of the vtec engine Cosmo, when you wan to relax and drive normally as you put it then it behaves as any other car under 5500rpm. When you want to let rip then the power is there higher up the power band. Having power is all in the delivery, ive driven some extremely fast cars in my time but the most fun have all been in smaller cars with engines that rev forever, such a beautiful sound!

JHMEG

jayok wrote:

Now if you want to compare like, with like, get a 240BHP S2000 and see who has who for breakfast!

That's not like-for-like! That's a 2.0L NA 4-cyl engine versus a 2.4L 5-cyl Turbo engine.

Engine-wise a fairer comparison would be the T5 versus a Skyline R34 GTT...

Mmm... like comparing a pair of slippers and a pipe to a fire-breathing monster

Newcarneeded

Been to see a 96 SIR, it's a four door model, looks very clean and i'm tempted. Loooking for 8grand but he'll change the timing belt and anything else required until it passes NCT.

Then there's a 96 SIR in icetronix, haven't been to see it but it has 17's on it, Lexus lights, coilover suspension, full exhaust and induction kit and bucket seats. So there are a few mods in there even though they're looking for 9k for it.

I don't think i'm too bothered whether i get a four door or three door. But the four door is completely standard wheras the three door has a few mods, may be worth the extra money?

The four door has 50k miles on it, dunno what the icetronix car has on it.

Also, while looking at the four door SIR he had a Type R in stock - had to have a look, made a comment about when i'm older and able to insure it etc, but then he said it's standard 1.6 on logbook.

So what's the story then. I've never been stopped by the garda before. But they're more likely to pull you over for a chat driving a type R. If you have your insurance disc in the window can they ask you to produce your insurance? I could insure it as a standard 1.6 or sir but that's treading on dangerous ground. What's the situation as regards insuring a type R on a standard basis....

cpoh1

No no no.

What else will the car be down as on the logbook? Its a 1.6L car. It wont have vtec or anything else like that in the logbook because vtec is name for the variable valve timing in the engine. Pleading ignorance about what it says in the logbook simply wont hold up in a court of law, its up to the owner to insure the car as exactly what it is. Id expect better advice from a company as big as icetronix to be honest.

Both those cars are madly overpriced to be honest (9k for a 10 year old car wtf???), if both are straight off the boat then you can be guarenteed that the mileage isint genuine in either of them also. If I was to choose then the saloon would be the one to go for, 17" wheels, exhaust and induction kit just spell chav if you ask me. Whats the point in having coilovers and then ruining the handling with heavy oversized wheels?

JHMEG

Technically you're not disclosing all the facts to the insurance company. If you were involved in a bad smack, you could find yourself without insurance. I personally wouldn't like to find myself in that situation.

Re the SiRs.. the 3-dr is easier to sell on. Like the Integra Type-R in its 4-dr form, the demand for the 4-dr SiR would be very very low by comparison to the 3-dr.

Mods like Lexus lights etc don't add any value to a car, and are not worth paying "extra" for regardless of what the salesman tries to tell you. In some cases mods will devalue a car and lessen its appeal when it comes to selling it on.

I would keep going. More will come up. Try for a 3-dr black unmolested (ie mod-free) example. Best looking, and most valuable of them all.

EDIT: where did you see the 4-dr? Like cpoh1 says, that's an awful lot of money for a 10 y.o. car. And I would be slighly dubious about mileage. Did you price importing one yourself?

ianobrien

"Stamped as 1.6 on Logbook..."

Of course it is a 1.6 on the logbook, as that it the size of the engine!!! That is just a seller's trick, and is only a statement of fact

You are going to have to mention the SiR, as the insurance company will ask for the trim level.

Before you buy, drive a civic on a twisty, bumpy backroad. I know that on a fast, sweeping smooth road civics are bloody fast, but on a back road, forget it!

I borrowed a buddy's type R and drove it down a backroad. The car was impossible to drive, was very skitty, the back stepped out on bumps in corners, and was bloody dangerous. The car was too hard, and had not enough suspension travel. That means that on a poor road (plenty of them here) the car is uncomfortable and hard to drive on a poor road.

Edit was for me typical poor spelling

JHMEG

ianobrien wrote:

Before you buy, drive a civic on a twisty, bumpy backroad. I know that on a fast, sweeping smooth road civics are bloody fast, but on a back road, forget it

Any car will have trouble cornering on a lumpy sh!te road surface (plenty of them here), and the Civic is no exception.

Rudolph Claus

So what's the story then. I've never been stopped by the garda before. But they're more likely to pull you over for a chat driving a type R. If you have your insurance disc in the window can they ask you to produce your insurance? I could insure it as a standard 1.6 or sir but that's treading on dangerous ground. What's the situation as regards insuring a type R on a standard basis....

Why bother with that rooting, what if your car is stolen and the insurance company realise its not what you said it is. Taking a chance like that, you`d be better taking a "legal" chance with the high excess policies. You dont have to be 25 to get them Excess policies even thought they state you do, if you ring them up they`ll do a deal. My riend has an ITR insured on the Excess policy and they took him at 23 with 2yrs NCB but he had to pay a little extra to make up for the 2yr age deficit.

If you can insure an Sir properly, then do that, a few decent mods will get the power up to type r power, Sir isnt all that far behind anyway.

Personally i prefer the coupes and 3rd civics rather than the saloons. The saloons look dodgy modded with legus lights, and kits etc...
Icetronix are renowned for being real expensive.

Newcarneeded

Just to clarify, it wasn't icetronix that said that about the type R. Haven't been to see their car.

But i suspected as much. Going to keep it all above board. I can get a reasonable quote on a 1.6SIR so i'm going to go with that. Maybe a type R in a few years time.

But yeah, i think 8k is a lot for a ten year old car. And i suspected that the four door would be harder to shift in a couple of years time. i've seen some nice SIR's on CBG but they've all been sold when i rang about them.

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=483514

That was one that really tempted me but was sold when i rang. i'm looking at 8k for a 96 with 50k on the clock, 9750 for a 99 seems better value, even with 60k on the clock. Plus it's a three door so should be easier to sell on after i'm finished with it in a year or two.

http://www.icetronix.com/index.aspx?page=display_carsforsale&id=259
That's the icetronix car there. That's the icetronix car. to be honest i don't like the 17s, i think they're too big for our roads and with the front spoiler and low suspension i'd be worried about clearing ramps etc.

What about an Integra? What would be the SIR equivalent model?

Cyrus

cpoh1 wrote:

I too think the whole ignorance towards the civics and vtec's in general is quite funny. People just assume that because the car is popular with younger and a lot of the time knackers that its a bucket.

Ill ask this question, how many cars are there out there that produce 185ps as standard from a 1.6L n/a car and at the same time propel it to 60mph in around 6-7 seconds, return it over 30mpg around town and still have back seats and room for luggage for at least 2 adults?

The dohc vtec engines are a work of art, the hand finished typeR b18c5 engine is one of the best 4 banger engines ever made.

People are so smug on here and in Ireland in general, sure a 323ci would be comfier and cost more to buy and look better etc, but the thing would be eaten alive by a vti/sir/typeR 1.6L engined car. If people just opened their eyes and enlightened themselves they might be able to appreciate what is a truly fantastic drivers car.

As for the person who said the 106 gti isint a performance car???? One of if not the nicest car ive ever driven, more fun than my best mates evo9...

A 323ci wouldnt be eaten alive by any of them to be fair, the type r would be quicker, but ill sacrifice a second 0-60 for a bit of comfort, and given the bmw rwd set up it handles very well for a biggish coupe.

Ive been in plenty of civic and integra type r's, phases old friends of mine went through a few years back, i just couldnt have one, no comfort what so ever, a thumping headache and having to rev the nuts off the engine. That said the current one isnt bad.

And i said the 106gti isnt a performance car, its a nippy little hatch and a good one at that, so is a ford puma 1.7. Not a performance car tho imo.

5500

Dont mind the icetronix car,his imports normally come in standard and he sticks on aload of tack and then up's the price.Never be fooled into thinking Tenzo parts for a civic are "high performance"

17's will also kill your power off stay well clear,best look imo for civics is JDM style,simple and suttle and your car wont look tacky at all.And trust me you DONT want coilovers on our roads,even driving motorway or city there literally a pain in the arse.

I always liked 4 doors and there not the ugliest around either,I find they feel alot heavier to drive that the hatch and the back end seems very light on corners,likewise with a coupe which is probably the nicest civic you can get but there only in Vti form and about 12k for a 99

Integra's also come in a 1.8 SIR model

Cyrus

@ new car needed

is your heart set on a civic? whats your budget, might be a few other things that interest you?

Also have you thought about just getting whatever you want and getting insured thro 123.ie for 990 with a 4k excess

sorry seems you need to be 25 for that policy

Anyway have you considered a fiat coupe 20v non turbo?

5500

Here's a link to a nice 97,albeit a Vti but with some mods.Worth checking the difference in insurance between vti and sir,sir at the time was 400 extra for me

http://www.manic-motorz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13041

Silver 96 sir

http://www.manic-motorz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13225

Newcarneeded

No not set on a civic at all.

I have a budget of circa ten k. Would ideally like to come in at say 8k, but willing to go up to ten if i feel im getting better value. so far, 8k for a ten year old car which is entirely standard and would need an alarm and possibly a new set of alloys is big enough money.

But at the same time i dont want something that has been heavily modified. IDeally if i could find an SIR that is 3 door, around 50 to 60 genuine miles on the clock, a sunroof model, nice 15/16 alloys and tinted windows I'd be happy. I don't think i want a lowered car. Think the roads are too crap out my way, the ride would be too hard.

Im after an sir because of the vtec. If i want i can drive it in the low revs but when i want to go quick... here comes the VTEC.

I'm also considering a pulsar VZR. Any opinions on which would be a better buy?

I've considered a prelude also. But im turning 23, not in the best paid job in the world, so a 2litre or 2.2litre with the big road tax and big fuel bills may not be the brightest idea in the world at my age and salary! Flip side is i can get an older prelude,

http://www.cbg.ie/Car_detail.asp?CBGID=508468&ID=780592&NumPics=2&Make=Honda&Model=Prelude&frmFilter=All

and with the money i'd save on the purchase price of the civic just put it towards running the beast, but

http://www.cbg.ie/Car_detail.asp?CBGID=459388&ID=729240&NumPics=3&Make=Honda&Model=Prelude&frmFilter=All#

then if i bought a newer model prelude that already costs 8k i'd have nothing left to run it.

I think for running costs my best bet is a 1.6 vtec engine. i can cope with the insurance and tax and fuel on that. i think 2 litre is a bridge too far.

i wont do a high mileage, less than 10k per annum, so would the running costs on the prelude be that much greater than an SIR?

What is the performance like from the prelude as opposed to an SIR??? Might check out a VZR in DCI soon?

http://www.cbg.ie/Car_detail.asp?CBGID=365931&ID=611053&NumPics=2&Make=Nissan&Model=Pulsar%20VZR&frmFilter=All

What do ye think?

There's another one in Cork which looks nice, long way to go to have a look though!

http://www.cbg.ie/Car_detail.asp?CBGID=415369&ID=678770&NumPics=3&Make=Nissan&Model=Pulsar%20VZR&frmFilter=All

kdevitt

Cyrus wrote:

A 323ci wouldnt be eaten alive by any of them to be fair, the type r would be quicker, but ill sacrifice a second 0-60 for a bit of comfort, and given the bmw rwd set up it handles very well for a biggish coupe.

Agree completely - I've been through my fair share of Civics (4 Civics & a CRX) and they are great cars - VTEC system gets high HP figures alright, but sacrifices torque to get it. A 323ci would definitely not be embarrassed by any of the Civics (not counting the newer shaper type R) and at motorway speeds would pull away smoothly.

I think the Pug 106 is a good option - still a nice looking car, quite nippy too - and the the chassis appears very well balanced from what I've seen on track. One guy took one out at Mondello on a BMW track day and was holding his own against the lower powered stuff.

If you can get a clean Civic then go for it though. Quite a few molested models floating around now though, so avoid the ****e.

JHMEG

The Pulsar with variable valve timing (Neo-VVL, iirc), like the MIVEC Mirage/Cyborgs and the Levin/Truenos, was never exported outside of Japan (I think the US got a few MIVECs).

The variable valve timing DOHC VTEC SiR and CTR were brought in in VTI form, as well as loads of imports of actual SiRs and CTRs. The upside to this is that the cars are well known and parts and knowledge are easy to come by.

The SiR II has been shown to be slightly faster than the Cyborgs, Levins and VZRs (due to earlier delivery of peak torque, and slightly better gearing), but I think you'd want to be a professional driver to actually replicate that.

The upside of the VZR is that it's more unique than the Civic, but then again the normal Almeras/Pulsars are everywhere, so the uniqueness is only to the trained eye. Ditto for the CTR-type VZR, the 200PS VZR-N1 (but only 200 made so it's a very rare). The styling of the Pulsar is not to everyone's taste either!

The last time I looked at the MIVEC Mirage/Cyborgs they were cheaper than the rest which I assumed was because they're not as popular.

If you have 10k to spend, you probably won't do better performance-wise than an Integra Type-R. Tho there are a lot of them about, mostly Japanese imports.

If you'd like something that goes like stink, but is lovely to look at too, a Civic Coupe VTI is not a bad choice.

Cyrus

If your looking at normally aspirated engines fuel consumption (esp given only 10k per year) is not a big cost factor

Nor is road tax relatively speaking

A quick scan on carzone:

Cheap Fiat coupe non turbo
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=470660

newer:
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=355743

Nice BMW 318is
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=485550

Mitsu FTO

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=492767

Nice 306-gti6 (nice car, and wont give much away to a civic r)

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=475187

Pug 406 coupe (beautiful)

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=485034

Alfa 156?? - loads about, a decent search would get a good one with low miles and leather etc, 2 litre is quick too. If looked after they are a good car, if not it could fall apart

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=420242

Alfa gtv (stunning)

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=464707

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=457922


just some food for though, loads of cars in your price range, but if you like the civic best, look for a good unmolested one and go for it

C_Breeze

5500

Newcarneeded wrote:

No not set on a civic at all.

I have a budget of circa ten k. Would ideally like to come in at say 8k, but willing to go up to ten if i feel im getting better value. so far, 8k for a ten year old car which is entirely standard and would need an alarm and possibly a new set of alloys is big enough money

If you search hard enough you could find a 99 vti for 8.5k,theres lots of uk imports to be had and there still a vtec and the same engine as the Sir bar some internal differences to give the extar 10bhp that noone seems to be able to pinpoint

The only thing that HAS to be looked for on uk civics is rust,some of them are eaten alive by it but some are very clean

Newcarneeded wrote:

I'm also considering a pulsar VZR. Any opinions on which would be a better buy?

I've considered a prelude also. But im turning 23, not in the best paid job in the world, so a 2litre or 2.2litre with the big road tax and big fuel bills may not be the brightest idea in the world at my age and salary! Flip side is i can get an older prelude,

Expect to pay the same if not more for a Vzr as a civic,The good cars but performance parts arent anywhere as easy to come across as the honda.As for the older prelude id be thinking about how hard it'd be to sell on when your sick of it,there doesnt seem to be as much intrest in them whereas civics seem to be getting dearer by the day.

You'd really need to drive a prelude aswell as civic to decide for yourself,comparision wise i find the prelude abit tanky.I like there looks and they have grunt without a doubt but the hatch civic just seems a better driving car.